Gilmore accuses Cowen of "economic treason"

Permabear · 31-03-2010 04:25PM #1

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Time Magazine · 31-03-2010 04:32PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, it wasn't treason. He is however guilty of the highest level of damaging incompetence of any politician ever in Ireland. He was the Minister for Finance who established the current regulatory regime and who failed to display any sort of fiscal prudence during the entirety of our largest economic boom ever.

There was no malice or ill-intent. He is just a grossly incompetent man who has yet to apologise for his mistakes or to have the decency to resign as Taoiseach. Despite it clearly being the wish of the electorate.

i57dwun4yb1pt8 · 31-03-2010 04:54PM

hes an intelligent man, surrounded by well paid advisors - yet he is incompetent ?

hmmm, I think treasonous is more likely than incompetent

far more likely.

sirromo · 31-03-2010 04:56PM

Reading this article that Kevin Myers wrote a few weeks ago did get me wondering if our government is acting primarily in Ireland's national interest.

Kevin Myers wrote:

For the EU empire policy is to keep even worthless banks afloat: in just 18 months, there were no less than 70 bank/state-interventions across Europe, done under commission guidelines. Dear old Neelie Kroes was frank: "But the partner dynamic does not imply these are voluntary processes: we have no realistic alternative."

Maybe. But there is this other motive. Like all empires, the EU project depends on power and if it weathers this storm, the commission will be able to reform the entire retail and merchant banking sectors, from Galway to Gdansk, on lines congenial to its imperial interests.

Mr.Micro · 31-03-2010 05:09PM

Cowen does not have a clue what is going on? He probably does not even remember being Finance Minister. He has no answers or solutions, a man completely out of his depth or the scale of what needs to be done. He needs to be removed as Taoiseach.

moonpurple · 31-03-2010 05:10PM

america let lehmann sink, and the sky did not fall,

jmayo · 31-03-2010 05:18PM

You see once again how Gilmore comes across as the great man leading the opposition fighting for the poeple because his comment was the one most reported.

Except the comment or question that is the most telling was that made by Kenny when he referred to how cowen had a private dinner with the board of Anglo the week after the Quinn CFDs bailout was setup in April 2008.

On April 24 2008, Brian Cowen sat down for a private dinner with the board of Anglo Irish including chairman Sean FitzPatrick and the chief executive David Drumm.at their headquarters on St Stephen’s Green
A few weeks previously The Maple Project had been set up with the knowledge of the Financial Regulator to reduce businessman Sean Quinn’s financial interest in the bank. Quinn held 28% of Anglo Irish Bank through instruments known as contracts for difference.

Internal documents from the bank show that over a four-month period in 2008, Pat Neary, the then financial regulator, and his staff were kept abreast of the plan to reduce a secret 28% shareholding held by the insurance tycoon.

Just days before the bank lent €500m to 10 of its most highly-regarded clients to buy almost one-third of the stake controlled by Quinn, David Drumm, Anglo’s chief executive, sent an email to a colleague saying that the regulator was “squared”. Other documents refer to John Hurley, the then Central Bank governor, being briefed on Quinn’s massive exposure to the bank.

Now this was what first rattled cowen today.
He said that he would treat that remark with contempt.

Now is inconceivable that the minister of finance had dinner with the chairman, CEO and board without raising the issue of them lending money to some of the banks customers to buy the CFDs (affectively share options in the bank) held by sean quinn owner of one of the biggest insurance companies in the country ?

Thus I suggest that cowen knew of the dodgy deals, saw nothing wrong with it and condoned what in most countries would be seen as insider dealing and misleading the markets.

Sir Oxman · 31-03-2010 05:21PM

jmayo wrote: »

You see once again how Gilmore comes across as the great man leading the opposition fighting for the poeple because his comment was the one most reported.

Except the comment or question that is the most telling was that made by Kenny when he referred to how cowen had a private dinner with the board of Anglo the week after the Quinn CFDs bailout was setup in April 2008.

Now this was what first rattled cowen today.
He said that he would treat that remark with contempt.

