Do a monitor require a TV licence if not connected?

Chef-1st · 22-03-2010 06:59PM #1

Hi there,

I'm sure this has been bashed about on many threads before. Apologies in advance. I've been trying rid myself of this thorn in my side, specifically in the form of the dreaded annual TV Licence.

I don't watch TV anymore (eg: SKY).
So I purchased a screen without a tuner (Hitachi 42" from Richer Sounds) last year, just for the PS3. I was under the impression that, if this is classed as a monitor, I would not require a licence.

Just got a reply letter from them saying this screen still fits within the definition of a Television Set, thus requiring a licence.

Can anyone clarify, or have their own story to tell regarding monitors/projectors (no tuner devices) and TV Licences??

cheers!

Minstrel27 · 22-03-2010 07:01PM

If you do not have a tuner in your home, tell them to go to hell.

Chef-1st · 22-03-2010 07:17PM

LOL. That was my thoughts exactly.
It would seem that because I did own a licence, they're adoment on pursuing this quest to get me to renew. He even checked out the specs of the LCD himself online and highlighted the fact that it could recieve and "external video source".
But sure this would be the case of any visual device (monitor/projector/etc)
And my assumption is that they don't require a licence.

So have they moved the goal posts I wonder, and are clamping down on people who were using this loophole??

Sam Russell · 22-03-2010 08:49PM

Chef-1st wrote: »

So have they moved the goal posts I wonder, and are clamping down on people who were using this loophole??

Yes they have moved the goal posts in the last broadcasting act. However my reading of the regulations is that you should not need a licence if you do not have a tuner, nor do you have broadband and do not have a computer with software for receiving TV from the internet. In other words, you cannot get TV.

I think the PS3 would not count.

However, they may keep at you till you pay. Stand firm.

Chef-1st · 22-03-2010 10:06PM

Yeah, none of my devices have tuners. (LCD Screen with no tuner & a monitor for the PC). My PC does not have a tuner card either.
I do have broadband though. Well, really midband **** (mobile BB), all I can get.

The old SKY satellite dish is still on the roof though. They aren't aware of this yet. It's not connected to anything (eg digibox, skybox, freeview, etc..) They may insist on this as their only get-out clause, if so, I will get up and remove it myself.

I understand it's about the TV device itself, not whether you watch TV or not, but I honestly thought this would be a way of getting around paying, since I don't watch TV and none have tuners.
I've emailed them a query in to this, see what they say and let you know. I'd love to get to the bottom of this once and for all.

:mad:

Chef-1st · 23-03-2010 03:54PM

got a reply email from the TV licence people.

"Television set" means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus

So, if the monitors are not capable, and never where capable of receiving a signal, no licence is required…

So at least I have something to use against this licence guy who says I have to get a licence for this Hitachi LCD Panel I have.

Sam Russell · 23-03-2010 04:04PM

Chef-1st wrote: »

got a reply email from the TV licence people.

"Television set" means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus

So, if the monitors are not capable, and never where capable of receiving a signal, no licence is required…

So at least I have something to use against this licence guy who says I have to get a licence for this Hitachi LCD Panel I have.

Yes, but I would take down the dish.

robtri · 23-03-2010 04:07PM

Chef-1st wrote: »

got a reply email from the TV licence people.

"Television set" means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus

So, if the monitors are not capable, and never where capable of receiving a signal, no licence is required…

So at least I have something to use against this licence guy who says I have to get a licence for this Hitachi LCD Panel I have.

actually they have you over a barrell, if the TV has scart or HDMI connections...
becuase the LCD unit can then be used as a TV with a SKY box, free sat box....
Technically as the wording is set out above all monitors are covered by this law, as you can buy exteranl analogue or digital TV tuners for all monitor with a vga connection...

Sam Russell · 23-03-2010 07:03PM

robtri wrote: »

actually they have you over a barrell, if the TV has scart or HDMI connections...
becuase the LCD unit can then be used as a TV with a SKY box, free sat box....
Technically as the wording is set out above all monitors are covered by this law, as you can buy exteranl analogue or digital TV tuners for all monitor with a vga connection...

