Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

A question for atheists...

Options
  • 26-03-2010 11:34pm
    #1
    trapsagenius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭


    Genuinely not trying to be smart,I was just wondering what do atheists think of occurrences like NDEs, Lourdes, Fatima, the "miracle of the sun" and so on, given that many theists take them as belief of divine intervention.

    I personally don't really know what to think about them-that's why I'd be interested to hear atheist feedback.

    P.S-I am starting a similar thread in the christian forum.


«134

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    legspin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭legspin


    Primarily mass hysteria with large dollops of delusion and ignorance throw in for good measure.


  • Options
    #3
    Blackhorse Slim
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 1,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Blackhorse Slim


    I find NDEs fascinating, but they most likely have a neurological explanation which is not yet fully understood.

    The other "miracles" you listed are just evidence of the gullibility of those who "want to believe".

    :cool:


  • Options
    #4
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,690 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    The last time I stared at the sun I saw multi coloured spots.

    The only miracle is the fact that I didn't go blind.


  • Options
    #5
    trapsagenius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭trapsagenius


    Fair enough, but what about all the eye witnesses for the "miracle of the sun", who claimed they saw that whole thing with the sun?Can they all have been deluded?

    Not saying I believe it happened, just think its interesting.

    BTW, when i saw "miracle", its not because I believe it was a miracle but because that's just what people call it.


  • Options
    #6
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,690 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    The sun is an extremely powerful source of light. If you stare at it for any length of time your vision is going to be distorted and you will see odd things.

    Couple this with ignorance, stupidity and a huge urge to want to see something supernatural and you are left with these 'miracles'.

    It's Interesting to see how a group of gullable people react when together staring at the sun..but that's about it!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    The short answer is: I think the human brain is an amazing piece of kit...but it does some pretty strange things from time to time.

    I would imagine the range of things my brain would do if I was near death, baring in mind I can fall out bed mid-dream because I think I'm flying or hold a conversation when I am fast asleep, wouldn't preclude tunnels of light or imagining myself hovering over said situation.

    In all these kinds of things I think the most plausible answer is the one that requires the least imagination. Apparitions appearing in economically deprived areas which suddenly benefit from a booming trade in vials of magic water and accommodation and eateries only too willing to take the money from the desperate and afflicted. Altogether, there seems to be plenty of non-superstitious reasons and motives to explain such things, without having to consider the supernatural.

    I mean, the very fact hundreds of these people required medical attention would suggest between the damage to their retinas and their desperation to see something, I would have been more surprised if people had said they saw nothing.


  • Options
    #8
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    trapsagenius wrote: »
    Fair enough, but what about all the eye witnesses for the "miracle of the sun", who claimed they saw that whole thing with the sun?Can they all have been deluded?

    Which is more reasonable to believe:

    1. A star, with a mass of about 1989,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg, over 149.6 million kilometers away from us, the source of all natural light and most heat on the surface of our planet, the very object that keeps us from hurtling off into the depths of interstellar space, is miraculously moved about in a violent fashion for a short period of time - but there is absolutely no gravitational effect felt in the solar system or on Earth, and this incident of unimaginably gigantic proportions is only witnessed by a relatively small group of people located in one place.

    or

    2. The sun did not move outside of it's normal rotation, and said group of people were were deluded by the ocular effects of unwisely staring at one of the brightest sources of light available to us, and the effects of mass hysteria, both of which are well documented.


  • Options
    #9
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    trapsagenius wrote: »
    Fair enough, but what about all the eye witnesses for the "miracle of the sun", who claimed they saw that whole thing with the sun?Can they all have been deluded?
    Those who saw "something" saw what they hoped/wanted/wished to see, or at least convinced themselves they did with the help of staring at the sun.


  • Options
    #10
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    trapsagenius wrote: »
    Genuinely not trying to be smart,I was just wondering what do atheists think of occurrences like NDEs, Lourdes, Fatima, the "miracle of the sun" and so on, given that many theists take them as belief of divine intervention.

    I personally don't really know what to think about them-that's why I'd be interested to hear atheist feedback.

    P.S-I am starting a similar thread in the christian forum.


    All religions have their own various miracles,they can't all be true. So the most likely cause is neurological/psychological reaction to self delusion and mass hysteria.


  • Options
    #11
    Antbert
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    Show me a miracle, then I'll think about it and get back to you with an answer.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    What about people who were cured of various ailments at different holy places, did they just "will" themselves better? Did mass hysteria will them to get better? Google a few of them!

    Science will never explain the supernatural. The very word supernatural says it all, "super" meaning greater than, or beyond, and "natural" referring to natural science.


