Is it selfish of a parent to force their religion onto their child

Zombrex · 09-04-2010 01:14PM

Jakkass wrote: »

You're actually comparing belief in God to racism? Seriously?

It is nothing to do with what you are teaching them.

They will believe it unquestioningly. As I already asked you why do you think Christianity would be any different.

Zombrex · 09-04-2010 01:16PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Christianity is a part of who they are, and I don't see why they should have to deny it at home of all places.

Well because you claim (and this is getting more and more like a hollow claim) to care that your children accept Christianity based on their own rational decision to.

It is interesting thought that you keep coming back to what you want, not what your children want.

Only a few pages ago you were asking what is selfish about all this.

philologos · 09-04-2010 01:17PM

I think there was more to the comparison than just this Wicknight. Do you really think it is appropriate or accurate to compare a belief in God to racism?

As for your last post, the point remains, why should the Christian have to secularise their life in the home, or have to less genuinely express their faith? People are influenced by their parents and how they act and live the whole time even in matters other than religion.

Nevyn · 09-04-2010 01:20PM

I think that it's a set of beliefs which can be corrupted to set people apart and to look down on those who are not the same. People do indoctrinate their kids to treat people differently due to race and creed ect.
The idea that their morals are the right ones or better then that of others is always a problem.

Zombrex · 09-04-2010 01:21PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I think there was more to the comparison than just this Wicknight. Do you really think it is appropriate or accurate to compare a belief in God to racism?

I think it is unnecessary, or should be, to pick such an extreme example of how children accept the doctrine of their parents without any rational determination on their own.

But given that you have simply chosen to ignore less extreme examples, perhaps an extreme example is what you need to fact the reality of the situation here.

Unless you want to explain how this isn't an example of children accepting what they are told by their parents unquestioningly?

When you say "compare a belief in God to racism" you seem to be admitting that Christians do do this with their children, but it is ok because Christianity is not as bad a racism?

philologos · 09-04-2010 01:25PM

Wicknight wrote: »

I think it is unnecessary, or should be, to pick such an extreme example of how children accept the doctrine of their parents without any rational determination on their own.

But given that you have simply chosen to ignore less extreme examples, perhaps an extreme example is what you need to fact the reality of the situation here.

Unless you want to explain how this isn't an example of children accepting what they are told by their parents unquestioningly?

I'm amazed, slightly amused to a certain extent, that someone has compared average Christian conviction to racism on this forum. That's something that is worthy of being addressed. It merely shows, how many people on this forum are unwilling to look into the human side of Christian faith and conviction.

I haven't "ignored" anything Wicknight. I've merely disagreed with your view as it isn't anywhere close to what I've seen in reality.

The extreme example, isn't an example at all. It's just something that shows that the poster has underlying issues in how they regard Christianity.

Wicknight wrote: »

When you say "compare a belief in God to racism" you seem to be admitting that Christians do do this with their children, but it is ok because Christianity is not as bad a racism?

I'm not "admitting" anything. I believe what you are doing is plucking at straws.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I have looked up several definition of indoctrination and they all give religion more than a passing mention so to try to infer they are in no way related and the term is not relevant to religion is less than honest. I don't know many (any?) theists than raise children to be critical of their beliefs and that is the difference between education and indoctrination.

I know no situation where parents don't encourage questioning of their children in relation to their faith. It seems we have two parallel realities going on here, or just radically different experiences of how Christians live.

I think it's perfectly honest, to say that "indoctrination" wouldn't be applicable in any of these cases.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think I'm the one attempting to dress up anything - I'm all for calling a spade a spade.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this as we usually do.

axer · 09-04-2010 01:26PM

Jakkass wrote: »

As for your last post, the point remains, why should the Christian have to secularise their life in the home, or have to less genuinely express their faith? People are influenced by their parents and how they act and live the whole time even in matters other than religion.

I think the example above and Wicknight's post sums up the problem as such and why indoctrinating children is a selfish act.

Are the racist parents above being selfish by teaching their children to be racist? or are they doing it for the children's "good"? Surely the parents believe that racism is right.

Racism and Christianity are not being compared here. It is indoctrinate no matter what the belief is is what is being argued i.e. that you can teach any sort of belief to a child and they will go with it as if it is the way to be. Indoctrinating is never for the children's benefit since if what is being thought is true then the child will be able to come to that conclusion as an adult anyway but at least they will be unbiased in their learning.

philologos · 09-04-2010 01:28PM

axer wrote: »

I think the example above and Wicknight's post sums up the problem as such and why indoctrinating children is a selfish act.

