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Sean Fitz arrested?

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    #32
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Wasn't one of the main issues with Anglo the hiding of inter compnay/directors loans? And if so shouldn't auditors be also held accountable?


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    #33
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Cyrus wrote: »
    just wondering, everyone that wants him jailed and that are looking for convictions etc

    what crime do you want him charged with and what time do you expect that he will do?

    Also, to the poster that thinks that a few high fliers brought this country to is knees :rolleyes:

    He was moving very large sums of money from one bank account to another and back again on a regular basis to help inflate account figures and misrepresent yearly reports, etc, according to accounts of those far better than I to say such things - something like Nick Leeson was doing at one stage to cover his mistakes.
    If this is the case, and I know Sean was/is a clever, crafty man by all accounts, is this somewhere not a case of fraud?
    It will all boil down to legalities and arguments over exact words as defined in law.


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    #34
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Cyrus wrote: »
    Also, to the poster that thinks that a few high fliers brought this country to is knees :rolleyes:

    just 10 people, are causing NAMA to take on 16 billion of debt run up by this "golden shower"

    "high fliers" is to kind a word


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    #35
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,702 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Biggins wrote: »
    He was moving very large sums of money from one bank account to another and back again on a regular basis to help inflate account figures and misrepresent yearly reports, etc, according to accounts of those far better than I to say such things - something like Nick Leeson was doing at one stage to cover his mistakes.
    If this is the case, and I know Sean was/is a clever, crafty man by all accounts, is this somewhere not a case of fraud?
    It will all boil down to legalities and arguments over exact words as defined in law.

    in that respect i would doubt that the practice was illegal, unethical definately, dishonest definately, will he be charged with an offence for it? i wouldnt have thought so.

    The hiding of his loans (at their peak they were 129m) wouldnt have done anything to improve anglos seemingly impressive results at those times, it was done more to circumvent disclosure requirements re related parties etc.


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    #36
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    MaceFace wrote: »
    Fantastic news.

    I hope that this development will go someway towards quelling the conspiracy theorists that exist in certain peoples heads (looks around suspiciously)

    Of course, this should have been done a long time ago, but better late than never.
    Now, lets hope the move through the legal process is more swift wioth Seannie as well as moving on to all others who may have acted inappropriately.

    Listen they have only him in for questioning, we don't know if any charges will be filed against him and if they are we sure as hell don't know if he will ever get any prision time.

    And before you accuse me of conspiracy theories, just remember seanie was buddies with a lot of very influential people in this country.
    He also had a part in some highly contentious decisions (i.e. DDDA) involving government bodies, his bank, councils and some very well connected people.

    If seanie were to start singing about his past some people might start getting a little worried.


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    #37
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,702 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    just 10 people, are causing NAMA to take on 16 billion of debt run up by this "golden shower"

    "high fliers" is to kind a word

    and thats the extent of our problems? i would have thought the annual public sector wage bill is of greater concern


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    #38
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Cyrus wrote: »
    in that respect i would doubt that the practice was illegal, unethical definately, dishonest definately, will he be charged with an offence for it? i wouldnt have thought so.

    The hiding of his loans (at their peak they were 129m) wouldnt have done anything to improve anglos seemingly impressive results at those times, it was done more to circumvent disclosure requirements re related parties etc.

    Thats why it will boil down to very tight legal wording disputes.
    Sean will hire the best of the best - so if he sees a day in prison upon being found guilty of something, I'd be very surprised indeed.


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    #39
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,702 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Biggins wrote: »
    Thats why it will boil down to very tight legal wording disputes.
    Sean will hire the best of the best - so if he sees a day in prison upon being found guilty of something, I'd be very surprised indeed.

    i will be surprised too, it irks me somewhat to see journalists and the general public jump on this jail the bankers bandwagon.

    im no apologist for them, but poor business practices dont normally constitute a crime, at least not one that will land you in jail.


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    #40
    BoardsRanger
    Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭BoardsRanger


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    There has NEVER been a conviction for white collar crime in this country.

    Here's hoping.

    This nonsense has to be rooted out once and for all.

    Frank Dunlop?


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    #41
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    in that respect i would doubt that the practice was illegal, unethical definately, dishonest definately, will he be charged with an offence for it? i wouldnt have thought so.

    The hiding of his loans (at their peak they were 129m) wouldnt have done anything to improve anglos seemingly impressive results at those times, it was done more to circumvent disclosure requirements re related parties etc.

    The practice is called "teaming and lading" and is most definetly illegal.

    ALthough I have not seen the evidence he could be charged on misleading investors, personal gain from a fiduciary position, misappropriation of funds, FRAUD, conspiracy, etc etc.

    There is no tight legal argument here. There are definite legal breaches here.


