Security guards/batons?

kravmaga · 28-03-2010 04:22PM

jd83 wrote: »

Video camera headset is a great idea. Seen it on some tv show once where the bouncer had a head set. No cuffs or battons or anything like that. Police and people working in other goverment agencies go through a long drawn out recruitment process. Then through a lot of training. Plenty of opportunities to single out the nutjobs and agro heads. People working in security dont get this. They get a background check and a couple of days training. If there were handing out batons and even if they got training there would be stories every week about Security staff using excessive force.

What about Garda using excessive force here after all the training ?

Case in example May day riots in Dame Street in 2003, Garda so called Public Order unit lost the plot on that day.

Look at the Met in London, much more professional force.

ex_infantry man · 28-03-2010 04:23PM

Nemanja91 wrote: »

Thats cool, I always wanted to join the Army but I'm colorblind.

ah thats a bummer!!

28-03-2010 04:52PM

I reckon (wooden) nightsticks should be legal. I have a nightstick that's made of wood and covered in masking tape (I was a Big Boss Man fan!) and it'd hurt you something serious if you got a good belt of it, but it wouldn't do as much damage as anything made of steel/metal, etc.

jd83 · 28-03-2010 05:16PM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

What about Garda using excessive force here after all the training ?

Case in example May day riots in Dame Street in 2003, Garda so called Public Order unit lost the plot on that day.

Look at the Met in London, much more professional force.

Yes your right there has been incidents in the past where gardai have used excess force. Im never said they didnt. If security guards had the same equipment there would be stories like this every week.

AnalFistyCuffs · 28-03-2010 05:34PM

jd83 wrote: »

If security guards had the same equipment there would be stories like this every week.

You are dead right JD. It is because of a road rage incident involving an off-duty security guard in Dublin, seriously assaulting another driver with his baton (retrieved from boot of car) that the court judge started the ball rolling in the banning of 'defensive/offensive' weapons being carried by security personnel. It only takes one muppet to ruin it

starviewadams · 28-03-2010 06:07PM

foreign wrote: »

What made you think they were security guards and not members of the garda? And which 24 hour shop was this. sure the local gards would like to know.

I just guessed they weren't members of the Gardai because they were both Polish/eastern european.

Dont want to get anybody in trouble so dont think it would be wise to give out the name/location of the shop.

DubMedic · 28-03-2010 06:36PM

starviewadams wrote: »

I just guessed they weren't members of the Gardai because they were both Polish/eastern european.

Dont want to get anybody in trouble so dont think it would be wise to give out the name/location of the shop.

Yeah, all members of An Garda Siochana are born and bred in the shticks. :rolleyes::rolleyes:.

.

kravmaga · 28-03-2010 07:07PM

foinse wrote: »

Under Irish law, pepper spray is classed as a firearm, so no i would definately not like to see security guards carrying this. Or any weapons for that matter.

I for one believe that only members of state run bodies should be issued with this type of equipment, not a lot of people know that there are a lot of rules and regulations surrounding a member of AGS producing and using their spray/asp, and lots of reports that have to be filled in after, i won't go into too much detail but the spray is not a fire and forget weapon. If used there are questions asked and if need be investigations are conducted into the use of the spray/asp. Not something that would be able to be done if every tom dick and harry involved in security is armed with these weapons.

Its all about common sense and knowledge of the criminal law.
Use of force and excessive use of force is a grey area in this country......it has to proportionate to the level of force being used by a potential assailant.

AGS have to fill out a use of force incident report if they use their Asp or Pepper spray, Statement and obviously would have to justify their actions if a complaint were made by a memeber of the public to the Garda Ombudmans office.

You cannot generalise by saying every Tom, Dick or Harry involved in the Security industry............see my earlier post regarding PSA Licencing , Close Protection courses, Non Crisis Intervention, Conflict resoultion, Unarmed Defence tatctics, CPI etc

AGS are way behind in training techniques compared to UK and European forces.....I know this as I am ex UK Police.

kravmaga · 28-03-2010 07:36PM

jd83 wrote: »

Yes your right there has been incidents in the past where gardai have used excess force. Im never said they didnt. If security guards had the same equipment there would be stories like this every week.

Going to have to disagree with you on this one....

With the correct training, ability. common sense, knowledge of law , why would there be stories with properly trained security personnel?

28-03-2010 08:17PM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

AGS are way behind in training techniques compared to UK and European forces.....I know this as I am ex UK Police.

Are you a member of AGS? If not than you cannot speak for the level of training.

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Going to have to disagree with you on this one....

With the correct training, ability. common sense, knowledge of law , why would there be stories with properly trained security personnel?

