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Is it selfish of a parent to force their religion onto their child

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Comments

  • #272
    iUseVi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Cheers guys, that explains alot.

    Glad to help. From what I've read of your recent posts, you seem to take a more moderate view of hell than the standard line, so there's hope for you yet. :P I don't know what your childhood was like, or if you care to share, but I'm sure you can imagine that for many young children the standard view of hell is quite terrifying. It's these sort of aspects that would tempt me to use words like "abuse".


  • #273
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    sublunar wrote: »
    do the mods end threads when they think they've played out or do they just keep going...?
    The latter. Unless there's an outbreak of handbags.


  • #274
    mikhail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    cypharius wrote: »
    That assumes that the child is smart enough to think for themselves.
    And that one example is sufficient proof of the general condition.


  • #275
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    JimiTime wrote: »
    It also seems to lend weight to Jackass' earlier point about a parent teaching their child their religion does not inhibit them from making a choice when they get older.

    Go onto the wedding forum and check out the threads regarding people who don't really want a church wedding but don't want to fall out with family, in the parenting forum from people who don't want to get their kids christened but are scared their parents will never talk to them again, PI with young people scared to broach the subject of their own feelings about belief with those closest to them for fear of being thrown out or never spoken to again. Over the years they come up with alarming regularity.

    If it was all stories of enlightened parents delighted their kids are exploring their spiritual options then I doubt this thread would even exist, unfortunately there appears to be an awful lot of people who place their own beliefs in higher regard than those of their nearest and dearest - and that's definitely an issue, especially for those on the receiving end.


  • #276
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Parents can do what they want, let them teach and be a shining example of thier religious and spiritual belives at home and raise thier children accordingly and take thier children to be a part of thier relgious community. No problem with that but when you have teachers doing that on the behalf of parents who aren't arsed, thats something which needs to be stopped.


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  • #277
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,616 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    No problem with that but when you have teachers doing that on the behalf of parents who aren't arsed, thats something which needs to be stopped.
    That's my big beef with the system.

    I stated at the outset in this thread I have no real issue with parents imparting their beliefs on their kids - it's the ones that 'outsource' and never give it a second thought that really piss me off as it they'd be the first on their high horses if someone suggested removing religion from classrooms.


  • #278
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Erren Music


    Some posters have an amazing ability to produce quantity over quality every time, and this is repeated in all the threads they post on, all their posts in this thread could have been condensed into 2 paragraphs.

    i will buy a beer for anyone who condenses it the best.
    JimiTime wrote: »
    Christians tend to evangelise, and share the good news of Christ though. A true relationship with God is not coerced, so parents are free to choose to accept or reject the message themselves and in turn, those they are guardians of.

    Seriously, this is the best you can come up with. This is A+A.
    sublunar wrote: »
    agreed. if religious folk truly wanted their offspring to find the "truth", as they see it, by themselves, they'd wait until they hit 18 to hand them a bible.

    Well said.
    sublunar wrote: »
    all the answers are there, and god will smite you .

    god loves you, out of his top 10 list of personal hate's, calling him names is worse than murder, says it all.
    JimiTime wrote: »
    Maybe all these arguements are simply treating symptoms and not the root. I.E. You have no idea what having a relationship with God is.

    We do, it's a delusion.
    religion = cult
    unable to see the reality that believing in an unacountable book and basing your life on it is madness.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Even the word "indoctrination" is mere sensationalism. It's evident that nobody actually believes it is child abuse, because if they did, they would deem it worthy of reporting to higher authorities.

    Well judging by what those higher authorities have done with the reports in the current situation!
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Indoctrination would seem to me to be drilling something into someones head repeatedly for several hours a day by memorisation without question. .... but the term is inaccurate when describing the average education that people get about Christianity.
    Jakkass wrote: »
    For several hours repeatedly? Drilling it into the skull?

    Brilliant, I was brought up catholic.