Now is inconceivable that the minister of finance had dinner with the chairman, CEO and board without raising the issue of them lending money to some of the banks customers to buy the CFDs (affectively share options in the bank) held by sean quinn owner of one of the biggest insurance companies in the country ?

Thus I suggest that cowen knew of the dodgy deals, saw nothing wrong with it and condoned what in most countries would be seen as insider dealing and misleading the markets.

+1

And to answer the OP, yes it is treasonous.

FINGAL FAN · 31-03-2010 05:23PM

I regard Cowen as a incompetent idiot who puts party before country along with all the clowns he has gathered around him .

Amhran Nua · 31-03-2010 05:39PM

DaDumTish wrote: »

hes an intelligent man, surrounded by well paid advisors - yet he is incompetent ?

As the saying goes, never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. I'd say in this case its a healthy mixture of both, but even Cowen must realise by this stage that he was never running the show.

Laminations · 31-03-2010 05:47PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

As the saying goes, never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. I'd say in this case its a healthy mixture of both, but even Cowen must realise by this stage that he was never running the show.

Never award stupidity OR malice with a cushy pension, car and driver for life.

mike65 · 31-03-2010 05:48PM

Cowen is not a traitor and its stupid language to use. He is weak and not very good at his job. Now if he'd been a finance minister in North Korea....

galwayrush · 31-03-2010 06:33PM

Treason by gross incompetence.:(

Sir Oxman · 31-03-2010 06:38PM

mike65 wrote: »

Cowen is not a traitor and its stupid language to use. He is weak and not very good at his job.

No, it's silly to use it against the leader of the opposition criticising B Ahern when he was in S Africa in 2008 - it's very pertinent to apply it to a man who has been and is at the epicentre of the greatest disaster to hit this country since the Civil War.
And in that charge, he is most certainly not alone.

nacho libre · 31-03-2010 06:44PM

i notice he's fond of using the best advice at the time defense when challenged. so bascially he is in effect admitting he's a figurehead and is incapable of using his own initiative to challenge advice and make decisions. so really he's admtting indirectly he's incompetent/fit for office.

so at best you can say in his defense, that he was a buffoon surrounded by clueless buffoons whispering his ears, or he was a buffoon who was not listening to prudent advice. actually neither scenario are really much of a defense!

hipster2009 · 31-03-2010 07:19PM

Cowen and Ahern are equally responsible for the mess as the country was been run based on who gave the most money to FF at the tent in Galway!:(

They sold out all of us for the party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

snow ghost · 31-03-2010 07:21PM

'Economic Treason' - absolute genius and entirely accurate accusation from Gilmore... the perfect description.

And I gaurantee that in years to come future generations will remember Cowen and his cronies for committing 'economic treason'. Those two little words will become as well known as 'boycott'.

Nice to see Cowen trying very unsuccessfully to weasle his way out by playing the patriot game card... and then when Enda had him on the ropes he was unable to do anything but mutter than he held the comment in contempt... and fair play to Enda - he came back with a very apt reply.

What I can't understand is that RTE news said that Cowen showed clear emotion after Gilmore's comment... he did in his hole, he showed the his fake indignation when faced clearly with the truth.

These people are traitors to Ireland... they have used this country for their own avarice and are no better than the Tans, if anything they are worse because they are doing it to their own.

Pride Fighter · 31-03-2010 07:21PM

Bailing out his developer friends that fund Fianna Fail. All at the expense of the taxpayer.

Sounds like treason to me.

theg81der · 31-03-2010 07:36PM

treason - a crime that undermines the offender's government
treason - disloyalty by virtue of subversive behavior
treason - treachery: an act of deliberate betrayal

So yes then by these definitions! Bailing out his buddies at the expense of his country and countrymen (and women - forever!).