You wouldn't be a security guard now would you?

Zambia · 28-03-2010 08:42PM

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Why can't plasticuffs be used?

Plasticuffs are just cuffs they are governed by the same laws.

Zambia · 28-03-2010 08:45PM

HFB wrote: »

+ 1
Couldn’t agree more
And the course for a PSA door supervisor or retail security licence is only a day long and doesn’t really include much on the use of force, degrees of force, reasonable force, excessive force. Terrible idea to ever give them batons, cuffs or CS

This is more an argument for extending the length and depth of the course. In reality a Security Guard could inflict terrible damage on someone without any weapons. The use of force model should be ingrained into anyone dealing with conflict.

kravmaga · 28-03-2010 09:05PM

foreign wrote: »

Are you a member of AGS? If not than you cannot speak for the level of training.

You wouldn't be a security guard now would you?

To answer your 2 points......

1. No I am not...of course I can comment on AGS training........I work along side members of ASG from Garda to Detective level and have had many conversations regarding training in Templemore.

I worked in a UK Police force for many years and worked in CID so I think I am qualified to comment about Police training in UK and Ireland thank you very much.

2. No, I am not a Security Guard. But its fair to say I have made a lot of money in the industry since my return to Dublin from UK.

Your view is coming across as narrow minded on this open debate........

You wouldn't be a member of AGS now would you?;)

If you want to PM me on my background and experience I will answer any question offline

bravestar · 29-03-2010 12:33AM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

...from Garda to Detective level...

Detective is not a rank and they have the same training, re:impact weapons/spray, as a Garda in uniform.

Detective Garda is the same rank as Garda, just a different job discription.

Locust · 29-03-2010 12:35AM

Yeah detecitve is just a step sideways not upwards. Yes, i would agree though, I've seen both UK & Ireland, and the UK is leaps and bounds ahead in training (5-10 years plus). I think its definitely something that we need more of - the more training the better. Training is NEVER over. It should be regular, People can always be learning more.

However on the security guard side of things, I don't think private security - retail/bouncers should carry batons. Self defence or otherwise... the way things are now a days legally it just gets way too messy.

seanybiker · 29-03-2010 12:37AM

wexfjord wrote: »

Are things gone that bad in waterford that you need to carry a weapon. (How did you bend it by the way)

the previous owner was arresting a member of the travelling community one night and went to break the window open but hit the door frame.
I got rid of the baton anyways. Sure if I got caught with that, well I dont know what would happen but I just couldnt be arsed with it.

Zambia · 29-03-2010 01:17AM

Locust wrote: »

However on the security guard side of things, I don't think private security - retail/bouncers should carry batons. Self defence or otherwise... the way things are now a days legally it just gets way too messy.

Way to Messy. To be fair that's not really a reason.

So do you think a Security guard is entitled to defend him or herself at all?

Leo Demidov · 29-03-2010 02:42AM

The main message conveyed in PSA training is that your most effective weapon is your head, not entirely sure that a literal approach is the intention but best use of scarce resources seems to have worked in the past. Radios, maglites etc., not weapons by definition but certainly very effective.

The current training and licencing regime is a good start but does little to reassure the public that they are dealing with a professional security person. Like most debates about weaponising particular groups, the longer it can be deferred the better. (Issuing the weapons, not the debate) As soon as security personnel are armed to a particular extent, the scumbags will have to go one further.

Most of us have seen the effect that the actions of some security personnel can have on a situation. I've seen doormen in the past launch unprovoked attacks on individuals to settle a score from a previous week, some of these people are still in the industry and until they're gone, the issuing of weapons must wait.

If, however, someone is willing to partake of one of the longer term college based courses accredited to cert/diploma level by FETAC, undertake training relevant to the correct use of a particular piece of kit and be subjected to the same level of scrutiny as an officer of the law, then I would see no problem with them being equipped, appropriate to the level of risk they face.

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of experienced individuals from the security industry.

Re; The OP's question/statement, is it more pertinent to consider arming static/retail guards as opposed to door security personnel. Static guards often work alone or in smaller numbers, similar to the scenario described, whereas door guards have a certain level of back up and historically bring a certain level of weight to an argument.

Leo Demidov · 29-03-2010 02:47AM

seanybiker wrote: »

the previous owner was arresting a member of the travelling community one night and went to break the window open but hit the door frame.

Bad aim = Bent baton

Thats one piece of information i'll be sure to retain.:eek:

Zambia · 29-03-2010 04:03AM

wexfjord wrote: »

The main message conveyed in PSA training is that your most effective weapon is your head, not entirely sure that a literal approach is the intention but best use of scarce resources seems to have worked in the past. Radios, maglites etc., not weapons by definition but certainly very effective.