  • Options
    #13
    Xluna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭Xluna


    me_right_one wrote: »
    What about people who were cured of various ailments at different holy places, did they just "will" themselves better? Did mass hysteria will them to get better? Google a few of them!

    Science will never explain the supernatural. The very word supernatural says it all, "super" meaning greater than, or beyond, and "natural" referring to natural science.

    Science has a pretty good track record of explaining away superstitious/supernatural beliefs.


  • Options
    #14
    pts
    Registered Users Posts: 576 ✭✭✭pts


    me_right_one wrote: »
    What about people who were cured of various ailments at different holy places, did they just "will" themselves better? Did mass hysteria will them to get better? Google a few of them!

    Science will never explain the supernatural. The very word supernatural says it all, "super" meaning greater than, or beyond, and "natural" referring to natural science.

    What about all the people who don't get better when they pray to their sky daddy? Why doesn't god heal amputees?


  • Options
    #15
    Dont be at yourself
    Registered Users Posts: 10,576 ✭✭✭✭Dont be at yourself


    trapsagenius wrote: »
    Genuinely not trying to be smart,I was just wondering what do atheists think of occurrences like NDEs, Lourdes, Fatima, the "miracle of the sun" and so on, given that many theists take them as belief of divine intervention.

    I personally don't really know what to think about them-that's why I'd be interested to hear atheist feedback.

    P.S-I am starting a similar thread in the christian forum.

    What do you think of occurrences like NDEs experienced by those of other religious persuasions and what do you think of the contents of this page:

    http://www.miraclesofislam.com/

    Hokum. Just like the ones reported by Christians.


  • Options
    #16
    Antbert
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    me_right_one wrote: »
    What about people who were cured of various ailments at different holy places, did they just "will" themselves better? Did mass hysteria will them to get better? Google a few of them!
    As pts said, what about the people that didn't get healed? As for the ones that do, let's divide them up into two categories: The people you know first hand who were healed, and all the rest. I'll disregard all the rest. So, for the people you personally know I suggest you read Ben Goldacre's Bad Science for an excellent indepth discussion of the placebo effect. You might then revise your next statement:
    Science will never explain the supernatural. The very word supernatural says it all, "super" meaning greater than, or beyond, and "natural" referring to natural science.
    As Xluna said (damn everyone getting in before me), science usually explains "the supernatural".


  • Options
    #17
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    trapsagenius wrote: »
    Genuinely not trying to be smart,I was just wondering what do atheists think of occurrences like NDEs, Lourdes, Fatima, the "miracle of the sun" and so on, given that many theists take them as belief of divine intervention.

    I personally don't really know what to think about them-that's why I'd be interested to hear atheist feedback.

    P.S-I am starting a similar thread in the christian forum.

    Short answer: Wishfull thinking

    Long answer: N/A


  • Options
    #18
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    Antbert wrote: »
    As pts said, what about the people that didn't get healed? As for the ones that do, let's divide them up into two categories: The people you know first hand who were healed, and all the rest. I'll disregard all the rest. So, for the people you personally know I suggest you read Ben Goldacre's Bad Science for an excellent indepth discussion of the placebo effect. You might then revise your next statement


    To be honest Antbert, your comparason could be summed up as follows:
    Did man land on the moon? There's footage, recordings, etc. all of which could be faked. Then there's astronauts who say they actually walked on the moon. Let's divide them up into two categories: The people you know first hand who walked on it, and all the rest. I'll disregard all the rest. So, for the people you personally............ See?


    Ok. Let me see now, who do I know first hand that got healed..... Hmmmm.... Oh I know one, ME actually! I had permanent scarring on my face from a skin disease when I was a child, no doctor or no surgery could get rid of it. My mother brought me to a well known healer, no wobbly sun stuff here. I didnt know at the time who he was or what he was supposed to be doing, so there's the placebo effect discounted. The very next day, THE NEXT DAY, my face was back to normal. I dont know how it works, or why some people dont get healed. All I know is I'm still scar-free, and the disease never came back. Judge for yourselves.


  • Options
    #19
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,893 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    me_right_one wrote: »
    To be honest Antbert, your comparason could be summed up as follows:
    Did man land on the moon? There's footage, recordings, etc. all of which could be faked. Then there's astronauts who say they actually walked on the moon. Let's divide them up into two categories: The people you know first hand who walked on it, and all the rest. I'll disregard all the rest. So, for the people you personally............ See?


