how do idle civil servants pass the time?

tallaght01 · 20-03-2010 06:21PM

ronanlyons wrote: »

Similar pay as 10 years ago? Their pay increased by 75% between 1996 and 2006, while private sector wages increased by only 65%. And public sector workers started out better-paid to begin with! And that's not taking account of pensions.

Using average pay rises, rather than median pay rises is misleadig when you're dealing with a private sector where people's increase in earnings were hugely divergent.

Birneybau · 20-03-2010 06:25PM

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I would like people to have a little perspective though.
Having to take a 5% pay put from a 50k a year job isn't exactly a completely major thing, regardless of what others might say.

Where did you get your 50k a year from?I left a job in a factory,earning 35k a year for a job in the public sector,wanting promotional opportunities and stability.

Been in the public service 3 years now,promotion freeze in effect and earning less than 25k.

Cop the fcuk on!

galway79 · 20-03-2010 06:43PM

we are all in the **** right now public and private but things will end we just have to wait this out. things will pick up. So cheer up and dont be so ****ING bitter

ronanlyons · 20-03-2010 09:03PM

changes wrote: »

Spending power would have been largely the same for a public servant working in 2000 as it is in 2010 when all is said and done.

You can't just make blithe general statements like this - use stats to back up your points. In fact, using the following:
http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=CPA01C3.asp&TableName=Annual+Percentage+Change&StatisticalProduct=DB_CP
You'll find actually consumer prices rose only 40% in the 10 years to 2006. So someone who's wages rose 75% in the same period would be 25% better off in real purchasing power terms (1.75/1.40)... when all is said and done.

changes · 20-03-2010 09:20PM

ronanlyons wrote: »

You can't just make blithe general statements like this - use stats to back up your points. In fact, using the following:
http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=CPA01C3.asp&TableName=Annual+Percentage+Change&StatisticalProduct=DB_CP
You'll find actually consumer prices rose only 40% in the 10 years to 2006. So someone who's wages rose 75% in the same period would be 25% better off in real purchasing power terms (1.75/1.40)... when all is said and done.

By the way 1996 was 14 years ago. Have you the data comparing 2000 to 2010.

Also, my point on jealousy and begrudgery is half proven by the fact that you drag up 1996 to 2006 data.... where were you and everyone else in 2006? Why were you not complaining then?

Degsy · 20-03-2010 09:33PM

I'm in the education sector and we'vbe never been busier..thousands more people are going to college than ever before and we have reduced staff levels and serious cuts in services yet we still have to keep punters happy.
Factor a seemingly never-ending series of levies and wage cuts and i think we're doing a pretty good job all things considered.
The country NEEDS public services and people willing to do them,everybody has a choice where they want to work..to be targeted for special treatment because we happen to get paid by the govt is unfair.

billybigunz · 20-03-2010 09:37PM

The private sector caused this mess and will prolong it with high wages. We need huge wage cuts in the private sector to promote investment and export activity.

ronanlyons · 20-03-2010 09:40PM

changes wrote: »

By the way 1996 was 14 years ago. Have you the data comparing 2000 to 2010.

Also, my point on jealousy and begrudgery is half proven by the fact that you drag up 1996 to 2006 data.... where were you and everyone else in 2006? Why were you not complaining then?

Not that I matter in any way personally, but in 2006:
(a) I was giving out about public sector pay and had been since 2002 (see my article with Frances Ruane)
(b) I was also working in the public sector.
So over to you.

PS. Figures for 2010 aren't out yet, but I've worked on estimates for 2009:
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/13/public-sector-versus-private-sector-pay-update/

DublinWriter · 20-03-2010 09:41PM

Scones and coffee/tea at 11.00 then more coffee/tea at 3.00.

Degsy · 20-03-2010 09:58PM

ronanlyons wrote: »

Not that I matter in any way personally, but in 2006:
(a) I was giving out about public sector pay and had been since 2002 (see my article with Frances Ruane)
(b) I was also working in the public sector.
So over to you.