I would concur that the ability to talk and converse are by far the most effective resources anyone has. Sadly the time and effort to train those skills is very difficult to class room.

I would agree in part here, by the very fact that Maglites, radios , large key bunchs etc are not weapons there is no training in the correct use of them. A maglite strike to the head could be fatal.

wexfjord wrote: »

The current training and licencing regime is a good start but does little to reassure the public that they are dealing with a professional security person. Like most debates about weaponising particular groups, the longer it can be deferred the better. (Issuing the weapons, not the debate) As soon as security personnel are armed to a particular extent, the scumbags will have to go one further.

I agree on the starting piont and that took ages to get to. It is a drastic failure in the goverment since the early 90's that the issue was never raised. There are still gapping holes in the system from what I have heard here. Training guards on the resources security companies provide is hard, to get the Professional security person you describe above is a huge task in any country.

I don't see any solid evidence that issuing of baton's to guards would result in scumbag's arming up. I would be happy to hear of cases in other countries where this has happened. Where guards have been issued with a deterent and the cases of crimes related to step up weapons have increased.

wexfjord wrote: »

Most of us have seen the effect that the actions of some security personnel can have on a situation. I've seen doormen in the past launch unprovoked attacks on individuals to settle a score from a previous week, some of these people are still in the industry and until they're gone, the issuing of weapons must wait.

Sadly here is the truth of it there are some characters in the industry that do believe they are some law unto themselves. However we are all to blame in this regard. When the public encounter such individuals they should take steps to report the incident, colleagues should do likewise and the AGS or PSA should have an investigative wing to monitor the industry.

I don't believe that there is a case for waiting till these guys phase out, every day they remain in place they train other staff in the same methods. It's really about the carrot and stick here. The state has to regulate the industry harder but in doing some offer greater training, freedom's and resources back to the industry.

wexfjord wrote: »

If, however, someone is willing to partake of one of the longer term college based courses accredited to cert/diploma level by FETAC, undertake training relevant to the correct use of a particular piece of kit and be subjected to the same level of scrutiny as an officer of the law, then I would see no problem with them being equipped, appropriate to the level of risk they face.

100% agree here. In all my time in the industry in Ireland I searched and asked for training courses there where none. Reason being employers did not want to spend the money. If you attended a course yourself you could not claim any of the cost of it. I eventually left the industry in 2000 resigning myself to the fact it would never be regulated and as such remain a terrible as opposed to not great career path. That was after 5-6 years.

wexfjord wrote: »

Re; The OP's question/statement, is it more pertinent to consider arming static/retail guards as opposed to door security personnel. Static guards often work alone or in smaller numbers, similar to the scenario described, whereas door guards have a certain level of back up and historically bring a certain level of weight to an argument.

Ideally there are several classes of guard

Static - Factory's etc
Retail - Shop Guards
Cash in transit - Armoured car crews
Door Staff - Bars/Nightclubs etc.

Door staff in my opinion as well actually have the least requirement for a Baton or handcuffs. They tend to have more back up and deal more with punters than criminal's. Plus as your average joe soap if you are going to be on the wrong end of a security assault its going to be from a doorman.

Excellent post btw.

kravmaga · 29-03-2010 09:21AM

bravestar wrote: »

Detective is not a rank and they have the same training, re:impact weapons/spray, as a Garda in uniform.

Detective Garda is the same rank as Garda, just a different job discription.

Let me clarify for you.

SDU , ie the unit in Harcourt Square

I know the rank structure in AGS , thanks for the feedback though

BigDuffman · 29-03-2010 09:52AM

wexfjord wrote: »

The main message conveyed in PSA training is that your most effective weapon is your head, not entirely sure that a literal approach is the intention but best use of scarce resources seems to have worked in the past. Radios, maglites etc., not weapons by definition but certainly very effective.

PSA training is woeful. It is essentially glorified H&S training with some awkward role play and tick the box questions.

Whilst your head and gob is the most important weapon tool in defusing a situation. Both of which are key in dealing with any rational human being in a normal situation.

The situations encountered by anyone working in the security/nightclub industry are far from normal and the people are usually well beyond rational.

The majority of doormen will use the above tools (in saying that there are some ar$eholes and scumbags) to the end of their applicable use before resorting to physical interaction.

But there are situations that unfortunately this does not work. People can harp on all they want about "just talking someone down". When your facing down 2 coked up scumbags with broken bottles, bats, knives or any other weapon the time for talking is over...