    Went to mass at least 60 times a year from age 2 to 11. Thats over 500 repetitions. The words are still in my brain.
    Jakkass wrote: »

    A few definitions:
    "teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically "

    Guilty

    "Indoctrination is the process of ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned."

    Guilty

    Definition stands and is valid.

    Jakkass wrote: »
    Cutting to the core. Yes, I agree with you here. I'm personally skeptical of infant baptism.
    Great. Baptism at 18 then.
    sublunar wrote: »

    i'd like to see religious indoctrination acknowledged as the psychological and emotional abuse that it is, but i know it never will be as how could it ever be enforced? too orwellian to imagine...

    Fully in agreement with you, well said
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Christians are very open to allowing their children the freedom to ask these questions. I have yet to see the unquestioning, uncritical side in this.

    That is just not true.
    Jakkass wrote: »

    I'm basing my viewpoint particularly on the over three years since I consciously decided that Christianity was reasonable.

    How did you decide that.
    iUseVi wrote: »

    Case A: People tell their children Santa exists and flies around the world in one night to deliver gifts to them - this is believed by millions.

    Case B: People tell their children that God exists and Jesus had to die to forgive their "sins".

    Why do you think that in case B children will really be able to distinguish the truth, when we all know from case A that they are gullible as hell.

    The same problem occurs today in our primary schools. Our children are given lessons in 93% of all our primary schools about a fictional character and his crazy father as if it is FACTUAL.


  • #279
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    rohatch?

    In all seriousness Erren Music, you've effectively made up what you are going to say before I've even said anything at all. Your response to elements of my posts on this thread, aren't really that open to question.

    You've made the predictable claim that Christianity is "fiction" without any reason for doing so, claiming that things I have posted are "not true" without any reason, claiming that believing the Bible and living ones life by it is madness again without any reason.

    All you're doing is dogmatising without giving any reason for what you are saying. Whereas many of the others, namely Wicknight, iUseVi, Dades, robindch, and Ickle Magoo amongst any others I've left out have actually contributed some interesting points.


  • #280
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Go onto the wedding forum and check out the threads regarding people who don't really want a church wedding but don't want to fall out with family, in the parenting forum from people who don't want to get their kids christened but are scared their parents will never talk to them again, PI with young people scared to broach the subject of their own feelings about belief with those closest to them for fear of being thrown out or never spoken to again. Over the years they come up with alarming regularity.

    If it was all stories of enlightened parents delighted their kids are exploring their spiritual options then I doubt this thread would even exist, unfortunately there appears to be an awful lot of people who place their own beliefs in higher regard than those of their nearest and dearest - and that's definitely an issue, especially for those on the receiving end.

    Actually, I think its the other way around. There are an awful lot of people who are willing to place the beliefs of their nearest and dearest in higher regard than to their own.
    Why is it that grown adults can't seem to tell their parents that they don't subscribe to their religion?


  • #281
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Erren Music


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The only reason I can think of as to why atheists would really oppose people learning about Christianity at home, is that they don't like Christianity and would prefer that it ended.

    We do not like it because it is fiction.
    grainne01 wrote: »
    In school, our religion classes are just about the Catholic religion. My personal religious beliefs are, well, non existent to be honest. I don't believe in my religion at all, much to my parent's disaproval.

    It is so refreshingly wonderful to hear this.

    I hope you question the priests about any parts that make no sense, remember you can ask them anything you want
    grainne01 wrote: »
    why should I believe the one Catholic religion just because my parents tell me to? When I clearly know NOTHING about any other religion? Its stupid.

    Jackass this is what you want to do to your future children.
    JimiTime wrote: »
    It also seems to lend weight to Jackass' earlier point about a parent teaching their child their religion does not inhibit them from making a choice when they get older.

    I think you are a bit too optimistic there. It lends no weight to jackass. It just portrays clearly what a waste of time religion is.
    Jakkass wrote: »

    All you're doing is dogmatising without giving any reason for what you are saying. Whereas many of the others, namely Wicknight, iUseVi, Dades, robindch, and Ickle Magoo amongst any others I've left out have actually contributed some interesting points.

