Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Ian_K · 11-04-2010 04:28PM

timetogetfit wrote: »

United need 7 first team players of world class ability

1.To replace VDS who is too old and wont last long more Has one more year left in him
2.A world class right back,neville too old,oshea tries his best but not good enough,rafael too eratic Rafael will be a year older, i'm happy enough with him
3.A world class centre back-Rio is not the paler he was and his back problems are only going to get worse Jonny Evans more than capable
4.creative midfielder to replace scholes Agree
5.Right winger-as much as valencia tries he is very one dimensional and ultimatley not good enough Disagree, arguably our best player this year apart from Rooney
6.left winger,giggs is too old and gone past it,nani is not good enough Agree
7.world class striker to replace berba who is a waste of space and to support rooney Agree

One or two centre midfielders (depending on Hargreaves), and a left winger/ striker would be sufficent

blinding · 11-04-2010 04:31PM

If you could only pick one and the choice was between Tevez and Berbatov which would you pick.

I suppose one problem though is Rooney and Tevez play pretty much the same position.

redout · 11-04-2010 04:32PM

TheDoc wrote: »

By the by, since its hard to get stats to find to show jut how efficent berbatov at playing the liknup man, I found these stats that might just prove some people wrong.

Of course stats dont say everything, but it does, clearly show, how Berbatov has performed since joining, and has been, in part, more productive for united then Carlos Tevez

This stats cover goals scored, assists, and a few more

Carlos Tevez – 07/08 – First season
2685 minutes
14 goals (9th highest in the league)
1 goal per 192 minutes (2 hours 72 minutes)
7 assists (18th highest in the league)
1 goal scored/created per 128 minutes (2 hours 8 minutes)

Dimitar Berbatov – 08/09 – First season
2643 minutes
9 goals (25th highest in the league)
1 goal per 294 minutes (4 hours 54 minutes)
10 assists (2nd highest in the league)
1 goal scored/created per 139 minutes (2 hours 19 minutes)

Carlos Tevez – 08/09 – Second season
1856 minutes
5 goals (53rd highest in the league)
1 goal per 371 minutes (6 hours 11 minutes)
3 assists (74th highest in the league)
1 goal scored/created per 232 minutes (3 hours 52 minutes)

Dimitar Berbatov – 09/10 – Second season (as of February 1st)
1161 minutes
7 goals (11th highest in the league)
1 goal per 166 minutes (2 hours 46 minutes)
4 assists (23rd highest in the league)
1 goal scored/created per 106 minutes (1 hour 46 minutes)

Conclusion
- Berbatov’s contribution this season, in terms of goals and assists is better than last, and better than both Tevez’s seasons at United.
- Berbatov’s contribution this season, in terms of goals alone, is better than last, and better than both Tevez’s seasons at United.
- Tevez’s first season at United, in terms of goals alone, was far better than Berbatov’s first season at United.
- Tevez’s first season at United, in terms of goals and assists, was marginally better than Berbatov’s first season at United.
- Tevez’s second season at United, in terms of goals alone, was worse than both Berbatov’s seasons at United.
- Tevez’s second second at United, in terms of goals and assists, was worse than both Berbatov’s seasons at United.

Just fruit for thought lads, fruit for thought

Also, interestingly, Sky sports databases have Dimitar Berbatov in the top 5 United players to "over most ground" on occasions were he played over 60 minutes.

In games he played over 70 minutes, 95% of the time he appeared in the top 2 for most ground covered.

Only Darren Fletcher and Ji sung park cover more ground. I know it doesnt say much for his hustle and bustle, but it does say, the lad gets around the pitch.

Them stats only cover premier league games and therefore are not an accurate indication.

parker kent · 11-04-2010 04:32PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Milner is also another player I would like us to be looking at - with the versatility to play both wings, through the centre and at full back - a better version of Park.

He isn't good enough. He is all about energy, getting around the place etc. His ability to keep the ball is woeful. United need somebody who will actually keep the ball.

Peyton Manning · 11-04-2010 04:32PM

Berbatov is a better player, but Tevez is a better fit for our best formation. Go figure

parker kent · 11-04-2010 04:35PM

blinding wrote: »

If you could only pick one and the choice was between Tevez and Berbatov which would you pick.

I suppose one problem though is Rooney and Tevez play pretty much the same position.

