Is it selfish of a parent to force their religion onto their child

Dades · 08-04-2010 10:50AM

Erren Music wrote: »

MODS
Can we have a new rule in our charter.

You clearly haven't read the existing charter so I don't see the point.

This isn't your forum to do and say what you like. Consider this your final warning.

PDN · 08-04-2010 11:05AM

Dubhghaillix wrote: »

Mark 7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

This is the bit where he critizes the Jews for not killing their children like Skygod told them to. You know, since Jesus really had this whole "morality" thing down.

Hmm, this leads us to another question, doesn't it?

Is it selfish of a parent to force their child to learn how to read and to gain elementary literary skills such as comprehension of the English language?

Dubhghaillix · 08-04-2010 11:19AM

PDN wrote: »

Hmm, this leads us to another question, doesn't it?

Is it selfish of a parent to force their child to learn how to read and to gain elementary literary skills such as comprehension of the English language?

Yes, because Mandarin will be more important by the time they grow up.

Blank_ · 08-04-2010 12:02PM

Joey the lips wrote: »

Really its a stupid question in this subject. Its no more extreme than forcing atheism...

Everybody is born atheist afaik :pac:
Parents want to teach their children what they think is good for them, I think its normal. It doesnt mean the kids will become religious after all, might even get them out of religion pretty fast is the parents are obsessed with it.

So I would say its ok to teach your kids what you want, as long as you don't force it and let them free to disagree.

philologos · 08-04-2010 12:17PM

Blank_ wrote: »

Everybody is born atheist afaik :pac:

I would say people are born agnostic. They haven't decided, they don't know much about anything in existence, let alone about what could have caused everything to be.

Atheism is a different kettle of fish to agnosticism.

Blank_ · 08-04-2010 12:25PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I would say people are born agnostic. They haven't decided, they don't know much about anything in existence, let alone about what could have caused everything to be.

Atheism is a different kettle of fish to agnosticism.

True but non-belief doesnt require any "effort", when on the other hand you have to find which religion/deity, which branch, etc...

(Not sure how to phrase this, sorry English is not my first language

)

Dades · 08-04-2010 12:28PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I would say people are born agnostic. They haven't decided, they don't know much about anything in existence, let alone about what could have caused everything to be.

Atheism is a different kettle of fish to agnosticism.

I'd go further and say they're neither. They're just kids.

Galvasean · 08-04-2010 12:35PM

I suppose it boils down to whether or not you class people without the ability to recognise or comprehend what a God is as atheists. Since an atheist is technically someone who doesn't believe in God, they probably are technically atheists, in the same way that rocks and trees are atheists.

Nick_oliveri · 08-04-2010 12:37PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Although, I think this isn't about forcing, it's about offering. Hypothetically, if I had children, I would of course want them to know about Jesus, because of what it has come to mean for me, and the greater implications of salvation. I would want my children to know God, and to love Him, and to grow each day in Him as I have.

That's selfish? Give me a break. That's the most compassionate thing I can do for anyone.

Offering my ass tbh. Its indoctrination and forced idealism. "I want my children to love god"..... "I would want my children to know God, and to love Him, and to grow each day in Him as I have".

There it is right there, you wont offer anything, you want them to do as you do. How can you offer them anything when you would refer to god as factual before they are even old enough to question anything. Hell, you would even baptise them before they could understand words. Is it all about what you want?

Would it not be enough to consider giving them their individuality and letting them decide for themselves at a reasonable age? Do you not think your god will love them anyways? Is that not enough?

Santa Claus/Tooth fairy just go to show how easy it is. I believe that we should encourage nothing only individualism, i.e the individual decides Her or His affiliations,ideals, sexual preference, morals and stances on their own. Out of the Jewish, moslem, christian, buddist etc. labels.

Yes, it is quite selfish.

robindch · 08-04-2010 12:41PM

PDN wrote: »

Is it selfish of a parent to force their child to learn how to read and to gain elementary literary skills such as comprehension of the English language?