PS. Figures for 2010 aren't out yet, but I've worked on estimates for 2009:
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/13/public-sector-versus-private-sector-pay-update/

Nobody ever mentions the property developers and thier bad loans from bad banks..its always the extra few shillings the PS worker gets for time in the job that people whinge about.
See any "10" reg cars this year?I've seen pplenty and they werent being driven by anybody on a 25-30 k ayear job in the PS...a pay scale some people find to be high!!?

billybigunz · 20-03-2010 10:01PM

Or the real issue, property developers and banks in cahoots too see house prices triple in a short period. Wage increases didn't come near that increase.

ronanlyons · 20-03-2010 10:08PM

Degsy wrote: »

Nobody ever mentions the property developers and thier bad loans from bad banks..its always the extra few shillings the PS worker gets for time in the job that people whinge about.

It is possible to have more than one gripe with what's going on in the country around you.

changes · 20-03-2010 10:23PM

ronanlyons wrote: »

Not that I matter in any way personally, but in 2006:
(a) I was giving out about public sector pay and had been since 2002 (see my article with Frances Ruane)
(b) I was also working in the public sector.
So over to you.

PS. Figures for 2010 aren't out yet, but I've worked on estimates for 2009:
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/13/public-sector-versus-private-sector-pay-update/

Ronan my point was that public servants were never a major focus 3, 5 or 10 years ago. Its only now that people are so concerned and outraged at public servants pay and conditions.
Where things really that different 3, 5 or 10 years ago. IMO not sufficiently so to justify outrage now and no outrage at all 3, 5 or even 10 years ago.

I think this is driven by jealousy.

I don't have accurate figures but house prices have probably doubled in that 10 years. As someone who worked in the PS on a temp contract in 2001 i dont feel my spending power is greater today.

Degsy · 20-03-2010 10:37PM

ronanlyons wrote: »

It is possible to have more than one gripe with what's going on in the country around you.

But why go after the taxpayer?
Why not call for the heads of the people who caused this mess instead?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 20-03-2010 10:39PM

Degsy wrote: »

But why go after the taxpayer?
Why not call for the heads of the people who caused this mess instead?

That's called logic, something few people have it seems.

Degsy · 20-03-2010 10:40PM

changes wrote: »

I don't have accurate figures but house prices have probably doubled in that 10 years. As someone who worked in the PS on a temp contract in 2001 i dont feel my spending power is greater today.

We are also told the cost of living has fallen by such and such a percentage...whats the greatest factor driving this "decrease"?
The collapse of house prices and thats about it..anybody will tell you that with very few exceptions day to day cost of living increases every year.

Degsy · 20-03-2010 10:41PM

Annabelle Inexpensive Grail wrote: »

That's called logic, something few people have it seems.

And its also typical of the cowardice of a lot of people..why take on big names and risk a costly legal battle when you can vilify the average working stiff.

ronanlyons · 20-03-2010 10:47PM

changes wrote: »

Ronan my point was that public servants were never a major focus 3, 5 or 10 years ago. Its only now that people are so concern and outraged at public servants pay and conditions.
Where they really that different 3, 5 or 10 years ago. IMO not sufficiently so to justify outrage now and no outrage at all 3, 5 or even 10 years ago.

I think this is driven by jealousy.

I don't have accurate figures but house prices have probably doubled in that 10 years. As someone who worked in the PS on a temp contract in 2001 i dont feel my spending power is greater today.

Last point first - you should do. For example, it's cheaper to rent a place now than 10 years ago. The money you save renting not paying a mortgage will be worth more than the house at the end of the mortgage.

Re your first point, just because people didn't spot a problem 5 years ago doesn't mean we shouldn't tackle it now that they have spotted it. And it's not jealousy - it's simply a reflection of the fact that Ireland has a huge deficit that will have to be tackled by large tax increases AND large spending cuts into the medium term (even very painful adjustments each and every year for the next five years will not be enough).