Tevez every single time. He has flaws but does not go missing when it matters. Berbatov does not have the mentality to perform when it matters. Tevez on the otherhand thrived on the big occasions. There are better players around, but I'd much rather him to Berbatov. Like I said in the game thread today, he does not suit the United style.

redout · 11-04-2010 04:36PM

This is a current statistical analysis of the season

TheDoc · 11-04-2010 04:36PM

redout wrote: »

Them stats only cover premier league games and therefore are not an accurate indication.

True, but beratovs stats for the CL are also higher. But being as United go with usually one up front, I think its a mute point, and well I dont think taking the cups into account are much use.

Tevez did have pace and it was a great injection of energy in the united team when he played, but also remember he played in a side with ronaldo which also caused for severe energy going forward.

If looking at united today showed anything, is that the centre midfield is severely starved of creativity.

Gibson, Carrick,Fletcher,Anderson,Hargreaves.

Hard work, will move alot around the pitch, but I wouldnt rely on any of them to split a defence witha deft pass

herbieflowers · 11-04-2010 04:37PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Realistically (or not depending on your opinion) I would like and be happy enough with the following first team for next season:

..............VDS

Raf
Rio
Vidic----Evra

----Fletcher--Hargreaves
Valencia----Gourcuff----Nani
Rooney

Changes I would like.... Banega in Hargreaves position, Rodwell would be another player I would like there. Di Maria in Nani's (or swapping about with Nani with Nani swapping with Valencia).

Milner is also another player I would like us to be looking at - with the versatility to play both wings, through the centre and at full back - a better version of Park.

EDIT: The important thing for the above team I have put out, is the bench/squad that supports it. The problems this season have been having no replacement for Fletcher in midfield, no replacement for Rooney up front and no real creative player in midfield when Scholes/Giggs are either not playing or off form. I think Scholes could be a very good player for us next season as a sub/impact player. Playing in that position I have Gourcuff - remove the need for him to track back much and just free him to roam and look for passes. I reckon it would be good use of him. Same regarding Giggs in that position. A left footed option on the wing to sub in/compete with Nani would be needed too.

As optimistic as this post is, I just can't see Fergie bringing in 3-4 quality players.

Defensively, I don't think there's much to be done, unless Vidic heads to Spain. There's Smalling, Evans, Brown and the da Silva twins, even Neville if he decides to stay on.

The wings: can't see him adding anyone. Nani and Valencia, Park for cover and he'll hope to bring Obertan on.

Up front, I doubt he'll get rid of Berbatov. Primarily because of his resale value. With him, Rooney, Owen, Hernandez as well as Macheda, Diouf and Welbeck having had another season to develop, I'd highly doubt he'd bring in a top-class striker. May punt for a mid-range goalscorer.

In the centre you have Fletcher. Finding a partner for him someone with a bit of creativity, is what's needed.

Mitch Connor · 11-04-2010 04:53PM

herbieflowers wrote: »

In the centre you have Fletcher. Finding a partner for him someone with a bit of creativity, is what's needed.

Depends on the formation we plan on using though, as wo what type of midfielder we can/should go for.

Iff the formation is 442 we need a player like Carrick (but better) Someone who can create and has good passing, but will do the defensive stuff as well - Fletcher is not a DM and we'd lose what makes him important if we asked him to concentrate on that, so his midfield partner in a 442 needs to be able to do a bit of everything. Who is there that fits the bill? De Rossi from Roma maybe? Banega from Valencia? On top of that, you'd probably need to sign a top striker to play alongside rooney, with Berbatov being sold.

In a 451 we can have a DM behind fletcher, allowing Fletcher to sprint around and get stuck in as he does. Hargreaves would be a good option for that position, but he is really the only option in the squad for that role, and we don't know what will happen with him with regards to his fitness. B]EDIT[/B So you are looking at bringing in a DM - Rodwell would be a good option here imo. From abroad I would like Yaya Toure, if Baca could be got to sell. Who else is there? Miguel Veloso is often touted, but is it all hype?[/EDIT] Then we need a AMC ahead of them. Within the squad we don't have a player I would like to see there week in week out - not Park, Scholes, Giggs. Rooney could play there but then we are sacrificing him again - and we'd need to sign a striker (Benzema/Villa etc) It is the position Petrucci plays, but he is not ready to take that role week in week out. From outside the club, I'd be looking at Modric and Gourcuff as two options.