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    #42
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Cyrus wrote: »
    i will be surprised too, it irks me somewhat to see journalists and the general public jump on this jail the bankers bandwagon.

    im no apologist for them, but poor business practices dont normally constitute a crime, at least not one that will land you in jail.
    Aye, guilty of lack of morals and stupidity definitely.
    Sadly, thats not to easy to put into law on the statute books. :(


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    #43
    ART6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭ART6


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    just 10 people, are causing NAMA to take on 16 billion of debt run up by this "golden shower"

    "high fliers" is to kind a word

    Vultures are high fliers too, so the title is appropriate;)
    Cyrus wrote: »
    i will be surprised too, it irks me somewhat to see journalists and the general public jump on this jail the bankers bandwagon.

    im no apologist for them, but poor business practices dont normally constitute a crime, at least not one that will land you in jail.

    There's a big difference between poor business practices that are the result of incompetence and those that are a deliberate attempt to deceive. In seeking to inflate the share value of the bank, it appears that he deliberately set out to deceive the markets and the shareholders.


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    #44
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,702 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    The practice is called "teaming and lading" and is most definetly illegal.

    ALthough I have not seen the evidence he could be charged on misleading investors, personal gain from a fiduciary position, misappropriation of funds, FRAUD, conspiracy, etc etc.

    There is no tight legal argument here. There are definite legal breaches here.

    explain to me how he was teeming and lading?

    he took out loans with the bank to make certain investments and he has failed to repay these loans.

    Prior to year end he took out another loan with another institution, repaid these loans and after year end he drew down these loans again and repaid the 2nd institution.

    the issue was the non disclosure of these directors or related party loans, i cannot fathom where the teeming and lading is?


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    #45
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,702 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    ART6 wrote: »
    Vultures are high fliers too, so the title is appropriate;)



    There's a big difference between poor business practices that are the result of incompetence and those that are a deliberate attempt to deceive. In seeking to inflate the share value of the bank, it appears that he deliberately set out to deceive the markets and the shareholders.

    again i will make the point, at a time when anglo had loan books in the billions and profits apparently in the billions, how in gods name would the cover up of €100m on the loan book affect the share price?


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    #46
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Cyrus wrote: »
    and thats the extent of our problems? i would have thought the annual public sector wage bill is of greater concern

    the public sector wages and welfare are two other problems among many many problems this country has

    but that's a subject of another thread(s)


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    #47
    scr123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭scr123


    If all the people who have cheated the State over last 40 years walked into government offices tomorrow and coughed up what they owe the national debt would be cleared, the budget deficit would be eliminated, no need to borrow for NAMA and there would be plenty in the kitty to start a stimulas.

    If all those involved were charged with the crimes they committed we would have to build galores of prisons.

    Now, if these extraordinary things happened how many of us could claim we didnt know one person involved ?

    The "high fliers" may be guilty and deserve what they get but are the "low fliers" to be exempt from prosecution ?


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    #48
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    The practice is called "teaming and lading" and is most definetly illegal.

    ALthough I have not seen the evidence he could be charged on misleading investors, personal gain from a fiduciary position, misappropriation of funds, FRAUD, conspiracy, etc etc.

    There is no tight legal argument here. There are definite legal breaches here.

    im not a lawyer

    but from what my accountant told me, anyone being a director and moving a large amount of money around and taking on "personal" loans above a certain amount is in a breach of Company Act > http://www.accountingnet.ie/law_regulation/1Complying_with_Company_Law_When_Giving_Loans_to_Directors_Connected_persons.php

    since we dont actually know details of what Sean did, and how much its hard to tell

    also the latest Company Bill of 2009 (did it pass) tightens up on this much more


    its unlikely that he would be charged for reckless lending, but him moving money around to make the bank appear better than it is might just land him in hot water, and who knows what else did the investigators find in last few years

    /


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    #49
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,407 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    I understand there are three different aspects to Anglo that the authoraties are investigating:
    1. Sean Fitz's personal loan of up to 117 million euro at one stage which I believe was transfered between various banks.
    2. The transfer of circa 7.5 billion off the balance sheet of Anglo before audits and transfer back in after audits. (not entirely sure what this was but anyway)
    3. The "golden circle" of ten who were approached by Anglo and lent money to buy angle shares.

    I beleve fitzpatrick will be questioned about all three aspects as he possibly would be at the center of 2 and 3 as well as one.
    Issue one appear to be an undeclared interest or something similiar which probably goes against corporate law. If it wasnt such a big deal why transfer the loans in the first place? There was obviously something underhanded that he wanted to hide.
    Issue two looks to be at best "massaging the figures" and as such misleading shareholders and stakeholders in the bank. I would hope this is against some company law.
    Issue three is very blatently some form of insider trading, never mind the absurdness of the bank approaching and lending money to these guys in the first place.
    All of the above is roughly correct in my believe and this questioning isnt just about issue 1.


    I hope that people do go to jail over what has happened, but more importantly I hope we've all learned not to trust these guys so much ever again.
    Fitz will no doubt hire the best legal minds and get off scot free as will a number of these guys although one has to has how can the guy afford the best legal aid when he is 70 million or so in debt...............will free legal aid help him, or will he use money he technically owes, us, the taxpayer, to get himself out of a pickle?


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    #50
    Pot Noodle =
    Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭Pot Noodle =


    So it will get brushed under the table then


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    #51
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Pot wrote:
    So it will get brushed under the table then

    If guards pass sensitive information onto certain people in politics, theres no reason to believe that people in power cannot bend their ears if needs be . .