No, because the parent is teaching something that is true (however one defines that for a language). Teaching a religion is effectively teaching a world-view, and in christianity's case, a pretty bizarre one.

Parents have a right to teach their kids, but they have a reciprocal responsibility not to abuse the trust that kids place in them by passing off fable as fact.

JimiTime · 08-04-2010 12:58PM

Both myself and Jackass have asked the following question, but it is mixed up in other posts we wrote. I think its a very good question for those who think a parent teaching a child a particular religion is wrong. here it goes:

Those who think teaching their children with relation to their religion is wrong, what do you propose be done? is it a case that you just want to talk about it, or are you looking to legislate or do something against it?
If so, what do you propose be done?

philologos · 08-04-2010 01:05PM

Galvasean wrote: »

I suppose it boils down to whether or not you class people without the ability to recognise or comprehend what a God is as atheists. Since an atheist is technically someone who doesn't believe in God, they probably are technically atheists, in the same way that rocks and trees are atheists.

Rocks, and trees, also have qualities that most atheists wouldn't take too kindly to.

Most notably that they lack any cognitive faculties to be able to reason.

Perhaps not the best analogy :pac:

I second JimiTimes question. What do you suggest be done? Should teaching children about faith be illegal?

iUseVi · 08-04-2010 01:16PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Rocks, and trees, also have qualities that most atheists wouldn't take too kindly to.

Most notably that they lack any cognitive faculties to be able to reason.

Perhaps not the best analogy :pac:

I second JimiTimes question. What do you suggest be done? Should teaching children about faith be illegal?

There's a difference between telling a child about Christianity and brainwashing. We don't like the brainwashing.

Tell your child what you believe, and that others believe other stuff. Is that so hard?

philologos · 08-04-2010 01:23PM

iUseVi wrote: »

There's a difference between telling a child about Christianity and brainwashing. We don't like the brainwashing.

Tell your child what you believe, and that others believe other stuff. Is that so hard?

It's not so hard. Christians don't regard all other beliefs as being equally valid. So of course I would put particular emphasis on the Gospel and on Christianity.

There appears to be a lack of understanding on the side of atheists, particularly robindch on where the Christian is coming on this one:

robindch wrote:

No, because the parent is teaching something that is true (however one defines that for a language). Teaching a religion is effectively teaching a world-view, and in christianity's case, a pretty bizarre one.

It never arose to robindch to think that Christians believe that the Gospel is true, in the same way as the English language is true and functional in conversing. In fact it isn't only as true, it is more true. It is the epitome of all truth.

Zombrex · 08-04-2010 01:40PM

Jakkass wrote: »

So, if this is "wrong", how many of you support enforcing that parents shouldn't be allowed to share their faith with their children in law?

Parents can do plenty of things that are "wrong" but not illegal. It is not illegal to teach your children that the banking crisis was started by black people, or that homosexuals invented AIDS. Still not a particularly good idea either.

Far better to "whinge about it" as Jimi so inaccurately put it, than try and in act laws, because the purpose is to get the parents to realize it is a bad idea not simply make them stop.

Better parenting should be the goal, not legislation.

Dubhghaillix · 08-04-2010 01:47PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Far better to "whinge about it" as Jimi so inaccurately put it, than try and in act laws, because the purpose is to get the parents to realize it is a bad idea not simply make them stop.

That's pretty much all anyone can do. Any legislation that interferes with the autonomy of the marital family would be unconstitutional in Irish law. A change in the zeitgeist like what happened with smoking or drink driving is what's needed.

Sam Vimes · 08-04-2010 01:47PM

Jakkass wrote: »

It never arose to robindch to think that Christians believe that the Gospel is true, in the same way as the English language is true and functional in conversing. In fact it isn't only as true, it is more true. It is the epitome of all truth.

Do you think it's ok for a parent to teach a child anything as long as the parent believes what they are saying to be true or do you think there are cases where even though the parent thinks something is the truth, you still don't like the idea of their children being taught that it is the truth?

iUseVi · 08-04-2010 01:48PM

Jakkass wrote: »

It never arose to robindch to think that Christians believe that the Gospel is true, in the same way as the English language is true and functional in conversing. In fact it isn't only as true, it is more true. It is the epitome of all truth.