    Ah yes, the exact same points that requires you to post over 30 posts in a thread without actually saying anything of value ... as usual.


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  • #282
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    iUseVi wrote: »
    Glad to help. From what I've read of your recent posts, you seem to take a more moderate view of hell than the standard line, so there's hope for you yet. :P I don't know what your childhood was like, or if you care to share, but I'm sure you can imagine that for many young children the standard view of hell is quite terrifying. It's these sort of aspects that would tempt me to use words like "abuse".

    Hell was never a concept taught to me by my parents tbh. As far as school goes, I can't recall being taught about it. I can say for certain though, there was little emphasis put on the concept. Thats my particular experience. Also, as far as my 'moderate view of hell' goes, I'd like to be clear that this does not originate from an 'a-la-carte' position but rather a studious one. I know you didn't accuse me of that, but I thought it worth mentioning.


  • #283
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    dvpower wrote: »
    Actually, I think its the other way around. There are an awful lot of people who are willing to place the beliefs of their nearest and dearest in higher regard than to their own.
    Why is it that grown adults can't seem to tell their parents that they don't subscribe to their religion?

    I can't speak from experience having been fortunate enough never to have to deal with religious parents/family but I've been witness to a few very religious parents who wept, cried, threatened and generally made life pretty unpleasant when anyone tried to broach the subject of not attending mass or getting kids christened or not having a church wedding. It's easy when you have easy going parents who don't really bother about what their kids do as long as they are happy & wholesome but if the option is going along with things or making someone you love unhappy or falling out with family or generally being leaned on by people you care about then it's easy to cave in to peer (familial?) pressure.

    In the not so distant past families merrily sent daughters away to laundries or over to the UK rather than stand by them and stuff what the priest/neighbours think. It's terrifying how much power some people give religion, even over their own flesh and blood over the most ridiculous and irrational things. :(


  • #284
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    dvpower wrote: »
    Actually, I think its the other way around. There are an awful lot of people who are willing to place the beliefs of their nearest and dearest in higher regard than to their own.
    Why is it that grown adults can't seem to tell their parents that they don't subscribe to their religion?

    Have to say, the more I see that kind of thing, the more I am thankful for my own upbringing. I don't recall any questions being taboo, or swept under the carpet or any feeling of pressure about having to follow their intellectual or spiritual path. I think the whole issue is about wise parenting rather than any specifics of what is being taught and tbh, I think that has come out in this thread.


  • #285
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Erren Music


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »

    In the not so distant past families merrily sent daughters away to laundries or over to the UK rather than stand by them and stuff what the priest/neighbours think. It's terrifying how much power some people give religion, even over their own flesh and blood over the most ridiculous and irrational things. :(

    Those people have to live with the fact that they allowed the church to sell their grandchildren to high bidders. If you were that child how would you feel about scum like that when you found out the truth.
    dvpower wrote: »
    Actually, I think its the other way around. There are an awful lot of people who are willing to place the beliefs of their nearest and dearest in higher regard than to their own.
    Why is it that grown adults can't seem to tell their parents that they don't subscribe to their religion?

    I have a 38 year old divorced mate, his GF has a kid and is unmarried and his parents tried pressuring him to dump her because she has a kid out of wedlock.

    It is crazy to think that it's 2010 and people like this still exist.


  • #286
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Erren Music wrote: »


    I think you are a bit too optimistic there. It lends no weight to jackass. It just portrays clearly what a waste of time religion is.


    Maybe optimism reduces our negativity.

    Anyway, you don't seem to appreciate any input from non-atheists, so I'll leave ye to it.


  • #287
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Erren Music


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Maybe optimism reduces our negativity.

    ....which does not affect whether something is true or not.
    JimiTime wrote: »
    Anyway, you don't seem to appreciate any input from non-atheists, so I'll leave ye to it.

