Security guards/batons?

starviewadams

Just after remembering this now..

I was walkin home on paddys night past a busy 24 hour shop quite near O'Connell bridge and I saw two security guards(male & female)arguing with a group of drunks/drug addicts.

When things got a bit more heated the security guards both took out 2 of those extendible batons that the english police use from their pockets and stood their ground,the junkie group quickly lost interest after that!

Just wondering if they are allowed to carry them as long as they dont use them or is this iilegal?

Personally,if I was a security guard working in that shop I'd want more then a baton to keep some of the ''customers'' that frequent the shop at bay!!

Tango Alpha 51

Totally 100% illegal for them to carry them. The only people authorised to carry & use batons in the course of their duty in this country are AGS, IPS, MP & some would argue Airport Police. No one else is allowed to carry them.

scudzilla

That's why any switched on security guy carries a very large Maglite

kravmaga

starviewadams wrote: »

Just after remembering this now..

I was walkin home on paddys night past a busy 24 hour shop quite near O'Connell bridge and I saw two security guards(male & female)arguing with a group of drunks/drug addicts.

When things got a bit more heated the security guards both took out 2 of those extendible batons that the english police use from their pockets and stood their ground,the junkie group quickly lost interest after that!

Just wondering if they are allowed to carry them as long as they dont use them or is this iilegal?

Personally,if I was a security guard working in that shop I'd want more then a baton to keep some of the ''customers'' that frequent the shop at bay!!

I would say it was the drunks/drug addicts arguing with the security personnel instead of vice versa.....:)

AGS , Airport Police, US Embassy security, INS and CBP Officers at Dublin and Shannon Airports,Customs and Excise are the only personnel to my knowledge authorised to use the ASP extendable baton.

It is illegal for civilian security personnel as possession Offensive weapon in a public place is an offence.

You should make a complaint to the PSA who regulate the security industry.

www.psa.gov.ie

supermedic

Add the Harbour Police !!!??? to that list. In Dun Laoghaire, they have been openly carrying ASP Batons and the one piece handcuffs for the last several years... God only know why !!

maglite

scudzilla wrote: »

That's why any switched on security guy carries a very large Maglite

I do my bit...



On a serious note, assume the security fellas used it, How would you as a garda react. Would you see it as an assault or defense?

CO19

buzzman wrote: »

IPS

blueeyedboy wrote: »

INS and CBT Dublin

What do the above abbreviations stand for ? thanks

Bogger77

CO19 wrote: »

What do the above abbreviations stand for ? thanks

IPS: Irish Prison Service
CBT and INS: US Customs and Border and Immigration and Naturalization services (i think OP meant CBP)*


*The guys based in Shannon and Dublin Airports

CB19Kevo

Do any of you think security staff should have more equipment though,
If trained and insured i think spray should be allowed.

Any thoughts?

jd83

CB19Kevo wrote: »

Do any of you think security staff should have more equipment though,
If trained and insured i think spray should be allowed.

Any thoughts?

God no. Most security guards and bouncers are fine. There doing a tough job and are dealing with tough situations. But you see a good few people in the sector who are heavy handed and hot headed. Giving them weapons even spray would be asking for trouble.

source

CB19Kevo wrote: »

Do any of you think security staff should have more equipment though,
If trained and insured i think spray should be allowed.

Any thoughts?

Under Irish law, pepper spray is classed as a firearm, so no i would definately not like to see security guards carrying this. Or any weapons for that matter. Insurance won't stop them from being charged with assault if they get over zealous in while apprehending a shoplifter.

Also, (this is nothing against any bouncers that may be reading this, this is not a personal attack on you or your profession, it is however me highlighting my concerns based on personal encounters with bouncers both on a professional and personal basis), you cannot justify arming shop security staff and not door staff on night clubs who deal with a lot more hassle than shop security. We all know how aggressive bouncers can be at the best of times. I can guarantee that if bouncers were allowed to carry spray or impact weapons that they would be used for the purpose of teaching someone a lesson instead of personal protection.

I for one believe that only members of state run bodies should be issued with this type of equipment, not a lot of people know that there are a lot of rules and regulations surrounding a member of AGS producing and using their spray/asp, and lots of reports that have to be filled in after, i won't go into too much detail but the spray is not a fire and forget weapon. If used there are questions asked and if need be investigations are conducted into the use of the spray/asp. Not something that would be able to be done if every tom dick and harry involved in security is armed with these weapons.

sdanseo

I'm of the opposite opinion. I reckon that a PSA licence holder who does an apropriate amount of training should be licenced to carry either spray or an ASP. I work in a place with a lot of PSA guys and from talking to them a lot have suffered injuries like broken noses, slash wounds, bottling etc. It can be a dangerous profession and they should be allowed to defend themselves once trained how to do so correctly.

