Security guards/batons?

starviewadams

Just after remembering this now..

I was walkin home on paddys night past a busy 24 hour shop quite near O'Connell bridge and I saw two security guards(male & female)arguing with a group of drunks/drug addicts.

When things got a bit more heated the security guards both took out 2 of those extendible batons that the english police use from their pockets and stood their ground,the junkie group quickly lost interest after that!

Just wondering if they are allowed to carry them as long as they dont use them or is this iilegal?

Personally,if I was a security guard working in that shop I'd want more then a baton to keep some of the ''customers'' that frequent the shop at bay!!

Tango Alpha 51

Totally 100% illegal for them to carry them. The only people authorised to carry & use batons in the course of their duty in this country are AGS, IPS, MP & some would argue Airport Police. No one else is allowed to carry them.

scudzilla

That's why any switched on security guy carries a very large Maglite

kravmaga

starviewadams wrote: »

Just after remembering this now..

I was walkin home on paddys night past a busy 24 hour shop quite near O'Connell bridge and I saw two security guards(male & female)arguing with a group of drunks/drug addicts.

When things got a bit more heated the security guards both took out 2 of those extendible batons that the english police use from their pockets and stood their ground,the junkie group quickly lost interest after that!

Just wondering if they are allowed to carry them as long as they dont use them or is this iilegal?

Personally,if I was a security guard working in that shop I'd want more then a baton to keep some of the ''customers'' that frequent the shop at bay!!

I would say it was the drunks/drug addicts arguing with the security personnel instead of vice versa.....:)

AGS , Airport Police, US Embassy security, INS and CBP Officers at Dublin and Shannon Airports,Customs and Excise are the only personnel to my knowledge authorised to use the ASP extendable baton.

It is illegal for civilian security personnel as possession Offensive weapon in a public place is an offence.

You should make a complaint to the PSA who regulate the security industry.

www.psa.gov.ie

supermedic

Add the Harbour Police !!!??? to that list. In Dun Laoghaire, they have been openly carrying ASP Batons and the one piece handcuffs for the last several years... God only know why !!

maglite

scudzilla wrote: »

That's why any switched on security guy carries a very large Maglite

I do my bit...



On a serious note, assume the security fellas used it, How would you as a garda react. Would you see it as an assault or defense?

CO19

buzzman wrote: »

IPS

blueeyedboy wrote: »

INS and CBT Dublin

What do the above abbreviations stand for ? thanks

Bogger77

CO19 wrote: »

What do the above abbreviations stand for ? thanks

IPS: Irish Prison Service
CBT and INS: US Customs and Border and Immigration and Naturalization services (i think OP meant CBP)*


*The guys based in Shannon and Dublin Airports

CB19Kevo

Do any of you think security staff should have more equipment though,
If trained and insured i think spray should be allowed.

Any thoughts?

jd83

CB19Kevo wrote: »

Do any of you think security staff should have more equipment though,
If trained and insured i think spray should be allowed.

Any thoughts?

God no. Most security guards and bouncers are fine. There doing a tough job and are dealing with tough situations. But you see a good few people in the sector who are heavy handed and hot headed. Giving them weapons even spray would be asking for trouble.

source

CB19Kevo wrote: »

Do any of you think security staff should have more equipment though,
If trained and insured i think spray should be allowed.

Any thoughts?

Under Irish law, pepper spray is classed as a firearm, so no i would definately not like to see security guards carrying this. Or any weapons for that matter. Insurance won't stop them from being charged with assault if they get over zealous in while apprehending a shoplifter.

Also, (this is nothing against any bouncers that may be reading this, this is not a personal attack on you or your profession, it is however me highlighting my concerns based on personal encounters with bouncers both on a professional and personal basis), you cannot justify arming shop security staff and not door staff on night clubs who deal with a lot more hassle than shop security. We all know how aggressive bouncers can be at the best of times. I can guarantee that if bouncers were allowed to carry spray or impact weapons that they would be used for the purpose of teaching someone a lesson instead of personal protection.