    Only because you are all indoctrinated and delusional, I understand it is not your fault, but unfortunately you have a cognative issue. How can I take anything you lot say with any seriousness when you believe what you do. BTW this is the A+A forum, yours is over the fence.


  • #288
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Erren Music wrote: »
    ....which does not affect whether something is true or not.



    Only because you are all indoctrinated and delusional, I understand it is not your fault, but unfortunately you have a cognative issue. How can I take anything you lot say with any seriousness when you believe what you do. BTW this is the A+A forum, yours is over the fence.

    :D good man.


  • #289
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I can't speak from experience having been fortunate enough never to have to deal with religious parents/family but I've been witness to a few very religious parents who wept, cried, threatened and generally made life pretty unpleasant when anyone tried to broach the subject of not attending mass or getting kids christened or not having a church wedding. It's easy when you have easy going parents who don't really bother about what their kids do as long as they are happy & wholesome but if the option is going along with things or making someone you love unhappy or falling out with family or generally being leaned on by people you care about then it's easy to cave in to peer (familial?) pressure.
    (

    I can understand going with the flow to a point. There's no point in causing distress to a parent if it can easily be avoided and if you're a child or young adult living at home, then you're not fully free to go your own way.

    But, I've come across people in their thirties who have given up on religion but, on visits to their parents pretend that they are church going believers.
    I've even come across a regular atheist poster on this forum, who obviously spends a lot of time thinking about the issue we discuss here in some depth, and he says that when he goes home, its off to mass every Sunday.

    I just don't get it. Parents are just other people who are a bit older than the rest of us, aren't they?


  • #290
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    dvpower wrote: »
    I can understand going with the flow to a point. There's no point in causing distress to a parent if it can easily be avoided and if you're a child or young adult living at home, then you're not fully free to go your own way.

    But, I've come across people in their thirties who have given up on religion but, on visits to their parents pretend that they are church going believers.
    I've even come across a regular atheist poster on this forum, who obviously spends a lot of time thinking about the issue we discuss here in some depth, and he says that when he goes home, its off to mass every Sunday.

    I just don't get it. Parents are just other people who are a bit older than the rest of us, aren't they?

    Well, I think so, yes...but then my parents encouraged discussions on theology/atheism/spirituality/etc, I've never felt the need to hide who I am from them - they even stated that having a faith was deeply personal and they would no more tell me what religion to follow than they would tell me what political party to vote for - but other people have had very different upbringings.

    Surely the only reason someone wouldn't want to mention they are not religious would be so as not to upset a parent or loved one and the fact it would upset the parent and cause stress or relationship issues and - more importantly - that it has obviously been stressed that that would be the case, is the crux of the issue being discussed.


  • #291
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    dvpower wrote: »
    I can understand going with the flow to a point. There's no point in causing distress to a parent if it can easily be avoided and if you're a child or young adult living at home, then you're not fully free to go your own way.

    But, I've come across people in their thirties who have given up on religion but, on visits to their parents pretend that they are church going believers.
    I've even come across a regular atheist poster on this forum, who obviously spends a lot of time thinking about the issue we discuss here in some depth, and he says that when he goes home, its off to mass every Sunday.

    I just don't get it. Parents are just other people who are a bit older than the rest of us, aren't they?

    For someone in thier 30's, thier parents might be quite old, i.e not long for this world. Who would it possibly benefit for them to suddenly spring it on thier parents that they believe God doesn't exist, heaven is a pipe dream, and they believe everything thier mam and dad hold dear is bullsh1t? Whatever about apposing religion or personally thinking it's crap. Why possibly introduce one more thing that may instigate another thing you disagree with your parents about? What will it accomplish that will improve anyones life in anyway. No good can come of this in some cases. Everyones situation is different and I think you possibly view it as a lot simpler than it really is....