And don`t think Enda Kenny or anyone else thats there wouldn`t have done almost the identical thing or will when they get in - we need a complete rethink!

rovert · 31-03-2010 07:50PM

Great quotable by Gilmore

silverharp · 31-03-2010 07:55PM

Treason no. However on the one hand one has to call into question the idea that a professional politician, or the lawyers or other professions that seems to proliferate in politics should be let near any decision making as to how an economy should be run or managed? very few have any track record in business and if you wouldnt thrust them to manage a McDonalds franchise, why would anyone give them the keys to the loot. In short I doubt if mattered, had any of the other likely suspects had the key posts, the result would have been the same

On the other hand as I think DF maybe coming at this from a free market perspective, was the system designed to fail given that everyone at the top only has a 5 year time horizon and clearly the establishment had an incentive to be pro cyclical. Yes for sure - plus the reams of poor policies from benchmarking to decentralisation to tax breaks for hotels/property and to the planning system for creating artificial shortages.

Peronally when I am making big decisions in life I have to take at least a 10/20 year horizon, for instance I wouldnt dream of buying a second house or car unless I had locked in school fees for the kids and paid off the mortgage. Now that maybe just me but it is natural for people generally have longer timeframes then the term of an average government. It however seems impossible for big government to coordinate longer time frames. For instance thanks largely to the fact that people have no control over the services that gov provide we have 200K too many properties yet we have a creaking water infrastructure, which in an alternate reality would be invested in first ahead of say giving people free money to build hotels. And that's before getting into generational welfare issues which most countries have firmly buried their heads in the sand over. But hay what do I know!

patmar · 31-03-2010 08:24PM

Labour is nearly 100 years old
FG is nearly 80 years old

Neither have remotely come close to forming a single party government

Neithwr can claim to have achieved anything worthwhile in their now long miserable history

It will be 30 years before they win enough seats to form a government between them

They have lost the last 6 elections in a row

The last time they were in government it was handed to them on a plate to do a specific job. They failed miserably ! One of the reasons they failed was because included in that government were a group with a dirty political record. The other two parties had a shocking record of failure when in government

These perpetual losers are passing judgement on the only party that has done anything to benefit the people of Ireland

These perpetual losers are calling the leader of FF a traitor

These perpetual losers should take a good look in the mirror ask themselves what exactly is wrong with them

SLUSK · 31-03-2010 08:37PM

What kind of government guarantees all deposits? That is beyond insanity. In Sweden they guarantee deposits of up to €50 000 per bank and I think this amount is too much. There should be no bank guarantees from government. I am not sure if treason is the correct term to use but guaranteeing all deposits was just madness.

theg81der · 31-03-2010 08:51PM

"These perpetual losers are passing judgement on the only party that has done anything to benefit the people of Ireland"

What? what have they done? Bankrupt and ruin our country for years to come - this post has made me quite angry! :mad:

I was with you when I thought you were saying they`re all as bad as each other, which is my point also, but no you actually believe FF are a cut above. Typical FF arrogance and delusion thats all I can say!

snow ghost · 31-03-2010 09:08PM

Patmar,

Party allegiances are irrelavant... the difference is treasonable Cowen and his cronies are culpable in the present, and not only that but they are also traitors to the Fianna Fail party.

When was the last time Fine Gael were in government and what baring does that have on the present, which is under Cowen's watch?

Bit like saying that Ron Atkinson is to blame because man United lost last night - a weak argument usually trotted out by those justifying the indefensible.

Eliot Rosewater · 31-03-2010 09:35PM

Silverharp2 wrote: »

was the system designed to fail given that everyone at the top only has a 5 year time horizon and clearly the establishment had an incentive to be pro cyclical.

Thats one part of it for sure. People themselves tend to think short term, as we've seen with the global recession, and the Government is there to satisfy that poor decision making basis.

I also think that a lot of Government economic decisions can be tied to the fact that benefits are concentrated while costs are diluted. A tariff on a certain good will cause the price to go up. The higher price will be shouldered by the whole population, and will be hardly felt on an individual basis. However the beneficiaries - the producers of the same good domestically - are relativly few, and with less people to share the benefits each person gets a lot. So those beneficiaries are going to try and get in the ear of those in Dáil.