Are the racist parents above being selfish by teaching their children to be racist? or are they doing it for the children's good?

Christianity and racism aren't comparable in any way.

I think it's absurd to expect that Christians would throw their faith out at home, and that this is the "best option" for the child, to have their parents deny who they are? It's particularly absurd considering that these people believe that faith is true hope, the source of true living, and an enormous benefit to any human being. It is the best thing one can possibly share to people like us.

magicbastarder · 09-04-2010 01:31PM

Wicknight wrote: »

It is interesting thought that you keep coming back to what you want, not what your children want.

hang on - are we talking about children or adults here? children generally do not want to have to wash themselves, etc.; basing an argument on what children want is not a basis on which to make a point, because children need guidance, often unwanted.

Rev Hellfire · 09-04-2010 01:32PM

axer wrote: »

Are the racist parents above being selfish by teaching their children to be racist? or are they doing it for the children's good?

Clearly they are, no parent I know teaches their child things to spite them.

By the logic displayed here we should perhaps not teach our children anything about morality either and leave it to them to discover it for themselves, I mean to do so would be selfish. Its parents indoctrinating their children with their morality. The list is endless.

The whole thing is such a nonsense.

iUseVi · 09-04-2010 01:32PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Christianity and racism aren't comparable in any way.

Jakkass no one is claiming this, honestly. You seem eager to claim someone is, but they just are not.

It's the unquestioning child accepting a particular creed which is the comparison.

axer · 09-04-2010 01:35PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Christianity and racism aren't comparable in any way.

I even made it clear that Christianity and racism are not being compared here - indoctrinating is.

Jakkass wrote: »

I think it's absurd to expect that Christians would throw their faith out at home, and that this is the "best option" for the child, to have their parents deny who they are? It's particularly absurd considering that these people believe that faith is true hope, the source of true living, and an enormous benefit to any human being. It is the best thing one can possibly share to people like us.

Why can't the child come to that conclusion as an adult if it is correct instead of indoctrinating them since their birth?

philologos · 09-04-2010 01:35PM

iUseVi: I think that such examples, only serve to obfuscate the discussion rather than contribute anything useful to it.

From experience, unquestioning faith tends to be very much the minority. Most people who believe at least from what I've seen do wrestle with questions, most people do think rather seriously about it.

axer: I question the entire notion of "indoctrination" when it comes to Christianity. I have agreed that the initiation rites are perhaps the closest we can get to it.

axer · 09-04-2010 01:36PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

hang on - are we talking about children or adults here? children generally do not want to have to wash themselves, etc.; basing an argument on what children want is not a basis on which to make a point, because children need guidance, often unwanted.

That is completely different as that is based on fact i.e. that washing yourself and hygene increases their lifespan.

Zombrex · 09-04-2010 01:37PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm amazed, slightly amused to a certain extent, that someone has compared average Christian conviction to racism on this forum.

Ok. I'm unfortunately not amazed that you are using that to avoid the actual issue here.

Jakkass wrote: »

That's something that is worthy of being addressed. It merely shows, how many people on this forum are unwilling to look into the human side of Christian faith and conviction.

I think everyone here is looking at the human side apart from you. You are ignore simply human biology, the bond between parent and child, simply because it does not fit what you want to be the case.

You pretend that children will rationally evaluate what they are told by their parents, and when presented with a blatant example of how that isn't the case (the racist children who are racist not because they have figured out some deep logical reason why black people suck but simply because their parents told them this is the case) you choose to ignore this by faking offense.

Jakkass wrote: »

I haven't "ignored" anything Wicknight. I've merely disagreed with your view as it isn't anywhere close to what I've seen in reality.

What you personally have seen in reality is largely irrelevant given that you don't seem to have looked very hard. Are you a child psychologist? Have you studied learning and behavioral patterns in children? I imagine not, which leads me to wonder why you take your experience as meaning anything at all, if it isn't simply an excuse to ignore the reality and retreat to the position you wish to be true.

Imagine how much weight you would put in a atheist poster coming to the Christian forum saying they have never met a Christian who wasn't nuts. They would probably be told to simply get out and about more.

Jakkass wrote: »

The extreme example, isn't an example at all.

Of course it is an example! What you think these kids decided that black people were inferior through rational discussion and evidence?

They were told it by their parents and children believe their parents.