Whatever way we go, it would cost a lot of money to fix the united side and get it right up there again.

keane2097 · 11-04-2010 05:00PM

I laced him last season, but if I could swap Tevez for Berbatov now I would do so in a heartbeat.

Berbatov is a very good player, but has no role he can effectively play at United.

Mitch Connor · 11-04-2010 05:03PM

keane2097 wrote: »

I laced him last season, but if I could swap Tevez for Berbatov now I would do so in a heartbeat.

Berbatov is a very good player, but has no role he can effectively play at United.

I agree - as much as I criticised Tevez last season, Berbatov just is not effective for United, though I see him as the better player of the two.

keane2097 · 11-04-2010 05:07PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I agree - as much as I criticised Tevez last season, Berbatov just is not effective for United, though I see him as the better player of the two.

That again depends on the system. Tevez would be a far superior player in general in the system United play.

abouttobebanned · 11-04-2010 05:09PM

Is berbatov even worth 2mil?

keane2097 · 11-04-2010 05:12PM

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Is berbatov even worth 2mil?

Ah be reasonable. He's an excellent player, he's just not suited to United's system.

He'd be worth a nice amount to the right team.

adox · 11-04-2010 05:17PM

The league was lost already last week, and disappointing as it was today I didn't think the performance was too bad. Abut toothless up front but the service wasn't great. United totally controlled the game without ever creating a lot of clear cut chances.

Trying to look at things rationally, plus points for me this season were:

our wide players. Valencia at the start of the season didn't impress me at all, but he has one me over. He has great pace and strength and can deliver a great cross. He also has great positional awareness and does his defensive duties so well.

Nani. Now I know he's still a bit erratic, and I've been one of his biggest critics over the last few seasons, but I think he's come on leaps and bounds this season and really matured as a player. I see these two being regular starters next season with Obertan as cover.

Downsides. Well it's obvious to everyone, central midfield.
No Hargreaves again. Anderson going backwards again and then the serious injury. Carrick, who I've never rated, managing to look even worse this season to the point where you'd wonder has he a future at old Trafford.
Scholes coming to the end of his career and still probably our overall midfielder. Fletcher has had another great season, but he is what he is. You need someone beside him to do most if not all of the creating.
Park for all his heart and effort is at best a squad player. The fact that he has become a regular only magnifies uniteds midfield problems.

Defensively we look fine in all positions, including cover, bar the goalkeeper.

A couple of midfielders would be perfect in the summer or at least one rely creative midfielder.

Finally, I'm surprised united challenged as well as they did this season, although having got themselves in prime positions in the last couple of weeks it's all come tumbling down in a couple of weeks.

Overall I think I could count on one hand the number of times united have played really well. It says a lot about the quality of the top four this season that united challenged for so long.

With city having the season they are so far , if they were to get the last champions league place, with their finances, they really could attract some world class players and maybe break into the top three next season.

CR 7 · 11-04-2010 05:17PM

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Is berbatov even worth 2mil?

Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

PHB · 11-04-2010 05:23PM

I'd still rather Berbatov to Tevez. Tevez was very poor imo when not playing without Rooney. Ultimately, he couldn't deal with rotation. As such, he couldnt make it at United.

Berbatov's problem seems to be he can't deal with the United system, he's not adjusting. Although it doesnt help that Fergie doesnt really know what he wants to do with him.

Either way, anyone who thinks that Berbatov was the problem today frankly must not have watched the first half. The problem was in midfield, not up front. Berbatov is just an easy target because frankly in the second half he behaved like a spolit child. It's easy to talk about Tevez because he runs himself into the ground in the team. However, that is frankly, an incredibly simplistic understanding of football. It's just easy to understand and identify effort, but it isn't the important thing. He wasn't, and isn't, the problem.

I love how nobody talks about the absolutely outstanding play that resulted in 2 great chances for Valencia, particuarly the through ball in the middle. Instead they talk about how he sat on the ground in the second half.

abouttobebanned · 11-04-2010 05:27PM

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

I think you're deluded tbh

me-skywalker · 11-04-2010 05:32PM

Moutinho Moutinho Moutinho Moutinho Moutinho

Flexible to play in a 442 and a 433 and a 451.... CM, CDM, ACM

buy buy buy

CR 7 · 11-04-2010 05:55PM

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I think you're deluded tbh

Me too, sorry, I took 6 pills instead of 4.

