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Discrimination against Men

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Yeah I figured, but you said we we're making the same assumptions in the reply as well which confused me somewhat. :o
    Poor wording on my part. I meant that you are both relying heavily on speculative assumptions; yours that women have better memories than men and hers that the LC was designed as part of a concerted patriarchal conspiracy to keep women out of university and in uncomfortable shoes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Poor wording on my part. I meant that you are both relying heavily on speculative assumptions; yours that women have better memories than men and hers that the LC was designed as part of a concerted patriarchal conspiracy to keep women out of university and in uncomfortable shoes.

    Yup yup, I'm following you :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭miec


    I'll open up by saying that I am grateful that feminism enabled me to go to college and have more choices now. I feel that women nowadays have equal rights overall whereas historically we were very much the underdog, we can thankfully wave those days goodbye. Sadly though I do think that the pendulum has swung too far and that feminism of today is hurting men and women.

    I feel men do suffer some aspects of discrimination and I feel that a lot of men do not help themselves, although this thread is a positive step in the right direction.

    In the area of childcare and parenting men are largely discriminated, the courts tend to favour the mother over the father, men as parents have less rights and this is discrimination. A stay at home Dad is looked down upon by some women, and a figure of ridicule by some men, attitudes around this need to change, espicially now there is the recession where more men are unemployed and their wives are the main breadwinners. Parenting manual, courts, etc should recognise that either the mother or father can be the main carer. I'd like to see changes in this area.

    The other area men are badly discriminated is in the criminal courts, espicially in relation to sex crimes, for instance a woman teacher who seduces an underage boy tends not to be sent to prison or receive as stiff a sentence. Women who sexually abuse on the whole tend to have shorter prison sentences.

    The way men are portrayed in adverts is sickening and sexist, I hate male bashing jokes or anything else that is derogatory towards men, so if I see this going on in an advert I won't buy their product.

    I think men need to help themselves out more, they need to take responsibility for their health, parental issues, education and so forth and swing into action like feminists did previously. If women get a bit scared it is because we are afraid that men might try to put us back in the dark ages but that is a fear we have to overcome. I would like to see true equality between the sexes, that we are human first, and male and female second. I hate all this division stuff of men are this and women are that. I think patriarchy and matriarchy are dangerous ideologies because they confine both sexes into fixed and rigid roles. I'd like to see more fluidity and this can only be realised if we change policies, laws, literature, adverts and culture to show that men and women can either be full time parents, or full time workers, or whatever.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,359 ✭✭✭source


    miec wrote: »
    The other area men are badly discriminated is in the criminal courts, espicially in relation to sex crimes, for instance a woman teacher who seduces an underage boy tends not to be sent to prison or receive as stiff a sentence. Women who sexually abuse on the whole tend to have shorter prison sentences.

    It's actually a little bit worse than this, in the eyes of the law, women cannot commit rape,

    according to Section 2 Criminal Law (Rape) Act, 1981
    2.—(1) A man commits rape if—
    [GA]

    ( a ) he has unlawful sexual intercourse with a woman who at the time of the intercourse does not consent to it, and
    [GA]

    ( b ) at that time he knows that she does not consent to the intercourse or he is reckless as to whether she does or does not consent to it,
    [GA]

    and references to rape in this Act and any other enactment shall be construed accordingly.
    [GA]

    (2) It is hereby declared that if at a trial for a rape offence the jury has to consider whether a man believed that a woman was consenting to sexual intercourse, the presence or absence of reasonable grounds for such a belief is a matter to which the jury is to have regard, in conjunction with any other relevant matters, in considering whether he so believed.

    The offence of rape was updated in 1990 under Section 4 Criminal Law (Rape) (Amendment) Act, 1990
    4.—(1) In this Act "rape under section 4" means a sexual assault that includes—
    [GA]

    ( a ) penetration (however slight) of the anus or mouth by the penis, or
    [GA]

    ( b ) penetration (however slight) of the vagina by any object held or manipulated by another person.
    [GA]

    (2) A person guilty of rape under section 4 shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life.
    [GA]

    (3) Rape under section 4 shall be a felony.


    Both offences commited by men against women, anything else is considered a sexual assault, so if a woman forces a man to have sex it's sexual assault, if a man forces a woman to have sex it's rape which carries much heavier penalties. Also a in a consensual sexual encounter between an underage male and female, the male is guilty of an offence and the female is considered a victim.

    These are definitely things that need addressing.