I understand that you think its 100% true. But surely your faith is personal to you? I'm guessing that you came to accept Christianity over a period of time and because of a series of events. You cannot prove to your child that its 100% true anymore than you can prove that to us.

Not allowing a child to discover their world-view for themselves makes them into a Christian zombie. I've seen this happen, people brought up in this way don't question anything. More than 9 times out of 10 they stick 100% to what they were brought up us.

If you start teaching a specific world view when a child is small, this will be in no small way ingrained into them. This is of course how hundreds of religions all over the world still flourish. Religions are much more resilient than for example languages.

I'm sure you've heard the Jesuit quote "Give me the child until he is seven and I care not who has him thereafter." (There are variations on what the quote is.) This is horrific precisely because it is true. Children are sponges at a young age and their brains are still forming a stable pattern. So if you want to bring your child up as Christian there is a high probability you will succeed.

I think it boils down to whether you want your child to be a zombie clone of yourself or whether you want your child to have the privilege of making their own way in the world. Whether or not Christianity is true has no bearing on whether a child has been forced down a certain path, without the same freedom to choose. They should be taught how to think, not what to think.

Think about this: if Christianity really is true, then your child will be able to discover this truth for themselves. Don't you agree? If they cannot be a Christian unless it is hammered into them as a child, then it doesn't seem very likely that it is true.

philologos · 08-04-2010 01:50PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Better parenting should be the goal, not legislation.

And atheists are better parents than Christians? I find this interesting.

Zombrex · 08-04-2010 01:56PM

Jakkass wrote: »

And atheists are better parents than Christians? I find this interesting.

Groan

Zombrex · 08-04-2010 01:58PM

Dubhghaillix wrote: »

That's pretty much all anyone can do. Any legislation that interferes with the autonomy of the marital family would be unconstitutional in Irish law. A change in the zeitgeist like what happened with smoking or drink driving is what's needed.

+1

Smoking is a very good example. You don't legislate that a parent cannot smoke around their child. That would simply be ignored. You try and get the parent to realize why smoking around their child may be harmful.

philologos · 08-04-2010 02:00PM

iUseVi wrote: »

I understand that you think its 100% true. But surely your faith is personal to you? I'm guessing that you came to accept Christianity over a period of time and because of a series of events. You cannot prove to your child that its 100% true anymore than you can prove that to us.

This is the "private matter" card. Christianity for me, is a part of my public identity. I would want to share my experiences of Christianity with any children I potentially have (too young still :pac:) because of how it has benefited my life. It's the best thing I could desire for anyone to have a full and living relationship with God.

Ultimately, it is up to any thinking individual to decide if this is a good enough case. This includes any children with Christian parents.

iUseVi wrote: »

Not allowing a child to discover their world-view for themselves makes them into a Christian zombie. I've seen this happen, people brought up in this way don't question anything. More than 9 times out of 10 they stick 100% to what they were brought up us.

Teaching about Christianity at home doesn't allow a child to discover their own world view?

This is based on the assumption that children automatically believe the same thing as their parents do. This isn't exactly true. I personally share disagreements with family members about Christianity, how I regard certain aspects of it, amongst other things. So, yes I am a Christian, but I have discovered this through my own reasoning for the most part, rather than what I learned as a child.

iUseVi wrote: »

If you start teaching a specific world view when a child is small, this will be in no small way ingrained into them. This is of course how hundreds of religions all over the world still flourish. Religions are much more resilient than for example languages.

I don't know where you are getting the notion that teaching about Christianity deprives the child of thought. It is the responsibility of the parent to teach a child about how best it is to act in the world. Christianity provides a solid basis for moral and ethical behaviour.

As for what children decide to do in later life, that is up to them.

iUseVi wrote: »

I'm sure you've heard the Jesuit quote "Give me the child until he is seven and I care not who has him thereafter." (There are variations on what the quote is.) This is horrific precisely because it is true. Children are sponges at a young age and their brains are still forming a stable pattern. So if you want to bring your child up as Christian there is a high probability you will succeed.