You're completely right, Berbatov is worth £2 million.

Now that it's all been cleared up, you can stop talking.

3hn2givr7mx1sc · 11-04-2010 06:01PM

PHB wrote: »

I'd still rather Berbatov to Tevez. Tevez was very poor imo when not playing without Rooney. Ultimately, he couldn't deal with rotation. As such, he couldnt make it at United.

Berbatov's problem seems to be he can't deal with the United system, he's not adjusting. Although it doesnt help that Fergie doesnt really know what he wants to do with him.

Either way, anyone who thinks that Berbatov was the problem today frankly must not have watched the first half. The problem was in midfield, not up front. Berbatov is just an easy target because frankly in the second half he behaved like a spolit child. It's easy to talk about Tevez because he runs himself into the ground in the team. However, that is frankly, an incredibly simplistic understanding of football. It's just easy to understand and identify effort, but it isn't the important thing. He wasn't, and isn't, the problem.

I love how nobody talks about the absolutely outstanding play that resulted in 2 great chances for Valencia, particuarly the through ball in the middle. Instead they talk about how he sat on the ground in the second half.

Wha?

Kev_ps3 · 11-04-2010 06:06PM

PHB wrote: »

I'd still rather Berbatov to Tevez. Tevez was very poor imo when not playing without Rooney. Ultimately, he couldn't deal with rotation. As such, he couldnt make it at United.

Berbatov's problem seems to be he can't deal with the United system, he's not adjusting. Although it doesnt help that Fergie doesnt really know what he wants to do with him.

Either way, anyone who thinks that Berbatov was the problem today frankly must not have watched the first half. The problem was in midfield, not up front. Berbatov is just an easy target because frankly in the second half he behaved like a spolit child. It's easy to talk about Tevez because he runs himself into the ground in the team. However, that is frankly, an incredibly simplistic understanding of football. It's just easy to understand and identify effort, but it isn't the important thing. He wasn't, and isn't, the problem.

I love how nobody talks about the absolutely outstanding play that resulted in 2 great chances for Valencia, particuarly the through ball in the middle. Instead they talk about how he sat on the ground in the second half.

Your mad, Tevez has been one the the seasons top strikers, Berbatov has been one of the worst.

herbieflowers · 11-04-2010 06:06PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Depends on the formation we plan on using though, as wo what type of midfielder we can/should go for.

Iff the formation is 442 we need a player like Carrick (but better) Someone who can create and has good passing, but will do the defensive stuff as well - Fletcher is not a DM and we'd lose what makes him important if we asked him to concentrate on that, so his midfield partner in a 442 needs to be able to do a bit of everything. Who is there that fits the bill? De Rossi from Roma maybe? Banega from Valencia? On top of that, you'd probably need to sign a top striker to play alongside rooney, with Berbatov being sold.

In a 451 we can have a DM behind fletcher, allowing Fletcher to sprint around and get stuck in as he does. Hargreaves would be a good option for that position, but he is really the only option in the squad for that role, and we don't know what will happen with him with regards to his fitness. B]EDIT[/B So you are looking at bringing in a DM - Rodwell would be a good option here imo. From abroad I would like Yaya Toure, if Baca could be got to sell. Who else is there? Miguel Veloso is often touted, but is it all hype?[/EDIT] Then we need a AMC ahead of them. Within the squad we don't have a player I would like to see there week in week out - not Park, Scholes, Giggs. Rooney could play there but then we are sacrificing him again - and we'd need to sign a striker (Benzema/Villa etc) It is the position Petrucci plays, but he is not ready to take that role week in week out. From outside the club, I'd be looking at Modric and Gourcuff as two options.

Whatever way we go, it would cost a lot of money to fix the united side and get it right up there again.

I agree with all of this. A versatile central midfielder who can play in a 4-4-2 is what's needed. I'm not sure who that player is. It may even mean that United play, as their preferred system (which seems to have been the case for the big games this season anyway), 4-5-1 / 4-3-3. Rooney, Nani, Valencia as the front three. Fletcher and two others filling the middle three. One of them has to be creative ie new signing.