I would not draw that conclusion. If there is no broadband, and no aerial, then there is no ability to receive the TV picture. You must be able to receive the signal, and exhibit it. So get rid of the dish.

robtri · 24-03-2010 10:23AM

Sam Russell wrote: »

I would not draw that conclusion. If there is no broadband, and no aerial, then there is no ability to receive the TV picture. You must be able to receive the signal, and exhibit it. So get rid of the dish.

the question isnot whether the op is or not look at TV..

The device in question is CAPABLE of recieving and exhibiting a TV signal.
therfore it is subject to the licence fee.

whether you recieve a signal or not, is not in question here...

Sam Russell · 24-03-2010 10:58AM

robtri wrote: »

the question isnot whether the op is or not look at TV..

The device in question is CAPABLE of recieving and exhibiting a TV signal.
therfore it is subject to the licence fee.

whether you recieve a signal or not, is not in question here...

The monitor is NOT capable of receiving a TV broadcast. It is capable of displaying the broadcast, but the definition calls for both conditions. If the OP does not have broadband, and does not have a tuner capable of receiving a broadcast then the monitor on its own cannot be decribed as any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception.

The question can only be decided by a court, but I would be confident the OP would be found not to be liable to get a licence under the conditions described.

Hagar · 24-03-2010 11:01AM

They can't get you for the monitor but if you left up the Sky dish they can get you for that.

robtri · 24-03-2010 12:45PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

The monitor is NOT capable of receiving a TV broadcast. It is capable of displaying the broadcast, but the definition calls for both conditions. If the OP does not have broadband, and does not have a tuner capable of receiving a broadcast then the monitor on its own cannot be decribed as any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception.

The question can only be decided by a court, but I would be confident the OP would be found not to be liable to get a licence under the conditions described.

and dont forget the part after that highlighted sentance
(whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith)

and the OP has BB...

Sam Russell · 24-03-2010 12:57PM

robtri wrote: »

and dont forget the part after that highlighted sentance
(whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction therewith)

and the OP has BB...

Under the new definition, having the monitor, together with BB would make it dificult to prove an inability to receive TV, particularly if the dish is still up.

Just not having a cable to connect the monitor to the computer on BB would not be accepted as inability to display, I would think. If he has BB, it is difficult to see him succeding. He would have to prove he did not have the right software - very difficult.

Satdog · 24-03-2010 02:46PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Under the new definition, having the monitor, together with BB would make it dificult to prove an inability to receive TV, particularly if the dish is still up.

Just not having a cable to connect the monitor to the computer on BB would not be accepted as inability to display, I would think. If he has BB, it is difficult to see him succeding. He would have to prove he did not have the right software - very difficult.

I think having the dish is irrelevant if the OP has no tuner card in the PC, or he doesn't have a STB. If however a tuner card or STB is acquired then the jigsaw is complete. BB is another issue, if you can receive RTE Player is a licence then required?

Chef-1st · 24-03-2010 06:06PM

Robtri is correct. The fact is, that I have a device capable of visually showing a TV broadcast (eg: LCD Sreen), whether or not it is used in conjunction with an external source (eg: Skybox).
This what the new new Broadcasting Act states anyway.
"whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it"

In that respect, any screen, whether it be a monitor, projector, laptop, or LCD panel, should require a licence. Yet I have 2 emails from the TV Licence Department, stating these devices do not require a licence.

So it is definitely a grey area, that even the enforcers are unsure of.
If it is a case, that I require a licence, regardless of whether I have BB or dish, then in theory, they should be enforcing this to every household in possession of any visual device.

Satdog · 25-03-2010 12:14PM

This might be a get out clause. Its from the Q&A section for a TV Licence from the Dept. Communications website, updated 19/3/10. I take it to mean that the computer includes the Screen.
Q. Do I require a television licence for a computer which can access television-like services (e.g. the RTÉ Player or streaming services) over the Internet?
A. No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting networks (i.e cable, satillite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) e.g. using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a television licence..