What's wrong with someone becoming / remaining Christian? I believe thoughtful and questioning Christianity should be encouraged rather than unquestioning faith.

Thankfully, this type of Christianity seems to be becoming more prevalent. Engaging with peoples minds more seriously rather than telling them just believe, people are starting to say, this is why I believe this to be reasonable.

iUseVi wrote: »

I think it boils down to whether you want your child to be a zombie clone of yourself or whether you want your child to have the privilege of making their own way in the world. Whether or not Christianity is true has no bearing on whether a child has been forced down a certain path, without the same freedom to choose. They should be taught how to think, not what to think.

Not at all.

iUseVi wrote: »

Think about this: if Christianity really is true, then your child will be able to discover this truth for themselves. Don't you agree? If they cannot be a Christian unless it is hammered into them as a child, then it doesn't seem very likely that it is true.

How will they discover this truth for themselves if the wishes of the people on this forum are fulfilled.

If Christianity is a private matter, and if nobody speaks about it in public, or at home, it won't be found and it won't be learned. I hate this idea of peoples faiths being regarded as merely something "private". Faith is never intended to be something private, but something that informs every day behaviour. I don't consider hate a strong word in this case.

Wicknight: You brought up the "better parenting" case, and that regarding Christianity as something to be shared in the family context as being "bad parenting". So the logical conclusion is that atheists who don't do either, are better parents.

Zombrex · 08-04-2010 02:09PM

Jakkass wrote: »

This is the "private matter" card. Christianity for me, is a part of my public identity. I would want to share my experiences of Christianity with any children I potentially have (too young still :pac:) because of how it has benefited my life. It's the best thing I could desire for anyone to have a full and living relationship with God.

Ultimately, it is up to any thinking individual to decide if this is a good enough case. This includes any children with Christian parents.

You are ignoring though that children have an instinctive tendency to accept what they are told by their parents because they are told it by their parents.

So they won't "decide it this is a good enough case" if you simply tell them it is true. They will simply accept that it is true. That is actually a good thing in many ways, it allows parents to very quickly instill basic sense of things in a child, such a the main road is dangerous, don't steal your brothers ice cream, listen to your father etc etc

But parents shouldn't take advantage of this bond between parent and child to instill all the parents beliefs in the children. It is up to the parent to mindful of what they are teaching their children and when they are teaching them.

If you genuinely care about your children deciding for themselves about Christianity you should be mindful of this as well.

meditraitor · 08-04-2010 02:13PM

It begs the question, Would some of the more Vocal A&A posters be willing to give their own children an education in religion without forcing their opinion on the child?

See I dont think so and this brings us back to the main point which in my opinion is either ignorant or arrogant in the extreme.

Only a person who has no kids could come up with a crazy idea of not forcing your beliefs on the child, its human nature and therefore will happen!

BTW I do not subscribe to any religion....... I do however think that people who over emphasise or spend their life preaching their lack of beliefs are wasting to much time in what is a short life...... I even think my replying to this post is a waste but this thread is annoying me.

philologos · 08-04-2010 02:19PM

Wicknight wrote: »

You are ignoring though that children have an instinctive tendency to accept what they are told by their parents because they are told it by their parents.

I'm actually questioning this assumption that you have. Why aren't you still Christian, if this is true?

Wicknight wrote: »

So they won't "decide it this is a good enough case" if you simply tell them it is true. They will simply accept that it is true. That is actually a good thing in many ways, it allows parents to very quickly instill basic sense of things in a child, such a the main road is dangerous, don't steal your brothers ice cream, listen to your father etc etc

There is a time, when kids become adults, and in that frame of time end up thinking about whether or not belief or unbelief is a reasonable position to hold. I ended up wrestling with this myself as a teenager. I eventually after several years came to the conclusion that God does exist, and indeed it is by far the most reasonable conclusion to hold.