I for one believe that only members of state run bodies should be issued with this type of equipment, not a lot of people know that there are a lot of rules and regulations surrounding a member of AGS producing and using their spray/asp, and lots of reports that have to be filled in after, i won't go into too much detail but the spray is not a fire and forget weapon. If used there are questions asked and if need be investigations are conducted into the use of the spray/asp. Not something that would be able to be done if every tom dick and harry involved in security is armed with these weapons.

sdanseo

I'm of the opposite opinion. I reckon that a PSA licence holder who does an apropriate amount of training should be licenced to carry either spray or an ASP. I work in a place with a lot of PSA guys and from talking to them a lot have suffered injuries like broken noses, slash wounds, bottling etc. It can be a dangerous profession and they should be allowed to defend themselves once trained how to do so correctly.

The law defines the offence as carrying an extendable baton without reasonable excuse. A small line in there to state that being a properly trained individual in the performance of a security duty is a reasonable excuse would make these guys' jobs a tad safer.

Even in what the OP said - all they did was flick the batons open and the troublemakers scattered. That's all that needs to be don in I'd guess 95% of cases. They're downright intimidating. Yeah you'll probably get a few injuries and there may be a few reckless ataff - who will end up sacked if they misuse - but staff should be able to defend themselves (and joe public too). At the end of the day, if you don't lose the rag with a bouncer you're safe as houses.

starviewadams

starviewadams wrote: »

Just after remembering this now..

I was walkin home on paddys night past a busy 24 hour shop quite near O'Connell bridge and I saw two security guards(male & female)arguing with a group of drunks/drug addicts.

What made you think they were security guards and not members of the garda? And which 24 hour shop was this. sure the local gards would like to know.

time lord

On a light note I met a dog warden with an extendable batten a helmet, a stab vest, a blanket and a pole. Now no drugies should mess with him on the way back to his van:o

Zambia

From what I can remember no security Guard can carry an Extended Baton in Ireland or the UK. Having done a good few years retail security and Doormen work. I will concur some of the people I worked with should not even have been given a toothpick.

That said it should not be the case. The case described above is actually not a bad example of how they should be used. If the Guys where saying they where going to cause some harm the the Security guards. Why should 2 security Guards have to take on 2+ Males without some form of personnal protection. In the case simply displaying the baton caused a de-escalation and resolved the situation.

Dublin more than any city has a clear case for the issuing of personnal protection weapons to security guards however not without a clear chain of responsibilty and proper licencing in place. What we have at present is security staff using whatever is to hand in a haphazard defence of themselves.

Like the maglite example in my time in retail security I lost count of the amount of times somebody got hit with the butt end of a radio. I would rather see security guards attend a 2-3 day course in the use of a Baton rather than hail away at a offender with a d cell maglite hitting head shoulders etc. They should then be issued a licence to carry it only while on paid duty and on condition of yearly refresher training.

The AGS members here will know where to hit someone with an ASP. Due to the fact someone trained them in its use.

Along with the Baton they also should be given the option of Handcuffs. in my experience its a pain in the hole sitting on an offender for 35-40 minutes awaiting a garda response (some nights they were busy).While he/screams trashes and screams what he will do to you when he gets up.

However I would only advocate the use of them if the offender is a threat to security , himself or the public.

seanybiker

I got a telescopic baton a few months ago. It was bent so obviously wouldnt extend. I brought it upto one of my friends houses to show him it. One of his mates was up there. He does the bank van driving and said that he had one of them the last few months. This chap does the cash escorts with the guards. He didnt get his from work. He said he got it in a shop down here in waterford for a few bob and brings it with him in work. According to him the guards never said anything to him. Saying that he seems to be a bit of a liar.

Poly

seanybiker wrote: »

This chap does the cash escorts with the guards. He didnt get his from work. He said he got it in a shop down here in waterford for a few bob and brings it with him in work.

So, if he gets held up he's going to produce his stick? Pretty stupid IMO, Is it really worth getting himself shot for a bank?

Leo Demidov

seanybiker wrote: »

I got a telescopic baton a few months ago. It was bent so obviously wouldnt extend.

Are things gone that bad in waterford that you need to carry a weapon. (How did you bend it by the way)

Nemanja91

Sure how else are they going to protect themselves, When i was over in bulgaria i got one meself.

Don't the Army do the cash escorts in Waterford at all.

DubMedic

Nemanja91 wrote: »

Sure how else are they going to protect themselves, When i was over in bulgaria i got one meself.