Most of the money Ireland spends on the public sector is spent paying public sector wages, they're labour-intensive services. Also, Ireland spends a higher proportion of its GNP on its public sector than any other country in the EU. But I doubt there are many who would argue we've a better civil service than the Netherlands or a better health service than France or a better education system than Sweden.

Hence the argument that public sector pay had to come down.

ronanlyons · 20-03-2010 10:50PM

Degsy wrote: »

We are also told the cost of living has fallen by such and such a percentage...whats the greatest factor driving this "decrease"?
The collapse of house prices and thats about it..anybody will tell you that with very few exceptions day to day cost of living increases every year.

If that's what you believe, you might be interested in:
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/05/27/deflationary-food-for-thought/
The price of clothing, footwear and communications fell steadily over the past 20 years. In the last three years, they have been joined by most other goods in the economy. Rents are cheaper now than in 2000.

You are right, though, in relation to services, in particular health and education, which are determined more by wages and less by commodity prices.

Degsy · 20-03-2010 10:51PM

ronanlyons wrote: »

Most of the money Ireland spends on the public sector is spent paying public sector wages, they're labour-intensive services. Also, Ireland spends a higher proportion of its GNP on its public sector than any other country in the EU. But I doubt there are many who would argue we've a better civil service than the Netherlands or a better health service than France or a better education system than Sweden.

Hence the argument that public sector pay had to come down.

We work for the money..we provide vital public services...what do tax exiles provide?Property developers?Bankers?
The govt fcucked the country up and now the low and middle earning taxpayers have tro pay for it?

changes · 20-03-2010 10:51PM

Degsy wrote: »

We are also told the cost of living has fallen by such and such a percentage...whats the greatest factor driving this "decrease"?
The collapse of house prices and thats about it..anybody will tell you that with very few exceptions day to day cost of living increases every year.

Even the simple things like the humble loaf of bread. I remember in my local shop a loaf was about 80p in 2000 now its about €2.20.

Degsy · 20-03-2010 10:53PM

ronanlyons wrote: »

.

You are right, though, in relation to services, in particular health and education, which are determined more by wages and less by commodity prices.

These are growing areas of expenditure because more and more people means more and more people clamouring for health and education...who''s going to staff these services if we're cut so heavily you'd be better off on the dole?

Degsy · 20-03-2010 10:57PM

changes wrote: »

Even the simple things like the humble loaf of bread. I remember in my local shop a loaf was about 80p in 2000 now its about €2.20.

Take the irish international yardstick of how cheap a place is..the pint.
I was in edinburgh a few months ago and a pint was 2.20 in some places and nowhere more than about 3.50..irish pubs by contrast have increased the price of drink steadily untill its now common practise to pay 6 euro for a pint..where's the reduced cost of a night out?How much less does the nitelink or a taxi home cost?
Not a bit of it..prices are constantly going up.

ronanlyons · 20-03-2010 10:57PM

Degsy wrote: »

We work for the money..we provide vital public services...what do tax exiles provide?Property developers?Bankers?
The govt fcucked the country up and now the low and middle earning taxpayers have tro pay for it?

I'm not defending tax exiles or developers, but you have to see things in perspective. Even if you could somehow tax them all 100% of their earnings, you'd only be able to pay the public sector wage bill for a couple of months. Tackling what they've done is important from a justice point of view, but not from a paying-the-bills point of view.

You don't seem to understand that Irish people enjoy an unsustainable lifestyle. The typical worker pays next to no income tax! In almost every other developed country, they would pay 20% of their income in tax. On top of that, the typical public sector worker enjoys a completely anachronistic and unsustainable defined benefit pension. There's just no way we can justify these things, we just don't have the money.

Degsy · 20-03-2010 11:03PM

ronanlyons wrote: »

The typical worker pays next to no income tax! In almost every other developed country, they would pay 20% of their income in tax. On top of that, the typical public sector worker enjoys a completely anachronistic and unsustainable defined benefit pension. There's just no way we can justify these things, we just don't have the money.