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  • #292
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    strobe wrote: »
    For someone in thier 30's, thier parents might be quite old, i.e not long for this world. Who would it possibly benefit for them to suddenly spring it on thier parents that they believe God doesn't exist, heaven is a pipe dream, and they believe everything thier mam and dad hold dear is bullsh1t? Whatever about apposing religion or personally thinking it's crap. Why possibly introduce one more thing that may instigate another thing you disagree with your parents about? What will it accomplish that will improve anyones life in anyway. No good can come of this in some cases. Everyones situation is different and I think you possibly view it as a lot simpler than it really is....


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Well, I think so, yes...but then my parents encouraged discussions on theology/atheism/spirituality/etc, I've never felt the need to hide who I am from them - they even stated that having a faith was deeply personal and they would no more tell me what religion to follow than they would tell me what political party to vote for - but other people have had very different upbringings.

    Surely the only reason someone wouldn't want to mention they are not religious would be so as not to upset a parent or loved one and the fact it would upset the parent and cause stress or relationship issues and - more importantly - that it has obviously been stressed that that would be the case, is the crux of the issue being discussed.

    I'm not in favour of unduly upsetting parents. But they are grown adults (like you). They can handle the truth.
    Thinking that they somehow would be desperately hurt by the revelation that their child wasn't a Christian, I think, is naive. If your children decided that they did believe or that they were Scientologist or Muslim or Pagan or whatever, wouldn't you like to know? Wouldn't you be interested in what they believe and why they believe? So why would you think you're parents are any different? Why try and wrap them on cotton wool?


  • #293
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'm not in favour of unduly upsetting parents. But they are grown adults (like you). They can handle the truth.
    Thinking that they somehow would be desperately hurt by the revelation that their child wasn't a Christian, I think, is naive. If your children decided that they did believe or that they were Scientologist or Muslim or Pagan or whatever, wouldn't you like to know? Wouldn't you be interested in what they believe and why they believe? So why would you think you're parents are any different? Why try and wrap them on cotton wool?

    It's not about wrapping them in cotton wool. I don't feel the need to tell my parents that I take XTC quite often, I don't feel the need to tell them that I have sex with random girls I meet when I'm out and I don't feel the need to tell one of them that I think Christianity is bullsh1t.

    I've had my problems with them throughout my life, I don't want to add to them. One of my parents feels very strongly that when he dies he will go to heaven and when I die I will meet up with him there. It gives him comfort. I'll say it again, no good would come from me chalenging him about that.

    So why would I do it? How would that make either of our lives better. How would that make our relationship better? Why?


  • #294
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    strobe wrote: »
    It's not about wrapping them in cotton wool. I don't feel the need to tell my parents that I take XTC quite often, I don't feel the need to tell them that I have sex with random girls I meet when I'm out and I don't feel the need to tell one of them that I think Christianity is bullsh1t.

    I've had my problems with them throughout my life, I don't want to add to them. One of my parents feels very strongly that when he dies he will go to heaven and when I die I will meet up with him there. It gives him comfort. I'll say it again, no good would come from me chalenging him about that.

    So why would I do it? How would that make either of our lives better. How would that make our relationship better? Why?

    I guess if its just a little white lie then its probably better to say nothing. I wonder how its going to play out, say, when you have kids of your own. To sustain the lie aren't you going to have to bring them along to get baptised and raise them as Christians?


  • #295
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'm not in favour of unduly upsetting parents. But they are grown adults (like you). They can handle the truth.
    Thinking that they somehow would be desperately hurt by the revelation that their child wasn't a Christian, I think, is naive. If your children decided that they did believe or that they were Scientologist or Muslim or Pagan or whatever, wouldn't you like to know? Wouldn't you be interested in what they believe and why they believe? So why would you think you're parents are any different? Why try and wrap them on cotton wool?

    I've stated several times now that I don't have this issue, so I'm not sure why you insist on the personalising of the question in response to my post? I think it's incredibly naive to dismiss the scores of parents and family member who WOULD be desperately hurt and/or angry with a child who didn't want to follow their religion. As has already been pointed out, there has been scores of posts about parents who clearly ARE hurt and/or angry - of families falling out and refusing to speak to members who didn't want a christening or church wedding, etc, etc. It's not just a case of people being too timid to broach the issue, I've witnessed damaged familial relationships caused by a rejection of parental faith.