Don't the Army do the cash escorts in Waterford at all.

Don't think Army would have much use for a baton, they have more potent weapons.

.

ex_infantry man

yes the army do have batons for use in public order platoons and likewise with naval service for armed boarding teams and they use cable ties as cuffs

Locust

DubMedic wrote: »

Don't think Army would have much use for a baton, they have more potent weapons.

.

If they are operating in a public place i think they should have some form of less lethal medium such as a baton, rather than just lethal force.

Nemanja91

I meant that shouldn't they be doing the cash escort not the guards

ex_infantry man

Nemanja91 wrote: »

I meant that shouldn't they be doing the cash escort(cit) not the guards

the army when doin cash escorts(cit) are there acting as aid to civil power(atcp) and are in fact not protecting the money but are in fact there just to back the gardai up in case a crack team of armed robbers jump the convoy, the cash is well insured by the banks

Nemanja91

ex_infantry man wrote: »

the army when doin cash escorts(cit) are there acting as aid to civil power(atcp) and are in fact not protecting the money but are in fact there just to back the gardai up in case a crack team of armed robbers jump the convoy, the cash is well insured by the banks

Thanks, going by your name anyway you know a lot about the army.

ex_infantry man

ye was in sp coy 3rd batt for a short while.and ex member of naval service reserve.

Nemanja91

ex_infantry man wrote: »

ye was in sp coy 3rd batt for a short while.and ex member of naval service reserve.

Thats cool, I always wanted to join the Army but I'm colorblind.

slavetothegrind

Zambia232 wrote: »

Along with the Baton they also should be given the option of Handcuffs. in my experience its a pain in the hole sitting on an offender for 35-40 minutes awaiting a garda response (some nights they were busy).While he/screams trashes and screams what he will do to you when he gets up.

However I would only advocate the use of them if the offender is a threat to security , himself or the public.

Why can't plasticuffs be used?
Surely it would be safer all round if the individual was restrained prior to official arrest?
Batons i am not so sure, too many agro heads in the game would end themselves in prison.

In clubs i think it should be manditory for the head doorman to wear a headset ( video and sound) recorded, and displayed for customers to see on the way in along with a sign letting them know it can and will be used against them in the event of an incident.
Would be safer all round and the judge would get a difficult to argue with view of the muppetry in action.

jd83

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Why can't plasticuffs be used?
Surely it would be safer all round if the individual was restrained prior to official arrest?
Batons i am not so sure, too many agro heads in the game would end themselves in prison.

In clubs i think it should be manditory for the head doorman to wear a headset ( video and sound) recorded, and displayed for customers to see on the way in along with a sign letting them know it can and will be used against them in the event of an incident.
Would be safer all round and the judge would get a difficult to argue with view of the muppetry in action.

Video camera headset is a great idea. Seen it on some tv show once where the bouncer had a head set. No cuffs or battons or anything like that. Police and people working in other goverment agencies go through a long drawn out recruitment process. Then through a lot of training. Plenty of opportunities to single out the nutjobs and agro heads. People working in security dont get this. They get a background check and a couple of days training. If there were handing out batons and even if they got training there would be stories every week about Security staff using excessive force.

HFB

jd83 wrote: »

Video camera headset is a great idea. Seen it on some tv show once where the bouncer had a head set. No cuffs or battons or anything like that. Police and people working in other goverment agencies go through a long drawn out recruitment process. Then through a lot of training. Plenty of opportunities to single out the nutjobs and agro heads. People working in security dont get this. They get a background check and a couple of days training. If there were handing out batons and even if they got training there would be stories every week about Security staff using excessive force.

+ 1
Couldn’t agree more
And the course for a PSA door supervisor or retail security licence is only a day long and doesn’t really include much on the use of force, degrees of force, reasonable force, excessive force. Terrible idea to ever give them batons, cuffs or CS

kravmaga

CB19Kevo wrote: »

Do any of you think security staff should have more equipment though,
If trained and insured i think spray should be allowed.

Any thoughts?

Yes ,I think with the proper training I dont see an issue with stab vests ,speed-cuffs or an ASP or US PR 24 night stick being issued.