Oh rilly?
I work exactly one and a half weeks per month for no money..thats the way it boils down when all the deductions are calculated...where i work is calling for longer opening hours to meet higher demand and we cant staff it because of the feroicity of levies etc..a bloke i work with did approx 500 euro worth of overtime and came out with exactly 38 euro after tax.

ronanlyons · 20-03-2010 11:08PM

Degsy wrote: »

Oh rilly?
I work exactly one and a half weeks per month for no money..thats the way it boils down when all the deductions are calculated...where i work is calling for longer opening hours to meet higher demand and we cant staff it because of the feroicity of levies etc..a bloke i work with did approx 500 euro worth of overtime and came out with exactly 38 euro after tax.

Again, important not to confuse marginal rates with average rates.
Here's a short but hopefully informative quiz on income tax in Ireland.

And here's how much a household with two kids pays (or doesn't) in tax in Ireland compared to our OECD peers.
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/04/27/are-irish-workers-undertaxed/

changes · 20-03-2010 11:12PM

ronanlyons wrote: »

Re your first point, just because people didn't spot a problem 5 years ago doesn't mean we shouldn't tackle it now that they have spotted it. And it's not jealousy - it's simply a reflection of the fact that Ireland has a huge deficit that will have to be tackled by large tax increases AND large spending cuts into the medium term (even very painful adjustments each and every year for the next five years will not be enough).

For people like yourself and others with a decent grasp of economics/governance/politics etc. i don't think it is jealousy or begrudgery

However, i'm meeting people out and about who are telling me that we are overpaid and the country is in a state and so on. People working the black economy and claiming dole etc telling me to take cuts for the good of the country:eek:. They are happy to screw the system but feign concern for the country.....It just feels like good old fashioned begrudgry to me when i hear it.

Everyone is now an expert on how to fix the country and we have become a handy target.
1 billion saved from the public service in the last budget and 10 billion poured into anglo irish bank. The social welfare bill 12 billion in 2005 and 22 billion now. Why the disproportionate focus on the public service?
Its neighbour jealous of neighbour I thinks.

Degsy · 20-03-2010 11:12PM

ronanlyons wrote: »

Again, important not to confuse marginal rates with average rates.
Here's a short but hopefully informative quiz on income tax in Ireland.

And here's how much a household with two kids pays (or doesn't) in tax in Ireland compared to our OECD peers.
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/04/27/are-irish-workers-undertaxed/

Well then increase taxes across the board..hit the rich with a "wealth levy",ban promotions and hiring in the private sector and lower the minimum wage but dont direct the entire self-righteous indigantion of a corrupt economy at the handfull of people who are still working for a living.

ronanlyons · 20-03-2010 11:21PM

changes wrote: »

Everyone is now an expert on how to fix the country and we have become a handy target.
1 billion saved from the public service in the last budget and 10 billion poured into anglo irish bank. The social welfare bill 12 billion in 2005 and 22 billion now. Why the disproportionate focus on the public service?
Its neighbour jealous of neighbour I thinks.

I would agree with both this comment and Degsy's just below it, at least in part. What I'm arguing is that everything has to change in the next five years.

For example, I don't believe for a minute that the Budget just gone will be the toughest in the cycle. It may or may not prove to be the toughest for public sector workers (I imagine the focus will be on cost-cutting productivity enhancements to the tune of 5-10% a year until 2015). But it will certainly not be the toughest for the private sector workers.

The public sector workforce is in a very lucky position, that's all I'm saying, even with the cuts. That of course does not make it right for someone to come along and work in the black economy, claim dole and then tell you you should be taking more cuts.

Banning hiring and promotions in the private sector, however, is just about the barmiest suggestion yet for curing our economic ills! The more hiring and promotion that goes on there, the better for everyone, especially public sector workers as they pay your wages!

uriah · 20-03-2010 11:30PM

dresden8 wrote: »

How much do private sector Gardai or private sector soldiers earn in comparison to their public sector equivalents?

You'll have to ask the private sector garda and the private sector soldier you know how much they earn.

how do idle civil servants pass the time?

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