    I don't think it has anything to do with cotton wool either, perhaps shouting atheism from the rooftops is not a huge priority, that it doesn't really bother them to play along for an easy life or the water has been tested and it would cause issues that they are happy to live without. If faith is deeply personal then surely lack of faith is too?


  • #296
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I've stated several times now that I don't have this issue, so I'm not sure why you insist on the personalising of the question in response to my post?
    I'm not sure I know what you're referring to.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I think it's incredibly naive to dismiss the scores of parents and family member who WOULD be desperately hurt and/or angry with a child who didn't want to follow their religion.
    It would be. I didn't.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    As has already been pointed out, there has been scores of posts about parents who clearly ARE hurt and/or angry - of families falling out and refusing to speak to members who didn't want a christening or church wedding, etc, etc. It's not just a case of people being too timid to broach the issue, I've witnessed damaged familial relationships caused by a rejection of parental faith.
    I wouldn't be in favour of doing anything that would cause undue stress to a parent. If someone has a familial relationship that is so brittle that it would be damaged by simply sharing ones views, then maybe its better not to share those views.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I don't think it has anything to do with cotton wool either, perhaps shouting atheism from the rooftops is not a huge priority, that it doesn't really bother them to play along for an easy life or the water has been tested and it would cause issues that they are happy to live without.
    Whose advocating shouting atheism from the rooftops? I'm advocating being open. I think that it is the best route unless there are good reasons to hide ones views. But I wonder if hiding ones atheism is sustainable in the long run; what to do when someone has their own kids and decisions have to be made about baptism and schooling. The cat is out of the bag then, no?
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    If faith is deeply personal then surely lack of faith is too?
    If the strong faith of ones parents is the reason that someone is hiding their own lack of faith, then it can't be described as being deeply personal.


  • #297
    sublunar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34 ✭sublunar


    i can definitely see why people would hide it from their parents if they know it would cause trouble, but it is sad. and it does lead to people saying things like "i'm an atheist, but i haven't really come out yet" (in all seriousness. this is a direct quote).

    this is part of the reason i think it's important for atheists to form some sort of community - it's easy for me to just get on with my life and not think about it, but for some people, it's a lot harder and can be lonely if they have to hide it from those closest to them.


  • #298
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'm not sure I know what you're referring to.


    :) This kind of thing:
    dvpower wrote:
    So why would you think you're parents are any different? Why try and wrap them on cotton wool?
    dvpower wrote: »
    It would be. I didn't.

    Well, you seemed to be intent of seeing people not declaring themselves as atheists as being a form of weakness, either theirs or their parents, rather than either a big issue or a non-issue - which it can also be.
    dvpower wrote: »
    I wouldn't be in favour of doing anything that would cause undue stress to a parent. If someone has a familial relationship that is so brittle that it would be damaged by simply sharing ones views, then maybe its better not to share those views.

    I have a friend who's father kicked the shít out of him when he said he was an atheist and has barely uttered a dozen words to him since (this was over a decade ago). I have witnessed the gnashing of teeth and wailing of a mother who's daughter didn't want a church wedding and was threatening to never speak to the girl again unless she wed in the parish church. Although they are just personal anecdotes, I am certain they are not isolated incidents. Religion does funny things to people and some people are barely good parents to begin with, combine the two and it's easier just to say nothing than cause WWII.
    dvpower wrote: »
    Whose advocating shouting atheism from the rooftops? I'm advocating being open. I think that it is the best route unless there are good reasons to hide ones views. But I wonder if hiding ones atheism is sustainable in the long run; what to do when someone has their own kids and decisions have to be made about baptism and schooling. The cat is out of the bag then, no?

    I agree, completely. I am also coming from the position of knowing people who have gone through a great deal of trouble, hurt and aggression for the sake of being open, I can understand why others would choose not to go that route. It wouldn't be for me & nor would I want it for my kids but I can see why other people in other situations would.
    dvpower wrote: »
    If the strong faith of ones parents is the reason that someone is hiding their own lack of faith, then it can't be described as being deeply personal.