Let's be honest people in this modern society are more aggressive and no matter what Conflict Reolution techniques you use sometimes it is necessary to defend yourself from violence from a DRUNK or DRUG ADDICT.


You can do all the courses in the world such as Unarmed Defence tactics and Non -Violent CrisiS Intervention from CPI, Closed Protection etc.

I was in Poland last year and noticed all the Security personnel at train stations were issued with speed cuffs and PR24 baton plus they were wearing stab vests. Some security personnel in banks in Europe are armed.

In Uk Security personnel in all NHS hospitals are issued with stab vests and cuffs.

The Security sector in Ireland has come on in leaps and bounds in the past 10years with the PSA and proper licencing plus criminal record background checks.

Its fair to assume that the cowboys have been taken out of the sector and

kravmaga

jd83 wrote: »

Video camera headset is a great idea. Seen it on some tv show once where the bouncer had a head set. No cuffs or battons or anything like that. Police and people working in other goverment agencies go through a long drawn out recruitment process. Then through a lot of training. Plenty of opportunities to single out the nutjobs and agro heads. People working in security dont get this. They get a background check and a couple of days training. If there were handing out batons and even if they got training there would be stories every week about Security staff using excessive force.

What about Garda using excessive force here after all the training ?

Case in example May day riots in Dame Street in 2003, Garda so called Public Order unit lost the plot on that day.

Look at the Met in London, much more professional force.

ex_infantry man

Nemanja91 wrote: »

Thats cool, I always wanted to join the Army but I'm colorblind.

ah thats a bummer!!

I reckon (wooden) nightsticks should be legal. I have a nightstick that's made of wood and covered in masking tape (I was a Big Boss Man fan!) and it'd hurt you something serious if you got a good belt of it, but it wouldn't do as much damage as anything made of steel/metal, etc.

jd83

blueeyedboy wrote: »

What about Garda using excessive force here after all the training ?

Case in example May day riots in Dame Street in 2003, Garda so called Public Order unit lost the plot on that day.

Look at the Met in London, much more professional force.

Yes your right there has been incidents in the past where gardai have used excess force. Im never said they didnt. If security guards had the same equipment there would be stories like this every week.

AnalFistyCuffs

jd83 wrote: »

If security guards had the same equipment there would be stories like this every week.

You are dead right JD. It is because of a road rage incident involving an off-duty security guard in Dublin, seriously assaulting another driver with his baton (retrieved from boot of car) that the court judge started the ball rolling in the banning of 'defensive/offensive' weapons being carried by security personnel. It only takes one muppet to ruin it

starviewadams

foreign wrote: »

What made you think they were security guards and not members of the garda? And which 24 hour shop was this. sure the local gards would like to know.

I just guessed they weren't members of the Gardai because they were both Polish/eastern european.

Dont want to get anybody in trouble so dont think it would be wise to give out the name/location of the shop.

DubMedic

starviewadams wrote: »

I just guessed they weren't members of the Gardai because they were both Polish/eastern european.

Dont want to get anybody in trouble so dont think it would be wise to give out the name/location of the shop.

Yeah, all members of An Garda Siochana are born and bred in the shticks. :rolleyes::rolleyes:.

.

kravmaga

foinse wrote: »

Under Irish law, pepper spray is classed as a firearm, so no i would definately not like to see security guards carrying this. Or any weapons for that matter.

I for one believe that only members of state run bodies should be issued with this type of equipment, not a lot of people know that there are a lot of rules and regulations surrounding a member of AGS producing and using their spray/asp, and lots of reports that have to be filled in after, i won't go into too much detail but the spray is not a fire and forget weapon. If used there are questions asked and if need be investigations are conducted into the use of the spray/asp. Not something that would be able to be done if every tom dick and harry involved in security is armed with these weapons.

Its all about common sense and knowledge of the criminal law.
Use of force and excessive use of force is a grey area in this country......it has to proportionate to the level of force being used by a potential assailant.

AGS have to fill out a use of force incident report if they use their Asp or Pepper spray, Statement and obviously would have to justify their actions if a complaint were made by a memeber of the public to the Garda Ombudmans office.