Sam Russell · 25-03-2010 12:54PM

Another example of a poorly drafted law. There is room to argue that you need to have a tuner, as the old definition required. This new definition is poorly drafted, as it does not say that. Typical of the shower in Kildare Street, who are only concerned at how much they get, and how much RTE 'Stars' get.

So get rid of the dish and you are OK.

Fuzzy Clam · 25-03-2010 09:45PM

No need to get rid of the dish.
Dish + screen alone cannot display television channels.
Get rid of the Sky box.

BB + PC + screen does not require a licence.

Sam Russell · 26-03-2010 12:22AM

That may well be right, but having an unused dish makes it more difficult to prove that you cannot receive TV. The tuner is in the LNB.

Chef-1st · 26-03-2010 01:30AM

I admit, it looks bad having an (unused) dish on the roof, but if he wants to pay to take it down, they can work away. As long as it is not in use (no skybox), it shouldn't be an issue. Neither is the BB an issue.

The bottom line here is that any visual device with input connections capable of connecting an external tuner/broadcasting device require a licence. So, scart, hdmi, etc... anything other that VGA/DVI.
His point was that because my LCD Panel has a HDMI connection, iSkyHD could be connected to it. Sure most current PC monitors come with a HDMI connection, so in theory, all them monitors require a licence too!
Been able to connect only SkyHD to my Panel is not enough of an excuse for me to pay €160 per year.

It's a ridiculous system. And yes you are right, it's typical dodgy amature wording from the Irish Gov. I've wrote off another letter, stating my displeasement. We'll see what he says back.

Also, I got an unrelated threathening letter about inspectors coming around my area to check for fraud. Stating fines and threats etc...
I say let them work away, come around, I've nothing to hide. I'm not trying to scam the system, I just don't want to pay for something I no longer use or require, and feel I should not have to pay for.

Fuzzy Clam · 26-03-2010 12:08PM

Chef-1st wrote: »

The bottom line here is that any visual device with input connections capable of connecting an external tuner/broadcasting device require a licence. So, scart, hdmi, etc... anything other that VGA/DVI.

Not correct.

If this was so, then any vga monitor would also require a licence as it can be connected to a pc with a tv card.

A. No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting networks (i.e cable, satillite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) e.g. using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a television licence.

Sam Russell · 26-03-2010 01:22PM

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Not correct.

If this was so, then any vga monitor would also require a licence as it can be connected to a pc with a tv card.

A. No. So long as the computer is unable to display television channels distributed by conventional television broadcasting networks (i.e cable, satillite, IPTV, analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) e.g. using a television tuner card or similar device, then there is no requirement to hold a television licence.

Exactly, and having a dish bolted to the wall is another piece of the jigsaw. If it were me, I would take it down.

Antenna · 26-03-2010 01:39PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

That may well be right, but having an unused dish makes it more difficult to prove that you cannot receive TV. The tuner is in the LNB.

The LNB amplifies the incoming signal and downconverts the satellite frequencies (around 11GHz) down to lower frequencies which will not have huge loss in the average run of co-ax cable. Also selects polarization.
It does not demodulate anything, so can't be referred to as a tuner?.

Chef-1st · 27-03-2010 08:03AM

Yeah, I don't think the dish is a big deal. It's a part of the house now!

I presume it's the Skybox that they'd have a beef with, and I don't have one.

I don't think they care about PC TV cards and the likes.
They only make a deal about it, if you've cable, or satellite on the house, sending signal to your house, to any visual apperatus, incl TV cards.
Any visual device that has coaxial, scart or HDMI connection seem to require a licence. This is the beef I think he has with me anyway.
They don't seem to care about monitors though, even those with HDMI.

I don't know, it's all mad. There are so many theories out there, and people talking about their own opinions, but no one can give me factual experience, or actual proof that the system can be bet. Am I the only pioneer???

I'll let you know what is said in the next threatening letter...
I'm not giving up on this anyway.

Rulmeq · 27-03-2010 08:35AM

Chef-1st wrote: »

Yeah, I don't think the dish is a big deal. It's a part of the house now!