    On the whole women learning things off by heart better than men, this is something i have heard before, read a study by an American college into this, looking for the article but having a bit of difficulty locating it. will link it when i find it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭iptba


    foinse wrote: »
    IOn the whole women learning things off by heart better than men, this is something i have heard before, read a study by an American college into this, looking for the article but having a bit of difficulty locating it. will link it when i find it
    (Not up-to-date on the thread) Yes, I have read this before. I think the phrase to look for when searching is “by rote” (learning by rote/similar) – females were said to be better at it. I think it may have also said they are more willing to do it/got less bored by it also but could be wrong with that bit.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    foinse wrote: »
    It's actually a little bit worse than this, in the eyes of the law, women cannot commit rape,

    according to Section 2 Criminal Law (Rape) Act, 1981


    The offence of rape was updated in 1990 under Section 4 Criminal Law (Rape) (Amendment) Act, 1990



    Both offences commited by men against women, anything else is considered a sexual assault, so if a woman forces a man to have sex it's sexual assault, if a man forces a woman to have sex it's rape which carries much heavier penalties. Also a in a consensual sexual encounter between an underage male and female, the male is guilty of an offence and the female is considered a victim.

    These are definitely things that need addressing.

    On the whole women learning things off by heart better than men, this is something i have heard before, read a study by an American college into this, looking for the article but having a bit of difficulty locating it. will link it when i find it

    GIven that section 4 b states that
    ( b ) penetration (however slight) of the vagina by any object held or manipulated by another person.
    [GA]

    would that not supercede the earlier act and potentially include the offence of woman on woman rape as rape? Sorry, am being very pedantic here, but as later acts tend to supercede previous, that's a technical crime of rape by a woman? Feel free to correct me.

    It does however preclude the idea that a woman can rape a man.

    On the subject of education, for years it's been proven that girls perform better in mixed classes than boys do, and with the trend towards coeducation in recent times, that is going to have an impact.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,359 ✭✭✭source


    nouggatti wrote: »
    GIven that section 4 b states that
    ( b ) penetration (however slight) of the vagina by any object held or manipulated by another person.
    [GA]

    would that not supercede the earlier act and potentially include the offence of woman on woman rape as rape? Sorry, am being very pedantic here, but as later acts tend to supercede previous, that's a technical crime of rape by a woman? Feel free to correct me.

    It does however preclude the idea that a woman can rape a man.

    On the subject of education, for years it's been proven that girls perform better in mixed classes than boys do, and with the trend towards coeducation in recent times, that is going to have an impact.

    Yes according to section 4, a woman could rape a woman, however the point i was trying to make is that a woman cannot be charged with the rape of a man.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    nouggatti wrote: »
    On the subject of education, for years it's been proven that girls perform better in mixed classes than boys do, and with the trend towards coeducation in recent times, that is going to have an impact.
    I think you've got your facts mixed up. I'm [pretty sure the prevailing view is that girls do better in single sex schools and boys do better in co-ed schools.

    Also, nothing's been "proven" about this ever (It would be advisable never to use the phrase "it's proven" in relation to things like this)

    Studies over the years have suggested multiple different and sometimes conflicting things about the pros and cons of coeducation for both sexes.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/mar/18/secondary-schools-girls-gcse-results
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/apr/21/girls-boys-english-grades
    http://sify.com/news/co-ed-better-as-girls-calm-boys-in-class-news-national-jegqtHahgjc.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/3309798/Single-sex-classes-get-boys-back-to-work.html

    etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Cliona99 wrote: »
    OP, Male circumcision has been shown, (by some studies), to reduce the risk of HIV infection. So I disagree with the assertion in the article that it "has as little benefit as removing someones eyelid."

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm

    Female genital mutilation on the other hand

    * (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or injure female genital organs for non-medical reasons.
    * The procedure has no health benefits for girls and women.
    * Procedures can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating, and later, potential childbirth complications and newborn deaths.
    * An estimated 100 to 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.
    * It is mostly carried out on young girls sometime between infancy and age 15 years.
    * In Africa an estimated 92 million girls from 10 years of age and above have undergone FGM.
    * FGM is internationally recognized as a violation of the human rights of girls and women.

    (From the World Health Organisation website). There is no comparison to male circumcison.

    Male circumcision is generally done for culture and cosmetic reasons.
    People in very low risk categories, of HIV, do NOT need to have this procedure yet it is performed as a matter of routine by many families. Much to the point that it is considered a "turn off" for many women, for a man to be uncut

    Also it is an operation that is often carried out by non medical people leading to bleed outs, problems urinating, erictile dysfunction and pain. It is still a medical procedure that is not needed, in the vast majority of cases


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    I think you've got your facts mixed up. I'm [pretty sure the prevailing view is that girls do better in single sex schools and boys do better in co-ed schools.

    Also, nothing's been "proven" about this ever (It would be advisable never to use the phrase "it's proven" in relation to things like this)

    You're right, I was thinking of the figures showing that girls consistently outperform boys at school :rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    No you can't. Mathematics is always one of the six.

    If women claimed they were discriminated against in the driving test because it involved mechanical aptitudes, spatial awareness and physical strength, then men would laugh at them.