    Ok. Let me see now, who do I know first hand that got healed..... Hmmmm.... Oh I know one, ME actually! I had permanent scarring on my face from a skin disease when I was a child, no doctor or no surgery could get rid of it. My mother brought me to a well known healer, no wobbly sun stuff here. I didnt know at the time who he was or what he was supposed to be doing, so there's the placebo effect discounted. The very next day, THE NEXT DAY, my face was back to normal. I dont know how it works, or why some people dont get healed. All I know is I'm still scar-free, and the disease never came back. Judge for yourselves.

    pics or gtfo


  • Options
    #20
    Antbert
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    me_right_one wrote: »
    To be honest Antbert, your comparason could be summed up as follows:
    Did man land on the moon? There's footage, recordings, etc. all of which could be faked. Then there's astronauts who say they actually walked on the moon. Let's divide them up into two categories: The people you know first hand who walked on it, and all the rest. I'll disregard all the rest. So, for the people you personally............ See?
    Yup you could definitely say that. I can't see anything that bizarre from my (albeit limited scientific-wise) point of view about a moon landing though. It's not miraculous. The moon is there. I see it at night. Looks pretty sturdy.
    ...Healer
    I didnt know at the time who he was or what he was supposed to be doing, so there's the placebo effect discounted.
    That doesn't discount the placebo effect.
    The very next day, THE NEXT DAY, my face was back to normal. I dont know how it works, or why some people dont get healed. All I know is I'm still scar-free, and the disease never came back. Judge for yourselves.
    Lots of explanations. The disease could actually have coincidentally disappeared on its own, it could've been in the process of being healed and the placebo effect could have helped. You could have taken extra care (or your mother could have) in treating it yourself after seeing the healer. You could be exaggerating to us. You could be exaggerating to yourself. You could be lying outright. The healer could have healed you.

    I can't possibly judged based on a very short internet account of your experience, but it certainly wouldn't convert me.


  • Options
    #21
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    Antbert wrote: »
    Yup you could definitely say that. I can't see anything that bizarre from my (albeit limited scientific-wise) point of view about a moon landing though. It's not miraculous. The moon is there. I see it at night. Looks pretty sturdy.

    The moon is indeed there. So do you know anybody first-hand who walked on it?

    Antbert wrote: »
    That doesn't discount the placebo effect.

    Yes it does. The whole point of the placebo effect is that you think x event will happen, then it happens, because you psychologically "tricked" yourself. Sympathetic pregnancies are an example. I didnt even know what was going on, so therefore I didnt trick myself.
    Antbert wrote: »
    Lots of explanations. The disease could actually have coincidentally disappeared on its own, it could've been in the process of being healed and the placebo effect could have helped. You could have taken extra care (or your mother could have) in treating it yourself after seeing the healer. You could be exaggerating. You could be lying. The healer could have healed you.

    All true. There could be a God, he could have done it. 100 years ago people believed man would never fly, just as firmly as you believe there is no miracles. Now could you imagine a world without aeroplanes?
    Antbert wrote: »
    I can't possibly judged based on a very short internet account of your experience, but it certainly wouldn't convert me.

    Not trying to. Just adding my 2 cents to the debate. Its YOUR soul;)


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    Canis Lupus wrote: »
    pics or gtfo

    http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/images/dress-up/masks/horror/overhead-burns.jpg

    to

    http://www.tvfanatic.com/images/gallery/handsome-patrick.jpg


  • Options
    #23
    Antbert
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    me_right_one wrote: »
    The moon is indeed there. So do you know anybody first-hand who walked on it?
    I said your logic does apply, just with a difference. I can't see anything that inexplicable about walking on the moon. I DO see it as inexplicable that people have the power to "channel mystical energy" or whatever to heal somebody.
    Yes it does. The whole point of the placebo effect is that you think x event will happen, then it happens, because you psychologically "tricked" yourself. Sympathetic pregnancies are an example. I didnt even know what was going on, so therefore I didnt trick myself.
    The placebo effect goes a lot deeper than that. What did the healer actually do to you?
    All true. There could be a God, he could have done it. 100 years ago people believed man would never fly, just as firmly as you believe there is no miracles. Now could you imagine a world without aeroplanes?
    I don't see your point.

    Not trying to. Just adding my 2 cents to the debate. Its YOUR soul;)
    Fair enough.


  • Options
    #24
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    Antbert wrote: »
    I said your logic does apply, just with a difference. I can't see anything that inexplicable about walking on the moon. I DO see it as inexplicable that people have the power to "channel mystical energy" or whatever to heal somebody.

    You dont see anything inexplicable about flying humans to another planet in a time when you'd be lucky to get your morris minor started? During the cold war, full of propaganda? You just believe it unconditionally? So do I actually. I also believe in the supernatural because I have personal, tangible evidence of such.

    Antbert wrote: »
    The placebo effect goes a lot deeper than that. What did the healer actually do to you?