Jakkass wrote: »

I know no situation where parents don't encourage questioning of their children in relation to their faith.

Once again you change your position. :rolleyes:

So you agree that children believe what they are told by their parents unquestioningly, and therefore it is necessary for their parents to frame what they tell them in a particular way in order to get them to question what they are told, ie not tell them as facts but tell them that it is just the parents opinion and that the children should not accept it as true and should figure it out for themselves, that there are lots of different religions and that it is up to the child to work out what is right for them, and more importantly the parent shouldn't tell their children about any of this until they are actually at an age where they can rationally question what they are being told.

Or do you mean they should teach them Christianity for most of their lives and then when they are 17 go "Oh by the way, you should question this stuff? Whats that, you still want to be a Chrisitan? What are the odds!"

The only issue here is whether you genuinely want your children to arrive at Christian faith on their own having rationally decided they want to be Christian when they are at a place in their lives where they can actually decide that, or do you just want them to be Christians.

pinksoir · 09-04-2010 01:38PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Christianity and racism aren't comparable in any way.

I think it's absurd to expect that Christians would throw their faith out at home, and that this is the "best option" for the child, to have their parents deny who they are? It's particularly absurd considering that these people believe that faith is true hope, the source of true living, and an enormous benefit to any human being. It is the best thing one can possibly share to people like us.

Per usual Jakkass, you are willfully misinterpreting the point of the post in order to sidestep the issue. I can't believe how often you are intentionally obtuse. The point is that children are sponges, not that Christianity and racism are equatable.

I could make comparisons between the two, in the same way I could make comparisons between any two world views, particularly ones that are held contrary to evidence, but that is absolutely not the point I was trying to make.

Zombrex · 09-04-2010 01:40PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

hang on - are we talking about children or adults here? children generally do not want to have to wash themselves, etc.; basing an argument on what children want is not a basis on which to make a point, because children need guidance, often unwanted.

That wasn't really my point. I want my children to get washed. I want them to not play on the road. I want them to share their toys. I've no problem saying that.

If Jakkass simply says I want my children to be Christian, that is fair enough. It is quite easy to make that happen, or at least greatly increase the odds that they will be. You simply start teaching them about it as if it was fact from an early age. As pinksior says children are sponges, and in fact there are very good evolutionary reasons why they are sponges.

The issue is this little dance we are all having where he claims he wants his children to rationally decide for themselves that they want to to be Christians, yet he wants to teach his children Christianity from a young age, where they will simply accept what they are told.

There is a contradiction here.

philologos · 09-04-2010 01:41PM

I totally disagree with you then pinksoir. Christian belief and racism are entirely two different kettles of fish.

I also don't regard Christianity as "contrary to evidence".

Wicknight wrote:

The issue is this little dance we are all having where he claims he wants his children to rationally decide for themselves that they want to to be Christians, yet he wants to teach his children Christianity from a young age, where they will simply accept what they are told.

Yes, I want them (hypothetical children) to understand Christ for themselves and think about it for themselves like I did. I've never said that they will "simply accept" what they are told, I personally would like them to think about it, and consider it, and hopefully accept it for themselves. Whether they do or not is up to them.

I don't see how that is an issue, apart from someone who has a pre-conceived notion that people never question their faith. That to me is demonstrably false.

magicbastarder · 09-04-2010 01:42PM

this thread seems to be going round in circles. seems to be one of those issues where there's no common ground, so people just end up dancing around each other. i can see both sides of the argument, and it seems to be just one of those c'est la vie things.

axer · 09-04-2010 01:43PM

Jakkass wrote: »

axer: I question the entire notion of "indoctrination" when it comes to Christianity. I have agreed that the initiation rites are perhaps the closest we can get to it.

Do you disagree with this definition?

Indoctrinate: to fill with a certain teaching or set of opinions, beliefs etc

It seems correct to me and it seems to be what religious parents do generally to children.

Zombrex · 09-04-2010 01:43PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I totally disagree with you then pinksoir. Christian belief and racism are entirely two different kettles of fish.

I also don't regard Christianity as "contrary to evidence".

I doubt racists regard racism as contrary to the evidence either, but then as pinksoir said that wasn't the point. :rolleyes:

iUseVi · 09-04-2010 01:45PM

Jakkass wrote: »

iUseVi: I think that such examples, only serve to obfuscate the discussion rather than contribute anything useful to it.

Well since its been made clear we aren't comparing Christianity to racism it does help as an example of children accepting whatever they are taught at a young age.