You cannot generalise by saying every Tom, Dick or Harry involved in the Security industry............see my earlier post regarding PSA Licencing , Close Protection courses, Non Crisis Intervention, Conflict resoultion, Unarmed Defence tatctics, CPI etc

AGS are way behind in training techniques compared to UK and European forces.....I know this as I am ex UK Police.

kravmaga

jd83 wrote: »

Yes your right there has been incidents in the past where gardai have used excess force. Im never said they didnt. If security guards had the same equipment there would be stories like this every week.

Going to have to disagree with you on this one....

With the correct training, ability. common sense, knowledge of law , why would there be stories with properly trained security personnel?

blueeyedboy

blueeyedboy wrote: »

AGS are way behind in training techniques compared to UK and European forces.....I know this as I am ex UK Police.

Are you a member of AGS? If not than you cannot speak for the level of training.

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Going to have to disagree with you on this one....

With the correct training, ability. common sense, knowledge of law , why would there be stories with properly trained security personnel?

You wouldn't be a security guard now would you?

Zambia

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Why can't plasticuffs be used?

Plasticuffs are just cuffs they are governed by the same laws.

Zambia

HFB wrote: »

+ 1
Couldn’t agree more
And the course for a PSA door supervisor or retail security licence is only a day long and doesn’t really include much on the use of force, degrees of force, reasonable force, excessive force. Terrible idea to ever give them batons, cuffs or CS

This is more an argument for extending the length and depth of the course. In reality a Security Guard could inflict terrible damage on someone without any weapons. The use of force model should be ingrained into anyone dealing with conflict.

kravmaga

foreign wrote: »

Are you a member of AGS? If not than you cannot speak for the level of training.



You wouldn't be a security guard now would you?

To answer your 2 points......

1. No I am not...of course I can comment on AGS training........I work along side members of ASG from Garda to Detective level and have had many conversations regarding training in Templemore.

I worked in a UK Police force for many years and worked in CID so I think I am qualified to comment about Police training in UK and Ireland thank you very much.


2. No, I am not a Security Guard. But its fair to say I have made a lot of money in the industry since my return to Dublin from UK.

Your view is coming across as narrow minded on this open debate........

You wouldn't be a member of AGS now would you?;)

If you want to PM me on my background and experience I will answer any question offline

bravestar

blueeyedboy wrote: »

...from Garda to Detective level...

Detective is not a rank and they have the same training, re:impact weapons/spray, as a Garda in uniform.

Detective Garda is the same rank as Garda, just a different job discription.

Locust

Yeah detecitve is just a step sideways not upwards. Yes, i would agree though, I've seen both UK & Ireland, and the UK is leaps and bounds ahead in training (5-10 years plus). I think its definitely something that we need more of - the more training the better. Training is NEVER over. It should be regular, People can always be learning more.

However on the security guard side of things, I don't think private security - retail/bouncers should carry batons. Self defence or otherwise... the way things are now a days legally it just gets way too messy.

seanybiker

wexfjord wrote: »

Are things gone that bad in waterford that you need to carry a weapon. (How did you bend it by the way)

the previous owner was arresting a member of the travelling community one night and went to break the window open but hit the door frame.
I got rid of the baton anyways. Sure if I got caught with that, well I dont know what would happen but I just couldnt be arsed with it.

Zambia

Locust wrote: »

However on the security guard side of things, I don't think private security - retail/bouncers should carry batons. Self defence or otherwise... the way things are now a days legally it just gets way too messy.

Way to Messy. To be fair that's not really a reason.

So do you think a Security guard is entitled to defend him or herself at all?

Leo Demidov

The main message conveyed in PSA training is that your most effective weapon is your head, not entirely sure that a literal approach is the intention but best use of scarce resources seems to have worked in the past. Radios, maglites etc., not weapons by definition but certainly very effective.

The current training and licencing regime is a good start but does little to reassure the public that they are dealing with a professional security person. Like most debates about weaponising particular groups, the longer it can be deferred the better. (Issuing the weapons, not the debate) As soon as security personnel are armed to a particular extent, the scumbags will have to go one further.

Most of us have seen the effect that the actions of some security personnel can have on a situation. I've seen doormen in the past launch unprovoked attacks on individuals to settle a score from a previous week, some of these people are still in the industry and until they're gone, the issuing of weapons must wait.