Actually the dish is enough.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/media/tv_licences#rules

It's €13 per month, set up a DD, and forget about it.

Mike 1972 · 27-03-2010 02:22PM

Rulmeq wrote: »

Actually the dish is enough.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/media/tv_licences#rules

This site is pure nonsense

Even if the television or other equipment is broken and currently unable to receive a signal, it is regarded as capable of being repaired so it can receive a signal and you must hold a licence for it.

Deactivated firearms dont require a firearms certificate, Vehicles which have been declared "Off the road" dont require Vehicle Excise Duty, why should TV sets be any different ?

A satellite dish can be used for things other than recieving broadcast TV (Radio and Broadband services for instance) If a TV licence is required for an aerial/dish then it is also required for a coat hanger or a three pin plug for crysakes

You do not require a television licence to watch television on your computer or mobile phone. However, you do require a licence if the computer is used together with any other apparatus to receive a signal.

Er does this mean that computers with integral tuner cards are exempt from TV licencing ? I seriously doubt it.

Rulmeq wrote: »

It's €13 per month, set up a DD, and forget about it.

If you are in the habit of paying for services you dont use when it is not legally required perhaps you would be good enough to PM me your bank account details.

Now can we have a link to the relevent act of the Oireachtas and/or statutory instrument that states one needs a licence for a HDMI or SCART enabled monitor assuming of course such legislation actually exists.

Chef-1st · 27-03-2010 06:16PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Now can we have a link to the relevent act of the Oireachtas and/or statutory instrument that states one needs a licence for a HDMI or SCART enabled monitor assuming of course such legislation actually exists.

This is what I want to get to the bottom of too. I want to know what does and what doesn't require a licence. If I get a reply saying monitors and projectors don't need a licence, then I'll be taking it all the way with my "LCD Panel", as technically, it's just a monitor.
If he comes back saying any visual apperatus with an input connection able to receive broadcast via an external device, then they'd better have proof on paper, and also that they're enforcing this, because I'd say that puts most of the country in need of a licence! There will be a lot of unhappy people out there. I'll be taking this to court or my local TD if this is the case.

jhegarty · 27-03-2010 06:25PM

Rulmeq wrote: »

Actually the dish is enough.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/media/tv_licences#rules

It's €13 per month, set up a DD, and forget about it.

Read that again.

It says:

"Every household, business or institution in Ireland with a television or equipment capable of receiving a television signal (using an aerial, satellite dish, cable or other means) must have a television licence"

It's the television or equipment capable of receiving a television sign that requite the license, not the aerial , dish or cable.

If an dish + lnb require a license then so does a coat hanger.

Sam Russell · 27-03-2010 07:51PM

From the 2009 Broacasting Act, it has the following definition:

“television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving
and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general
reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on
the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or
assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;

From this, the LCD panel, the OP should describe the LCD panel as a computer monitor. The dish would also give rise to the interpretation as being able to be iused as something able to be for the use of anything else in conjunction with it to make it a TV.

Very bad wording, but that is what the act says. Having the equipment, working or not, requires a licence.

Mike 1972 · 27-03-2010 08:19PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

“television set” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving
and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general
reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on
the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or
assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;
............... Having the equipment, working or not, requires a licence.

You are pretty spot on apart from the "working or not" bit given that the word "capable" is in there.

On the other hand the definition is ludicrously wide ranging. Is there a seperate definition for "electronic apparatus". Would a single electronic component (say an IN4148 diode) qualify or does it have to be assembled into some kind of device ?

Is a mains lead or plug an "electronic apparatus" ?

Is an aerial an "electronic apparatus". How elaborate does it have to be to qualify (piece of wire ????) Given that Band 3 is used for both DAB radio and Analouge TV is an aerial covering band 3 included ? What about a length of coaxial cable ?

And what of computer components (CPU, RAM etc) these could (if coupled with a Tuner card) form a TV set so are they covered even if they are not ?

What about something like a Windows or Linux CD ("software") or Hard drive with an O/S installed these could be used with TV tuner card software even if there is no software of this sort actually present ?

Do a monitor require a TV licence if not connected?

Comments