Jakkass wrote: »

From experience, unquestioning faith tends to be very much the minority. Most people who believe at least from what I've seen do wrestle with questions, most people do think rather seriously about it.

Its like the different world views are "channels" that water can flow down. If you make the Christianity "channel" deep enough the child is likely to never go down the buddist or Islam or atheist channels. Now if you want your child to be Christian, the best way to do this is start 'em early, no doubt about that.
But you are kidding yourself if you think they have a fair choice in the matter. Even if you make the Christian "channel" only a bit deeper, thats still taking away some of their choice.

Will you admit that a child taught in Christian ways from a young age will be more likely to be Christian than one who isn't? Well in fact you don't even need to admit it, that's just the facts. This is why the word "indoctrination" is bandied around, the child doesn't have a real choice about what they are growing up to be. Christians who turn away from their childhood faith are very much in the minority.

Sam Vimes · 09-04-2010 01:46PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Ok. I'm unfortunately not amazed that you are using that to avoid the actual issue here.

Neither am I since it's not the first time he's said it despite it already being pointed out to him that he's missing the point

Zombrex · 09-04-2010 01:48PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes, I want them (hypothetical children) to understand Christ for themselves and think about it for themselves like I did. I've never said that they will "simply accept" what they are told, I personally would like them to think about it, and consider it, and hopefully accept it for themselves. Whether they do or not is up to them.

It is not up to them because, just like these racist children, their brains don't work like that.

Again, children are like sponges. They absorb and accept what they are told from their parents.

If you genuinely cared about your children coming to a rational acceptance of Christianity you would recongize this.

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't see how that is an issue, apart from someone who has a pre-conceived notion that people never question their faith.

"People"?

Children don't question things Jakkass. Children. It is nothing to do with faith, they don't question anything. There was a boy who lived down the road from me who thought pee was made of ice cream because his parents told him that. Why would he not believe that, he was 7?

If you want to teach your 17 year old about Jesus go right ahead I've no issue with that, but that isn't what we are talking about.

philologos · 09-04-2010 01:48PM

iUseVi wrote: »

Will you admit that a child taught in Christian ways from a young age will be more likely to be Christian than one who isn't? Well in fact you don't even need to admit it, that's just the facts. This is why the word "indoctrination" is bandied around, the child doesn't have a real choice about what they are growing up to be. Christians who turn away from their childhood faith are very much in the minority.

The word "indoctrination" is indeed bandied around, inaccurately. Kind of like "child abuse" earlier in this thread.

Of course anyone has a real choice. We live in a society that regards freedom of speech, and freedom of conscience.

Wicknight wrote:

Children don't question things Jakkass. Children. If you want to teach your 17 year old about Jesus go right ahead I've no issue with that, but that isn't what we are talking about.

I think it's possible to encourage a questioning faith in children, as well as teenagers or adults. The only reason you seem to have a problem with it is because you don't want people becoming Christians.

Wicknight wrote:

If you genuinely cared about your children coming to a rational acceptance of Christianity you would recongize this.

"If you want to be in my argument, you must think what I think". This kind of stuff isn't helpful.

axer · 09-04-2010 01:50PM

Jakkass wrote: »

The word "indoctrination" is indeed bandied around, inaccurately. Kind of like "child abuse" earlier in this thread.

Of course anyone has a real choice. We live in a society that regards freedom of speech, and freedom of conscience.

I think it's possible to encourage a questioning faith in children, as well as teenagers or adults. The only reason you seem to have a problem with it is because you don't want people becoming Christians.

Ok, Jakkass, what is your definition of "indoctrination"?

iUseVi · 09-04-2010 01:50PM

Jakkass wrote: »

The word "indoctrination" is indeed bandied around, inaccurately. Kind of like "child abuse" earlier in this thread.

Of course anyone has a real choice. We live in a society that regards freedom of speech, and freedom of conscience.

I think it's possible to encourage a questioning faith in children, as well as teenagers or adults.

No, Jackass, please! Children believe whatever they are told, don't you get that yet?

EDIT: If you tell your child that theres a God that watches over them etc., do you think they are gonna to start philosophising and bring in Pascal's Wager etc? Be realistic

Zombrex · 09-04-2010 01:55PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I think it's possible to encourage a questioning faith in children, as well as teenagers or adults.

How exactly? How do you get your children not to be children exactly? Please explain that one to me.