    The LC is quite clearly the same for everyone. There is no discrimination.

    No it is not

    You chose your best 6 subjects to make your points. As long as you get the minimum entry requirements in other subjects.
    You can do 9 subjects, scrape the entry requirements in maths, english, irish and use your other 6 subjects, for your points system


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Male circumcision is generally done for culture and cosmetic reasons.
    Indeed, and unless Africa and the Middle East are significantly ahead of Europe in terms of heath care, then unfortunately while useful or even medically necessary in some cases, it looks like circumcision is ultimately an unnecessary, and culturally driven, medical procedure in the vast majority of cases.

    This is not to say that it is the same thing as female circumcision, which would be the equivalent of cutting the whole head of the penis off, however, even if not, it cannot be dismissed on this basis as it is still a form of mutilation which in the vast majority of cases is carried out with no medical justification.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    A proposal to ban male circumcision was considered in Denmark in 2008. I'm not sure what came of it. And there is something happening in MA, in the US - lawmakers trying to get it banned there as well.

    Ban all of it, I say - well, for those under 18 anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Noone over 18 would opt for it unless it was required.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭iptba


    Zulu wrote: »
    Four months later the add persists (yes I did complain btw). It goes without saying if the sexes were reveresed the add would never had seen the light of day.
    Who did you complain to? The Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland http://www.asai.ie are the people with the power. It's quite easy to do - just fill in the form at: http://www.asai.ie/complain.asp . Probably best to look at least a little at the code http://www.asai.ie/asai%20codebook.pdf" before making a complaint. I haven’t looked myself as to what might be relevant parts – if anyone notices any, maybe they could post them, please. It’s all anonymous and free.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    I complained to the shop.
    I've given up on the asai after they choose to ignore our complaints against the "he drives, she dies" campaign.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭iptba


    Zulu wrote: »
    I complained to the shop.
    I've given up on the asai after they choose to ignore our complaints against the "he drives, she dies" campaign.
    Thanks for the reply.

    When you say “us”, do you members of the GC? I’m relatively new here. Anyone able to point me to the thread? And/or the ruling on the ASAI site (I might be able to find it if people give me an approximate idea of time e.g. year (or a bit more info would make this easier)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭iptba


    iptba wrote: »
    Who did you complain to? The Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland http://www.asai.ie are the people with the power. It's quite easy to do - just fill in the form at: http://www.asai.ie/complain.asp . Probably best to look at least a little at the code http://www.asai.ie/asai%20codebook.pdf" before making a complaint. I haven’t looked myself as to what might be relevant parts – if anyone notices any, maybe they could post them, please. It’s all anonymous and free.
    I was a bit lazy. It wasn't hard to find the relevant bits:

    2.16 Marketing communications should respect the dignity
    of all persons and should avoid causing offence on
    grounds of gender, marital status, family status, sexual
    orientation, religion, age, disability, race or membership
    of the traveller community.

    2.17
    Marketing communications should respect the principle
    of the equality of men and women. They should avoid
    sex stereotyping and any exploitation or demeaning of
    men and women.Where appropriate, marketing
    communications should use generic terms that include
    both the masculine and feminine gender; for example,
    the term 'business executive' covers both men and
    women.

    I see there was an unsuccessful (gender) complaint about Special K cereal: http://www.asai.ie/complaint_view.asp?CID=677&BID=33


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭iptba


    keane2097 wrote: »
    I would assume that part of the issue being addressed by aptitude tests the issue that the Leaving Cert, being basically a test of how well you can learn things off by heart, is fundamentally easier for females to do well in no?
    Yes, I think particularly to get the very high points to get into medicine before the aptitude test (560/570+), the Leaving Cert suits more girls than it does boys.
    http://www.examinations.ie/statistics/statistics_2009/LC_Results_by_Gender_Higher_Level.pdf . If one looks at the three core subjects (English, Irish and Maths) and a modern language (which students applying for medicine (e.g. in top stream classes) will generally required by to do) (I just took two as they have most of the numbers, French and German), and look at the A1s which are very important to do very high point courses:

    English:
    Female: 769 Male: 493 Ratio: 1.56:1

    Irish:
    Female: 589 Male: 272 Ratio: 2.17:1

    French:
    Female: 462 Male: 213 Ratio: 2.17:1

    German
    Female: 354 Male: 214 Ratio: 1.65:1

    However,
    Mathematics:
    Female: 197 Male: 383 Ratio: 0.51:1

    It’s long been recognised, that females on average score better in language areas and males score a little better on average in maths areas. Males also tend to score a bit better on average in subjects requiring spatial awareness and mechanical reasoning but none of them are compulsory.