On two of the doors on which I worked on certain nights the front of house staff wore stab vests and we had two extendables (yes we were completely aware of the illegality).
The belief after many many incidents (including a co-worker being blinded and left with horrendous facial scarring after some filth bag went to work with a broken bottle) in those situations is that it is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

You can say all you want about the thugs on a door. But there is one thing I can assure you is that there are bigger, nastier thugs on the street. There is no bigger reality check when your charged by a hatchet wielding scumbag and left with nothing to defend yourself with other than radio and your head. Considering that some lads in the ind. are on no more than €14 an hour you might reconsider the stance.

kravmaga · 29-03-2010 05:02PM

starviewadams wrote: »

I just guessed they weren't members of the Gardai because they were both Polish/eastern european.

Dont want to get anybody in trouble so dont think it would be wise to give out the name/location of the shop.

If you were not happy with the alleged security staff with the alleged Asp's why have you not reported by way of a statement to the AGS.

Plus you should have contacted the shop owner and asked the name of the security firm to make a complaint to the PSA.

Otherwise what is the point of creating the thread in the first instance.

jd83 · 29-03-2010 06:33PM

Whats your point. I never said that there have been no incident with gardai. Every job has its bad apples. I just dont think security guards should have any weapons. I dont think the goverment or the psa will enforce it properly. I dont think giving out batons and spray is going to make things any better. You probably have a lot more experience on the subject than I do but there just my thoughts on the subject. Im sure I can find lots of examples where gardai have been involved in stuff like this but this thread is about security people getting the batons.

Irish_polizei · 29-03-2010 06:42PM

wexfjord wrote: »

Bad aim = Bent baton

Thats definitely worth a "That what she said" statement....

This whole deal of "arming" security gaurds etc with batons , is bulls**t, unless a law is passed to allow history checked security gaurds to be trained in less lethal techniques with an asp etc.....it will remain illegal to possess an asp in public, never mind use it.

Odysseus · 29-03-2010 07:43PM

Irish_polizei wrote: »

it will remain illegal to possess an asp in public, never mind use it.

Could you clarify that for me please, the in public bit. My understanding was it is a prohibited weapon. A member of the public cannot possess one at all,
like it is ok for me to have various weapons in my house, that I would use in the course of other activities, hunting, martial arts but carrying them around is a different story of course.

You post would seem to me that it is ok to possess one say in my own home. I don't and I don't want one, but that's the understanding I get from your post, which doesn't seem correct to me. Am I correct in saying the above?

Irish_polizei · 29-03-2010 07:52PM

Odysseus wrote: »

Could you clarify that for me please, the in public bit. My understanding was it is a prohibited weapon. A member of the public cannot possess one at all,
like it is ok for me to have various weapons in my house, that I would use in the course of other activities, hunting, martial arts but carrying them around is a different story of course.

You post would seem to me that it is ok to possess one say in my own home. I don't and I don't want one, but that's the understanding I get from your post, which doesn't seem correct to me. Am I correct in saying the above?

Sure if you have it in your own home, who is going to know about it? As long as you dont take a dander down the main street and clabber a few people accross the jaw, you'll be A-ok! Yep your 100% correct in your post.!

bravestar · 30-03-2010 03:37AM

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Let me clarify for you.

SDU , ie the unit in Harcourt Square

I know the rank structure in AGS , thanks for the feedback though

Thats nice, i have plenty of collegues in there. Again, they receive the same training as that of any uniform Garda Re: Batons/ Spray... they receive no more training than that of a regular detective or a uniform Garda out on the beat on his first day.

kravmaga · 30-03-2010 10:25PM

but your don't work in S.D.U. so you may not be fully aware of their training regime.

you will find SDU receive training on Firearms which is more than a uniformed Garda on the beat issued with pepper spray and extendable baton.

If there is anything else you would like me to clarify for you, dont hesitate to contact me.....cheers

Hooch · 30-03-2010 10:33PM

bravestar wrote: »

Thats nice, i have plenty of collegues in there. Again, they receive the same training as that of any uniform Garda Re: Batons/ Spray... they receive no more training than that of a regular detective or a uniform Garda out on the beat on his first day.

blueeyedboy wrote: »

but your don't work in S.D.U. so you may not be fully aware of their training regime.

you will find SDU receive training on Firearms which is more than a uniformed Garda on the beat issued with pepper spray and extendable baton.

If there is anything else you would like me to clarify for you, dont hesitate to contact me.....cheers

?????

He didnt mention firearms....he said RE: spray and batons......of which the magical SDU recieve the same training as every other member of AGS.

Security guards/batons?

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