    Dont remember now. It may go deeper, but thats the backbone of how it works. Without that, no placebo effect.

    Antbert wrote: »
    I don't see your point.

    I'm making the exact same point as you, ie. its a possibility.


  • Options
    #25
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    me_right_one wrote: »



    I'm making the exact same point as you, ie. its a possibility.

    If I could just jump in at this point......So you accept that there are other reasonable possibilities and the supernatural could have had nothing to do with it whatsoever?


  • Options
    #26
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    People often come onto this forum and give us a fantastical story and say "well can you explain it?". No of course we can't explain it, we weren't there. All we have is your version of events, we have no idea what you're leaving out, what you may have missed, what else may have been going on that neither you nor the healer knew about. All we have here is a story that is told in such a way as to confirm a claim of the supernatural. We don't even know if any of this happened. Had we been there with laboratory equipment studying the events our answer to the question might well be very different but with the information you're giving us there's no way we can explain what happened. One question I'd have is why this guy is not a millionaire, what with the James Randi foundation offering a million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate a supernatural ability under laboratory conditions (a prize that has yet to be won btw)


  • Options
    #27
    Antbert
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    me_right_one wrote: »
    You dont see anything inexplicable about flying humans to another planet in a time when you'd be lucky to get your morris minor started? During the cold war, full of propaganda? You just believe it unconditionally? So do I actually. I also believe in the supernatural because I have personal, tangible evidence of such.
    I actually don't see it as that inexplicable...
    Dont remember now. It may go deeper, but thats the backbone of how it works. Without that, no placebo effect.
    OK, so you can't even remember the experience. That makes your story even less reliable. I would imagine the healer did some fancy 'healing' things. And you say you didn't know what was going on. What age were you? Did this not scare the **** out of you? Your mother puts you in a room with some weird bloke who starts chanting at you and you have absolutely no idea why?
    I'm making the exact same point as you, ie. its a possibility.
    See Strobe's point.


  • Options
    #28
    Antbert
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Antbert


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    People often come onto this forum and give us and fantastical story and say "well can you explain it?". No of course we can't explain it, we weren't there. All we have is your version of events, we have no idea what you're leaving out, what you may have missed, what else may have been going on that neither you nor the healer knew about. All we have here is a story that is told in such a way as to confirm a claim of the supernatural. We don't even know if any of this happened. Had we been there with laboratory equipment studying the events our answer to the question might well be very different but with the information you're giving us there's no way we can explain what happened. One question I'd have is why this guy is not a millionaire, what with the James Randi foundation offering a million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate a supernatural ability under laboratory conditions (a prize that has yet to be won btw)
    I have wiled away many hours watching James Randi clips on YouTube. An excellent way to spend a day (far superior than going for a walk or something).


  • Options
    #29
    johno2
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭johno2


    The "miracle" healing stuff at Lourdes can be explained by simple statistics. There have been 60-70 miracles reported out of the 10's of millions of people who have visited there. AFAIK the chances of being cured in Lourdes is about 1/1,000,000. It's actually worse odds than the chances of someone just getting better if they stayed at home. For example, the rate of spontaneous cancer remission is about 1/30,000.

    As for the apparitions and NDEs, I've had hallucinations too. Hallucinations happen, I believe in them.

    And the Sun thing that happened in Knock... I'd like to know who is the original person who decided that the Sun was wobbling because God was making it happen. And how that person could be so sure that it was God making it happen. And where that person got the information from. And why it didn't wobble until you stared at it for a certain amount of time, even though the person standing next to you started staring 5 minutes before you and could already see the wobble. It's a perfect example of how mass hallucination happens, and it's very easy to poke holes in the whole story.

    johno


  • Options
    #30
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    One question I'd have is why this guy is not a millionaire, what with the James Randi foundation offering a million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate a supernatural ability under laboratory conditions (a prize that has yet to be won btw)

    The Log Of Applicants is full of epic fails.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    mehfesto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭mehfesto


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    People often come onto this forum and give us a fantastical story and say "well can you explain it?". No of course we can't explain it, we weren't there. All we have is your version of events, we have no idea what you're leaving out, what you may have missed, what else may have been going on that neither you nor the healer knew about. All we have here is a story that is told in such a way as to confirm a claim of the supernatural. We don't even know if any of this happened. Had we been there with laboratory equipment studying the events our answer to the question might well be very different but with the information you're giving us there's no way we can explain what happened. One question I'd have is why this guy is not a millionaire, what with the James Randi foundation offering a million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate a supernatural ability under laboratory conditions (a prize that has yet to be won btw)

    If this doesn't answer your question, nothing will.
    Just logged in to say that!


Advertisement