The law defines the offence as carrying an extendable baton without reasonable excuse. A small line in there to state that being a properly trained individual in the performance of a security duty is a reasonable excuse would make these guys' jobs a tad safer.

Even in what the OP said - all they did was flick the batons open and the troublemakers scattered. That's all that needs to be don in I'd guess 95% of cases. They're downright intimidating. Yeah you'll probably get a few injuries and there may be a few reckless ataff - who will end up sacked if they misuse - but staff should be able to defend themselves (and joe public too). At the end of the day, if you don't lose the rag with a bouncer you're safe as houses.

starviewadams

starviewadams wrote: »

Just after remembering this now..

I was walkin home on paddys night past a busy 24 hour shop quite near O'Connell bridge and I saw two security guards(male & female)arguing with a group of drunks/drug addicts.

What made you think they were security guards and not members of the garda? And which 24 hour shop was this. sure the local gards would like to know.

time lord

On a light note I met a dog warden with an extendable batten a helmet, a stab vest, a blanket and a pole. Now no drugies should mess with him on the way back to his van:o

Zambia

From what I can remember no security Guard can carry an Extended Baton in Ireland or the UK. Having done a good few years retail security and Doormen work. I will concur some of the people I worked with should not even have been given a toothpick.

That said it should not be the case. The case described above is actually not a bad example of how they should be used. If the Guys where saying they where going to cause some harm the the Security guards. Why should 2 security Guards have to take on 2+ Males without some form of personnal protection. In the case simply displaying the baton caused a de-escalation and resolved the situation.

Dublin more than any city has a clear case for the issuing of personnal protection weapons to security guards however not without a clear chain of responsibilty and proper licencing in place. What we have at present is security staff using whatever is to hand in a haphazard defence of themselves.

Like the maglite example in my time in retail security I lost count of the amount of times somebody got hit with the butt end of a radio. I would rather see security guards attend a 2-3 day course in the use of a Baton rather than hail away at a offender with a d cell maglite hitting head shoulders etc. They should then be issued a licence to carry it only while on paid duty and on condition of yearly refresher training.

The AGS members here will know where to hit someone with an ASP. Due to the fact someone trained them in its use.

Along with the Baton they also should be given the option of Handcuffs. in my experience its a pain in the hole sitting on an offender for 35-40 minutes awaiting a garda response (some nights they were busy).While he/screams trashes and screams what he will do to you when he gets up.

However I would only advocate the use of them if the offender is a threat to security , himself or the public.

seanybiker

I got a telescopic baton a few months ago. It was bent so obviously wouldnt extend. I brought it upto one of my friends houses to show him it. One of his mates was up there. He does the bank van driving and said that he had one of them the last few months. This chap does the cash escorts with the guards. He didnt get his from work. He said he got it in a shop down here in waterford for a few bob and brings it with him in work. According to him the guards never said anything to him. Saying that he seems to be a bit of a liar.

Poly

seanybiker wrote: »

This chap does the cash escorts with the guards. He didnt get his from work. He said he got it in a shop down here in waterford for a few bob and brings it with him in work.

So, if he gets held up he's going to produce his stick? Pretty stupid IMO, Is it really worth getting himself shot for a bank?

Leo Demidov

seanybiker wrote: »

I got a telescopic baton a few months ago. It was bent so obviously wouldnt extend.

Are things gone that bad in waterford that you need to carry a weapon. (How did you bend it by the way)

Nemanja91

Sure how else are they going to protect themselves, When i was over in bulgaria i got one meself.

Don't the Army do the cash escorts in Waterford at all.

DubMedic

Nemanja91 wrote: »

Sure how else are they going to protect themselves, When i was over in bulgaria i got one meself.

Don't the Army do the cash escorts in Waterford at all.

Don't think Army would have much use for a baton, they have more potent weapons.

.

ex_infantry man

yes the army do have batons for use in public order platoons and likewise with naval service for armed boarding teams and they use cable ties as cuffs

Locust

DubMedic wrote: »

Don't think Army would have much use for a baton, they have more potent weapons.

.

If they are operating in a public place i think they should have some form of less lethal medium such as a baton, rather than just lethal force.