The dangers of Christianity isn't actually the point of this thread, but I can't help think in the back of my mind that willfully ignoring reality because it doesn't fit with your religious outlook is just another example of the dangers of Christianity. You claim to be someone who embraces science and rationality but look how quickly you abandon that when you come up with the crushing reality that fact does not meet how you want the world to be.

Children accept unquestioningly what they are told by their parents. That is not the atheists world outlook, or the naturalists conspiracy. It is just the way children are. You can explain why through evolution but people have recognized this is the case for centuries. They are like this whether you are teaching them about Christianity or about racism or about Irish history or about playing safe and sharing. It is just reality, just the way things are.

Would you be fighting tooth and nail to ignore basic biological facts if we were discussing whether or not you should teach your children about the Irish Famine or Quantum mechanics?

philologos · 09-04-2010 01:55PM

iUseVi wrote: »

No, Jackass, please! Children believe whatever they are told, don't you get that yet?

EDIT: If you tell your child that theres a God that watches over them etc., do you think they are gonna to start philosophising and bring in Pascal's Wager etc? Be realistic

I think the issue here is, I'm thinking in a long term picture, and you are thinking in a very short time frame.

I think the notion that people don't question their beliefs from childhood to adulthood is just incorrect.

I think I'm being quite realistic in my assessment of the matter. I think it's ludicrous to suggest that most faith is taught without room for question.

Wicknight: I'm not fighting "tooth and nail". I just disagree with you strongly considering what I've learned from other people about their experience in coming to Christianity and from my own experience.

This argument is getting somewhat tedious, as nobody is really going to see things any differently. As long as people still have the legal right to teach children about their values, I don't mind what you think.

Zombrex · 09-04-2010 02:00PM

From the horses mouth so to speak

http://www.dltk-kids.com/articles/lb1.htm

Why Teach Young Children the Bible?

Once some NASA scientists were asked, "What is the moon made of? Just say the very first thing that comes to your mind." They all smiled and said, "Green cheese!" These scientists knew what the moon is really made of, but their first response was what they were taught as children!
Young children are like sponges. Their whole job in life is to take information in. It is important as parents and teachers, that we understand the precious opportunity we have to teach our young children to know and to love God. There are at least two examples in the Bible that demonstrate this.
Consider the story of baby Moses in Exodus 2:1-10. His mother had him for a little while at a very young age and then had to give him to Pharaoh's daughter. She taught him while she had the opportunity. Let's use our imagination for a moment. She may have said something like, "My precious little Moses, soon you will no longer live here. But I want you to know God, the God of our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is my God and I want Him to be your God, too. Remember, He will always use His power to help you. He will be your safe place in trouble. Stay in the secret place He has for you. Remember, with every step you take, His angels are watching out for you." Even though Moses was taught in all the wisdom of Egypt, he still followed the faith of his mother. Think about how powerful his mother's influence was over her young child, considering how short her opportunity was.
Now, let's look at the story of little Samuel in 1 Samuel 1:9-28. His mother, Hannah, kept him with her until he was weaned. These few years were the only time she had with him. Then, as she had promised the Lord, she brought him to the House of the Lord while he was young. From then on, she only saw him once a year. It was his mother's faith and teaching that influenced this mighty prophet.
Parents and teachers, your little children are ready and waiting to hear about God from you. It is an opportunity for all of us to study the Bible for ourselves, so that we are ready to teach them. It is an opportunity to spend time in prayer, drawing close to God, so that we can share with them our first hand knowledge of Him.

http://www.abchomepreschool.com/Bible/BibleCurriculums.htm

Preschool Bible Curriculums
Teaching the Bible to your Preschooler - It is never to early to start teaching your child the Bible. As a matter of fact, the Preschool Years are the perfect time to begin if you haven't started teaching your Child about the Bible and God. Preschool aged children are like sponges and absorb almost anything you begin teaching them at this time.

http://rightbibleforme.com/childrens-audio-bible

Children’s Versions Of The Audio Bible.

Children have been likened to sponges, in that when they are very young they are able to learn and pick up, or soak up, a huge amount of information. If you want to make a lasting impression on your chidren it makes sense to introduce your children to Bible stories early on.

This is Christians telling other Christian parents how to get their children to be Christian. They aren't pretending they are instilling important critical thinking techniques, or rational evaluation. They aren't pretending that their toddlers are rationally determining what they are being taught is true or not. They recognize this is how children work and are using that fact to teach them what they want them to accept.

What ever we think about it at least they are being honest about it.

Is it selfish of a parent to force their religion onto their child

Comments