If, however, someone is willing to partake of one of the longer term college based courses accredited to cert/diploma level by FETAC, undertake training relevant to the correct use of a particular piece of kit and be subjected to the same level of scrutiny as an officer of the law, then I would see no problem with them being equipped, appropriate to the level of risk they face.

It would be interesting to hear the opinions of experienced individuals from the security industry.

Re; The OP's question/statement, is it more pertinent to consider arming static/retail guards as opposed to door security personnel. Static guards often work alone or in smaller numbers, similar to the scenario described, whereas door guards have a certain level of back up and historically bring a certain level of weight to an argument.

Leo Demidov

seanybiker wrote: »

the previous owner was arresting a member of the travelling community one night and went to break the window open but hit the door frame.

Bad aim = Bent baton

Thats one piece of information i'll be sure to retain.:eek:

Zambia

wexfjord wrote: »

The main message conveyed in PSA training is that your most effective weapon is your head, not entirely sure that a literal approach is the intention but best use of scarce resources seems to have worked in the past. Radios, maglites etc., not weapons by definition but certainly very effective.

I would concur that the ability to talk and converse are by far the most effective resources anyone has. Sadly the time and effort to train those skills is very difficult to class room.

I would agree in part here, by the very fact that Maglites, radios , large key bunchs etc are not weapons there is no training in the correct use of them. A maglite strike to the head could be fatal.

wexfjord wrote: »

The current training and licencing regime is a good start but does little to reassure the public that they are dealing with a professional security person. Like most debates about weaponising particular groups, the longer it can be deferred the better. (Issuing the weapons, not the debate) As soon as security personnel are armed to a particular extent, the scumbags will have to go one further.

I agree on the starting piont and that took ages to get to. It is a drastic failure in the goverment since the early 90's that the issue was never raised. There are still gapping holes in the system from what I have heard here. Training guards on the resources security companies provide is hard, to get the Professional security person you describe above is a huge task in any country.

I don't see any solid evidence that issuing of baton's to guards would result in scumbag's arming up. I would be happy to hear of cases in other countries where this has happened. Where guards have been issued with a deterent and the cases of crimes related to step up weapons have increased.

wexfjord wrote: »

Most of us have seen the effect that the actions of some security personnel can have on a situation. I've seen doormen in the past launch unprovoked attacks on individuals to settle a score from a previous week, some of these people are still in the industry and until they're gone, the issuing of weapons must wait.

Sadly here is the truth of it there are some characters in the industry that do believe they are some law unto themselves. However we are all to blame in this regard. When the public encounter such individuals they should take steps to report the incident, colleagues should do likewise and the AGS or PSA should have an investigative wing to monitor the industry.

I don't believe that there is a case for waiting till these guys phase out, every day they remain in place they train other staff in the same methods. It's really about the carrot and stick here. The state has to regulate the industry harder but in doing some offer greater training, freedom's and resources back to the industry.

wexfjord wrote: »

If, however, someone is willing to partake of one of the longer term college based courses accredited to cert/diploma level by FETAC, undertake training relevant to the correct use of a particular piece of kit and be subjected to the same level of scrutiny as an officer of the law, then I would see no problem with them being equipped, appropriate to the level of risk they face.

100% agree here. In all my time in the industry in Ireland I searched and asked for training courses there where none. Reason being employers did not want to spend the money. If you attended a course yourself you could not claim any of the cost of it. I eventually left the industry in 2000 resigning myself to the fact it would never be regulated and as such remain a terrible as opposed to not great career path. That was after 5-6 years.

wexfjord wrote: »

Re; The OP's question/statement, is it more pertinent to consider arming static/retail guards as opposed to door security personnel. Static guards often work alone or in smaller numbers, similar to the scenario described, whereas door guards have a certain level of back up and historically bring a certain level of weight to an argument.

Ideally there are several classes of guard

Static - Factory's etc
Retail - Shop Guards
Cash in transit - Armoured car crews
Door Staff - Bars/Nightclubs etc.

Door staff in my opinion as well actually have the least requirement for a Baton or handcuffs. They tend to have more back up and deal more with punters than criminal's. Plus as your average joe soap if you are going to be on the wrong end of a security assault its going to be from a doorman.

Excellent post btw.