    Why not? I have friends with elderly parents who have no wish to upset them. They are not rabid atheists, they feel no sense of personal betrayal by going through the motions for the sake of making people they love happy...and that's their prerogative. :cool:


  • #299
    Erren Music
    Closed Accounts Posts: 384 ✭✭Erren Music


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I think it's incredibly naive to dismiss the scores of parents and family member who WOULD be desperately hurt and/or angry with a child who didn't want to follow their religion. As has already been pointed out, there has been scores of posts about parents who clearly ARE hurt and/or angry - of families falling out and refusing to speak to members who didn't want a christening or church wedding, etc, etc. It's not just a case of people being too timid to broach the issue, I've witnessed damaged familial relationships caused by a rejection of parental faith.

    And therein lies the problem with religion. Those people are completely brainwashed. They get emotional when their indoctrinated brain is challenged, they have no logical responses based on reason or science.

    Religion has them unable to rationally seperate fact from fiction.

    It was selfish of your parents to force it on you, and it is selfish of them to still expect you to believe the BS when you have grown up and actually seen the world for what it is.

    Anyone here who hasn't told their parents do so, and stop supporting this church by going to functions in it.
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I don't think it has anything to do with cotton wool either, perhaps shouting atheism from the rooftops is not a huge priority, that it doesn't really bother them to play along for an easy life or the water has been tested and it would cause issues that they are happy to live without. If faith is deeply personal then surely lack of faith is too?


    It is cotton wool. The parents are deluding themselves and the children are lying to the parents. How is that good for anyone?


  • #300
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Erren Music wrote: »
    And therein lies the problem with religion. Those people are completely brainwashed. They get emotional when their indoctrinated brain is challenged, they have no logical responses based on reason or science.

    Religion has them unable to rationally seperate fact from fiction.

    Yes, yes, we all know your equally emotional and illogical responses to what other people choose to do.
    Erren Music wrote: »
    It was selfish of your parents to force it on you, and it is selfish of them to still expect you to believe the BS when you have grown up and actually seen the world for what it is.

    I wasn't brought up with religion, my parents forced nothing on me and they are not selfishly expecting me to believe anything, what are you wittering on about now? :confused:
    Erren Music wrote: »
    Anyone here who hasn't told their parents do so, and stop supporting this church by going to functions in it.

    That's their choice, though. No-one HAS to declare their faith or lack of, no-one MUST go to church when religious or refuse to cross the thresh-hold if not. It's not absolutely black and white for everyone, I'd imagine the majority are in rather a grey area of having religious family or even dating or marrying religious people - faith isn't something everyone can just wipe out of their life - and nor does everyone want to, for that matter.
    Erren Music wrote: »
    It is cotton wool. The parents are deluding themselves and the children are lying to the parents. How is that good for anyone?

    That's just your rather narrow view on things...how other people choose to live their lives or interact with their family is up to them, you may not agree with it but you have no right to demand they change purely to satiate your own personal opinions on the matter.


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  • #301
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,518 ✭✭✭axer


    I know plenty of people that go to mass to keep their parents happy. I think everyone does.

    Since I was about 16 ish I had strong logical arguments as to why the odds of a god existing as depicted by any organised religion are extremely low which I shared with my parents. Plenty of times we (me and some of my siblings) were called pagans for not going to mass (which is ironic since paganism is a religion but I think the parents didn't know that).

    I told my parents when I was about 18 ish that I didn't believe in a god. They weren't that happy but accepted it all the same. I then officially left the church about a year or two ago after reading here that it was possible to do.

    Its weird because the majority of Irish people (including me) were brainwashed as children being forced to learn off questions and answers as fact i.e. Who is god? God is the creator of .... etc etc.

    I think atheists generally feel so strongly about the way things are because once you beat the brainwashing you see how bad it was.


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