Nemanja91

I meant that shouldn't they be doing the cash escort not the guards

ex_infantry man

Nemanja91 wrote: »

I meant that shouldn't they be doing the cash escort(cit) not the guards

the army when doin cash escorts(cit) are there acting as aid to civil power(atcp) and are in fact not protecting the money but are in fact there just to back the gardai up in case a crack team of armed robbers jump the convoy, the cash is well insured by the banks

Nemanja91

ex_infantry man wrote: »

the army when doin cash escorts(cit) are there acting as aid to civil power(atcp) and are in fact not protecting the money but are in fact there just to back the gardai up in case a crack team of armed robbers jump the convoy, the cash is well insured by the banks

Thanks, going by your name anyway you know a lot about the army.

ex_infantry man

ye was in sp coy 3rd batt for a short while.and ex member of naval service reserve.

Nemanja91

ex_infantry man wrote: »

ye was in sp coy 3rd batt for a short while.and ex member of naval service reserve.

Thats cool, I always wanted to join the Army but I'm colorblind.

slavetothegrind

Zambia232 wrote: »

Along with the Baton they also should be given the option of Handcuffs. in my experience its a pain in the hole sitting on an offender for 35-40 minutes awaiting a garda response (some nights they were busy).While he/screams trashes and screams what he will do to you when he gets up.

However I would only advocate the use of them if the offender is a threat to security , himself or the public.

Why can't plasticuffs be used?
Surely it would be safer all round if the individual was restrained prior to official arrest?
Batons i am not so sure, too many agro heads in the game would end themselves in prison.

In clubs i think it should be manditory for the head doorman to wear a headset ( video and sound) recorded, and displayed for customers to see on the way in along with a sign letting them know it can and will be used against them in the event of an incident.
Would be safer all round and the judge would get a difficult to argue with view of the muppetry in action.

jd83

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Why can't plasticuffs be used?
Surely it would be safer all round if the individual was restrained prior to official arrest?
Batons i am not so sure, too many agro heads in the game would end themselves in prison.

In clubs i think it should be manditory for the head doorman to wear a headset ( video and sound) recorded, and displayed for customers to see on the way in along with a sign letting them know it can and will be used against them in the event of an incident.
Would be safer all round and the judge would get a difficult to argue with view of the muppetry in action.

Video camera headset is a great idea. Seen it on some tv show once where the bouncer had a head set. No cuffs or battons or anything like that. Police and people working in other goverment agencies go through a long drawn out recruitment process. Then through a lot of training. Plenty of opportunities to single out the nutjobs and agro heads. People working in security dont get this. They get a background check and a couple of days training. If there were handing out batons and even if they got training there would be stories every week about Security staff using excessive force.

HFB

jd83 wrote: »

Video camera headset is a great idea. Seen it on some tv show once where the bouncer had a head set. No cuffs or battons or anything like that. Police and people working in other goverment agencies go through a long drawn out recruitment process. Then through a lot of training. Plenty of opportunities to single out the nutjobs and agro heads. People working in security dont get this. They get a background check and a couple of days training. If there were handing out batons and even if they got training there would be stories every week about Security staff using excessive force.

+ 1
Couldn’t agree more
And the course for a PSA door supervisor or retail security licence is only a day long and doesn’t really include much on the use of force, degrees of force, reasonable force, excessive force. Terrible idea to ever give them batons, cuffs or CS

kravmaga

CB19Kevo wrote: »

Do any of you think security staff should have more equipment though,
If trained and insured i think spray should be allowed.

Any thoughts?

Yes ,I think with the proper training I dont see an issue with stab vests ,speed-cuffs or an ASP or US PR 24 night stick being issued.

Let's be honest people in this modern society are more aggressive and no matter what Conflict Reolution techniques you use sometimes it is necessary to defend yourself from violence from a DRUNK or DRUG ADDICT.


You can do all the courses in the world such as Unarmed Defence tactics and Non -Violent CrisiS Intervention from CPI, Closed Protection etc.

I was in Poland last year and noticed all the Security personnel at train stations were issued with speed cuffs and PR24 baton plus they were wearing stab vests. Some security personnel in banks in Europe are armed.

In Uk Security personnel in all NHS hospitals are issued with stab vests and cuffs.

The Security sector in Ireland has come on in leaps and bounds in the past 10years with the PSA and proper licencing plus criminal record background checks.

Its fair to assume that the cowboys have been taken out of the sector and