Obviously that kind of specific example doesn't happen in Dublin, what with the single EU market, but the central principle spreads to vast areas of Government spending. The same principle is why building motorways is a vote winner: it costs the average taxpayer little but benefits the local person a lot.

juuge · 31-03-2010 09:48PM

Poor pitiful Cowen, as RTE put it...his 'emotional response' to Eamon Gilmore. A lot less emotional Mr Cowen than driving home to tell your wife and kids that you’ve been made redundant, or having just about scraped up the mortgage for a house now worth half of what you owe and having a measly few bob left to buy food and heat. Yeah Mr Cowan you have a good auld cry for yourself followed by a round of applause from your party cronies. My heart bleeds for ya!

silverharp · 31-03-2010 09:58PM

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I also think that a lot of Government economic decisions can be tied to the fact that benefits are concentrated while costs are diluted. A tariff on a certain good will cause the price to go up. The higher price will be shouldered by the whole population, and will be hardly felt on an individual basis. However the beneficiaries - the producers of the same good domestically - are relativly few, and with less people to share the benefits each person gets a lot. So those beneficiaries are going to try and get in the ear of those in Dáil.

I agree with that, its the whole "seen versus unseen" idea. In the hands of the government and seperated from market signals we get any number of crazy spending/tax decisions and or illiberal laws and regulation all dressed up as either helping people or for the greater good, when in reality the motivation is a payoff to some producer group , lobby or voting group.

Liam Byrne · 31-03-2010 10:39PM

patmar wrote: »

Labour is nearly 100 years old
FG is nearly 80 years old

Neither have remotely come close to forming a single party government

So ? I'd prefer a competent coalition to a single party government.

patmar wrote: »

The last time they were in government it was handed to them on a plate to do a specific job. They failed miserably ! One of the reasons they failed was because included in that government were a group with a dirty political record. The other two parties had a shocking record of failure when in government

Define "shocking record of failure"....

(This should be interesting, considering "completely annihalating an economy and making matters even worse by bailing out their mates in banks" obviously doesn't register with you as a "failure")

patmar wrote: »

These perpetual losers are passing judgement on the only party that has done anything to benefit the people of Ireland

Ah yes, we love the "benefit" of handing over our hard-earned billions to a group of private unidentified FF cronies.

patmar wrote: »

These perpetual losers are calling the leader of FF a traitor

With good reason.

patmar wrote: »

These perpetual losers should take a good look in the mirror ask themselves what exactly is wrong with them

If you were referring to FF, then I'd agree 100%. Unfortunately you're not.

:rolleyes:

Mr.Micro · 31-03-2010 10:56PM

Posted by patmar
The last time they were in government it was handed to them on a plate to do a specific job. They failed miserably ! One of the reasons they failed was because included in that government were a group with a dirty political record. The other two parties had a shocking record of failure when in government

What would you say this Government achieved as opposed to failure of labour and FG? I know what its not failure its way beyond that, dereliction of duty, gross negligence and financial meltdown of an order that the country may never be rid of, corruption, cronyism .....need I go on. Failure looks good compared to the legacy of Ahern and Cowen.

freewheeler · 31-03-2010 11:03PM

patmar wrote: »

Labour is nearly 100 years old
FG is nearly 80 years old

Neither have remotely come close to forming a single party government

Neithwr can claim to have achieved anything worthwhile in their now long miserable history

It will be 30 years before they win enough seats to form a government between them

They have lost the last 6 elections in a row

The last time they were in government it was handed to them on a plate to do a specific job. They failed miserably ! One of the reasons they failed was because included in that government were a group with a dirty political record. The other two parties had a shocking record of failure when in government

These perpetual losers are passing judgement on the only party that has done anything to benefit the people of Ireland

These perpetual losers are calling the leader of FF a traitor

These perpetual losers should take a good look in the mirror ask themselves what exactly is wrong with them

You are trying to defend these traitors by deflecting the blame..brilliant strategy, however these clowns that you support have now shown us exactly where their priorities lie(if we didn't know already) Shame on them and all their supporters..hopefully it will eventually lead to their permanent demise and rid our country of these spineless buffoons.I hope that you and your ilk are happy at what you have inflicted on us all.

Gilmore accuses Cowen of "economic treason"

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