    I disagree that the aptitude example is exactly comparable to affirmative action in the US. What was added was an extra exam, not separate places because somebody was male.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭iptba


    keane2097 wrote: »
    You would need, in addition, a C3 in honours maths to be eligible for most courses, but that would still be your seventh subject.
    That's not right. A pass in ordinary maths will do for lots of courses.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    iptba wrote: »
    That's not right. A pass in ordinary maths will do for lots of courses.

    Not for many university courses, particularly in sciences/engineering iirc, but things might well have changed.

    I was watching tv last night, the DOE in the UK have an ad out to advise car drivers on watching out for motorcyclists. In every circumstance they advertised the motorcyclist as being male, I can't say I was surprised, but I was annoyed at the bias that all motorcyclists are male, every single instance of "what I am behind the helmet" was in terms of motorcyclists being male.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    nouggatti wrote: »
    Not for many university courses, particularly in sciences/engineering iirc, but things might well have changed.
    It's not really "particularly", more "exclusively".

    I'm not aware of any Arts/Humanities degrees which require a C3 in HL maths.

    Whether Arts/Humanities degrees are "real" degrees, of course, is debatable :)


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    It's not really "particularly", more "exclusively".

    I'm not aware of any Arts/Humanities degrees which require a C3 in HL maths.

    Whether Arts/Humanities degrees are "real" degrees, of course, is debatable :)

    That's pretty much my lines of thinking I did Commerce, and there was a min. Maths requirement, almost twenty years ago, so I suppose my point was that for university courses in certain disciplines there is a minimum maths requirement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭iptba


    nouggatti wrote: »
    That's pretty much my lines of thinking I did Commerce, and there was a min. Maths requirement, almost twenty years ago, so I suppose my point was that for university courses in certain disciplines there is a minimum maths requirement.
    Almost 20 years ago, there wasn't an honours maths requirement for Commerce (in UCD anyway). B.E.S.S. in Trinity I think wanted a bit higher than a pass in ordinary (maybe C/C3 (or B/B3?)) and if there was one for Commerce it might have been C/C3 or B/B3 or that sort of thing on ordinary level).

    I think even today few courses outside Engineering and Maths courses (incl. Theoretical Physics which could be said to be mathematical physics) require honours maths.

    There would be more pressure to do honours maths now (and then) if a large percentage of courses required honours maths.

    ETA: Minimum requirements can be seen fairly quickly TCD: http://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/assets/pdfs/TCD_Prospectus_2010.pdf - on pages 13, 15 and 16 - it's an Ordinary C for BESS.
    UCD: https://myucd.ucd.ie/admission/entry_ug.ezc OB3 for lots of business subjects and some science subjects.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Sugar Free


    I know we're going slightly OT but just to add - I started 1st year Science (Omnibus entry) in UCD in 2004 (jaysus I feel old :o) and the Maths requirement was a B3 in *Ordinary* level.

    While different courses will have a greater emphasis on Maths, I'd imagine the C3 at higher level requirement hasn't been around for a long time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Zulu wrote: »
    Noone over 18 would opt for it unless it was required.
    Whether because of its cosmetic or, supposed, sexual benefits, I suspect you'd still get plenty doing it - there's guys who happily get a steel bar put through their penis out there, not to mention all the body alterations that women volunteer for.
    MediumWell wrote: »
    I know we're going slightly OT but just to add - I started 1st year Science (Omnibus entry) in UCD in 2004 (jaysus I feel old :o) and the Maths requirement was a B3 in *Ordinary* level.

    While different courses will have a greater emphasis on Maths, I'd imagine the C3 at higher level requirement hasn't been around for a long time.
    In my day it was just called a C and (honours maths) was a requirement for Engineering and Science (AFAIR) in UCD. Most courses did not require honours maths. TCD was much the same.

    And that for me was long before 2004 :o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Whether because of its cosmetic or, supposed, sexual benefits, I suspect you'd still get plenty doing it - there's guys who happily get a steel bar put through their penis out there, not to mention all the body alterations that women volunteer for.
    Touche!
    You are of course, perfectly correct! :o


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Whether because of its cosmetic or, supposed, sexual benefits, I suspect you'd still get plenty doing it - there's guys who happily get a steel bar put through their penis out there, not to mention all the body alterations that women volunteer for.



    I would still imagine that the number would be less, than the figure now.
    I can not understand how parents, in the developed world (where there is an extremely limited health benefit), think that lobbing off a part of their child's penis, is a good thing


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I would still imagine that the number would be less, than the figure now.
    Of course it would; I think the map I linked to pretty much nailed that one.
    I can not understand how parents, in the developed world (where there is an extremely limited health benefit), think that lobbing off a part of their child's penis, is a good thing
    tradition03.jpg


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Zulu wrote: »
    I complained to the shop.
    I've given up on the asai after they choose to ignore our complaints against the "he drives, she dies" campaign.
    Why not try the Equality Authority? They played a role in forcing Dublin City Council to stop using scantily clad female models to promote DCC events/activities.


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