Wicknight wrote: »

But parents shouldn't take advantage of this bond between parent and child to instill all the parents beliefs in the children. It is up to the parent to mindful of what they are teaching their children and when they are teaching them.

It isn't "taking advantage". It bears no advantage to them to give their child a real relationship with God. That's why I question the whole notion of it being selfish. People don't share the Gospel with others for their own benefit, but rather for the benefit of others.

I'm quite sure those who do teach their children about Christianity are mindful of what they are doing, and are not only mindful, but do so out of a belief that they are offering their child an invaluable opportunity to know their God as they have.

Wicknight wrote: »

If you genuinely care about your children deciding for themselves about Christianity you should be mindful of this as well.

If I had children, and it's not just in the case of children. I care for people in general, coming to know their God in a full, meaningful and thoughtful manner.

JimiTime · 08-04-2010 02:28PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Parents can do plenty of things that are "wrong" but not illegal. It is not illegal to teach your children that the banking crisis was started by black people, or that homosexuals invented AIDS. Still not a particularly good idea either.

thats not the question though. The question was would you like something to be done?

Far better to "whinge about it" as Jimi so inaccurately put it,

Indeed I did, so apologies for that. Using 'whinge' was rather contentious of me. 'Venting frustrations about' would probably have been better. I did use a bit more decorum when I reposted the question though. Forgive?:)

than try and in act laws, because the purpose is to get the parents to realize it is a bad idea not simply make them stop.

Better parenting should be the goal, not legislation.

I don't have issue with people discussing it, but some use such pejorative terms etc about it, I find it hard to believe that they'd stop there. At the end of the day, if you 'truly' believe that me teaching my child Christianity constitutes 'child abuse', then why wouldn't you look to stop it?

iUseVi · 08-04-2010 02:34PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm actually questioning this assumption that you have. Why aren't you still Christian, if this is true?

There is a time, when kids become adults, and in that frame of time end up thinking about whether or not belief or unbelief is a reasonable position to hold. I ended up wrestling with this myself as a teenager. I eventually after several years came to the conclusion that God does exist, and indeed it is by far the most reasonable conclusion to hold.

I'm just answering in between jobs, so forgive me please if I pick and choose points a bit.

The point I was trying to make is that if children are exposed predominantly to a single position, most of them will remain in that position. Their brain patterns will be trained a certain way. This is not to say that they don't have doubts, but that they are much less likely to form a different position. Now there are exceptions to this rule, myself being one of them. But the huge majority of my Christian childhood friends are still Christian. And still the same denomination of Christianity.

If we had grown up in an Islamic state....well you know.

Sam Vimes · 08-04-2010 02:39PM

meditraitor wrote: »

It begs the question, Would some of the more Vocal A&A posters be willing to give their own children an education in religion without forcing their opinion on the child?

See I dont think so and this brings us back to the main point which in my opinion is either ignorant or arrogant in the extreme.

I'd have no problem with my child learning about any religion. Religion is a big part of our history so you can't just airbrush it out. I'd want my child to learn about all the major religions, just not that one is true and the rest are false

ColmDawson · 08-04-2010 02:41PM

meditraitor wrote: »

Would some of the more Vocal A&A posters be willing to give their own children an education in religion without forcing their opinion on the child?

Definitely. Religious culture is a huge part of human history and by learning about it, people can make educated choices. Don't forget that many A&A posters are deeply interested in theology.

Sam Vimes · 08-04-2010 02:43PM

JimiTime wrote: »

I don't have issue with people discussing it, but some use such pejorative terms etc about it, I find it hard to believe that they'd stop there. At the end of the day, if you 'truly' believe that me teaching my child Christianity constitutes 'child abuse', then why wouldn't you look to stop it?

Surely you believe that anyone teaching their child that any religion but christianity is true (or that no religion is true) is the worst form of child abuse possible because they are drastically increasing the possibility that their child will go to hell. Their child must have the strength of will to reject the religion of their parents and peers and accept christianity instead and we both know that that doesn't happen in >95% of cases. Why don't you look to legislate to stop this?

Is it selfish of a parent to force their religion onto their child

Comments