4-5-1, in the more defensive sense, gives you a few more options. You can play Fletcher, and one of Anderson / Carrick / Gibson / Park. I don't think in that system an out-and-out defensive midfielder is needed. Playing 4-5-1, in the defensive sense, is more about bodies and energy. Anderson, or Park, would give you that, like the Chelsea game at Stamford Bridge earlier in the season.

The Muppet · 11-04-2010 06:08PM

keane2097 wrote: »

Ah be reasonable. He's an excellent player, he's just not suited to United's system.

He'd be worth a nice amount to the right team.

Have to say I'm a big berbatov fan but I am coming around to this line of thinking. I'd love to keep him for his ability to open up defences with his control and skill but we do need someone that's going to stick the ball in the net when Rooney is out and thats not going to be Berbatov.

The Muppet · 11-04-2010 06:10PM

herbieflowers wrote: »

I agree with all of this. A versatile central midfielder who can play in a 4-4-2 is what's needed. I'm not sure who that player is. It may even mean that United play, as their preferred system (which seems to have been the case for the big games this season anyway), 4-5-1 / 4-3-3. Rooney, Nani, Valencia as the front three. Fletcher and two others filling the middle three. One of them has to be creative ie new signing.

4-5-1, in the more defensive sense, gives you a few more options. You can play Fletcher, and one of Anderson / Carrick / Gibson / Park. I don't think in that system an out-and-out defensive midfielder is needed. Playing 4-5-1, in the defensive sense, is more about bodies and energy. Anderson, or Park, would give you that, like the Chelsea game at Stamford Bridge earlier in the season.

I see city linked with Fabergas in todays sundays, It's not going to happen but he's the type of player United need.

abouttobebanned · 11-04-2010 06:15PM

Jaysus. People on the Internet are funny.

Ok so I was sarcastic about berbatov but some united fans need to get a grip. I've been a season ticket holder at old trafford so my love for team won't be questioned here by keyboard warriors.

Ferguson was, for want of a better word, idiotic paying that sort of money for berbatov. IMO he never proved himself as anymore than a le tissier wannabe.

Scholes neville and giggs would be sent packing with a huge thanks by any other manager and I think the longer you're with a club the harder your job becomes.

He's woken up to carrick a couple
of seasons too late and his post match comments are becoming harder and harder to justify.

I'll state the obvious and say that man utd, the team we know and love, is in decline...not as badly as dunphy would have you believe but it's going to get worse unless we get in a manager who
can see the wood for the trees.

Love the man but we all know that there's no improvement left there

herbieflowers · 11-04-2010 06:16PM

The Muppet wrote: »

I see city linked with Fabergas in todays sundays, It's not going to happen but he's the type of player United need.

I agree, and I think talk of massive overhauls is a little churlish. Yes, some players are past their sell-by date or can't exert the same influence they once did, but I believe there's enough young talent at the club to fill these gaps. Apart from a creative central player, which the club seems to lack.

I still think the squad is good and I'm hopeful that players such as Gibson, Welbeck, etc. can make their mark next season.

keane2097 · 11-04-2010 06:18PM

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I'll state the obvious and say that man utd, the team we know and love, is in decline...not as badly as dunphy would have you believe but it's going to get worse unless we get in a manager who
can see the wood for the trees.

Love the man but we all know that there's no improvement left there

I think this is a little too much doom and gloom tbh.

Two quality CM signings would make us a world class outfit next year...

Mitch Connor · 11-04-2010 06:18PM

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Jaysus. People on the Internet are funny.

Ok so I was sarcastic about berbatov but some united fans need to get a grip. I've been a season ticket holder at old trafford so my love for team won't be questioned here by keyboard warriors.

Ferguson was, for want of a better word, idiotic paying that sort of money for berbatov. IMO he never proved himself as anymore than a le tissier wannabe.

Scholes neville and giggs would be sent packing with a huge thanks by any other manager and I think the longer you're with a club the harder your job becomes.

He's woken up to carrick a couple
of seasons too late and his post match comments are becoming harder and harder to justify.

I'll state the obvious and say that man utd, the team we know and love, is in decline...not as badly as dunphy would have you believe but it's going to get worse unless we get in a manager who
can see the wood for the trees.

Love the man but we all know that there's no improvement left there

He has built many successful United sides, I see no real reason to think he can't do so again. He has moved players on before in order to make the changes need. I think he sees what we all see, it is whether he is actually able to do anything about it. Hopefully he can.

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