    Cynical . . Yes I am, but what reason have I got not to be ? (awful grammer, my english teacher would be ashamed ! !)


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    #52
    rightwingdub
    Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    I wonder how many of the head crooks in the banks will be charged and also what about the politicians.


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    #53
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,407 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    I wonder how many of the head crooks in the banks will be charged and also what about the politicians.

    No one really knows as of yet.
    Its highly unlikely any of the political elite will get charge with anything unless it's been proven that they've broken a law of some sort.


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    #54
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    rightwingdub wrote: »
    I wonder how many of the head crooks in the banks will be charged and also what about the politicians.
    Sadly, don't hold your breath for that to happen or connections even be investigated.
    The public would be so lucky!
    (I'd love to be proved wrong)


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    #55
    pah
    Registered Users Posts: 3,400 ✭✭✭pah


    Looking through the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 I can see a number of possible offences.

    Section 6


    Making gain or causing loss by deception.


    6.—(1) A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception induces another to do or refrain from doing an act is guilty of an offence.



    (2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.




    Section 10

    False accounting.




    10.—(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he or she dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another—


    (a) destroys, defaces, conceals or falsifies any account or any document made or required for any accounting purpose,


    (b) fails to make or complete any account or any such document, or


    (c) in furnishing information for any purpose produces or makes use of any account, or any such document, which to his or her knowledge is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular.


    (2) For the purposes of this section a person shall be treated as falsifying an account or other document if he or she—


    (a) makes or concurs in making therein an entry which is or may be misleading, false or deceptive in a material particular, or


    (b) omits or concurs in omitting a material particular therefrom.


    (3) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or both.




    Either of these offences warrant arrest and detention for the purpose of questioning.


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    #56
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Basically he was hiding things from the auditors.

    Called teeming or lading or lapping it means that he took out loans from the bank.

    Lets say the audit was December 1-14 November 30th he transfered these loans to his buddy Fingleton over in Irish Permanent. Auditors see these on the books and think that the bank is owed money from Irish Permanent- nothing wrong there. Audit concludes and then on December 15th he transfers the loans back to himself after signing false declarations as to Directors interests.

    If that's not illegal I don't know what is.


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    #57
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,702 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    kippy wrote: »
    I understand there are three different aspects to Anglo that the authoraties are investigating:
    1. Sean Fitz's personal loan of up to 117 million euro at one stage which I believe was transfered between various banks.
    2. The transfer of circa 7.5 billion off the balance sheet of Anglo before audits and transfer back in after audits. (not entirely sure what this was but anyway)
    3. The "golden circle" of ten who were approached by Anglo and lent money to buy angle shares.

    I beleve fitzpatrick will be questioned about all three aspects as he possibly would be at the center of 2 and 3 as well as one.
    Issue one appear to be an undeclared interest or something similiar which probably goes against corporate law. If it wasnt such a big deal why transfer the loans in the first place? There was obviously something underhanded that he wanted to hide.
    Issue two looks to be at best "massaging the figures" and as such misleading shareholders and stakeholders in the bank. I would hope this is against some company law.
    Issue three is very blatently some form of insider trading, never mind the absurdness of the bank approaching and lending money to these guys in the first place.
    All of the above is roughly correct in my believe and this questioning isnt just about issue 1.


    I hope that people do go to jail over what has happened, but more importantly I hope we've all learned not to trust these guys so much ever again.
    Fitz will no doubt hire the best legal minds and get off scot free as will a number of these guys although one has to has how can the guy afford the best legal aid when he is 70 million or so in debt...............will free legal aid help him, or will he use money he technically owes, us, the taxpayer, to get himself out of a pickle?


    do you have a source for no 2 above, its not something that i recall (altho i may be mistaken)

    also what happened with the golden circle wasnt insider trading unless there were in receipt of price sensitive information


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    #58
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,702 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    Basically he was hiding things from the auditors.

    Called teeming or lading or lapping it means that he took out loans from the bank.

    Lets say the audit was December 1-14 November 30th he transfered these loans to his buddy Fingleton over in Irish Permanent. Auditors see these on the books and think that the bank is owed money from Irish Permanent- nothing wrong there. Audit concludes and then on December 15th he transfers the loans back to himself after signing false declarations as to Directors interests.

    If that's not illegal I don't know what is.

    taking out loans from the bank isnt illegal,

    his practice of hiding may not technically be illegal either and he didnt sign any false declarations because he owed the money to IL&P not anglo.

    The reality was that he owed it to anglo, but again id imagine this was done more to circumvent disclosure requirements as it was immaterial to the results of the bank.


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    #59
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,702 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    pah wrote: »
    Looking through the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 I can see a number of possible offences.

    Section 6


    Making gain or causing loss by deception.






    Section 10

    False accounting.




    10.—(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he or she dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another—


    thats all fine, but what gain was there to him? he borrowed money and he owed it to the bank, where is the fraudulent gain?


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    #60
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    It may not be illegal per se, but it's certainly immoral and unethical. I am ever hopeful...while we may not be in the habit of convicting people for this kind of thing, hopefully we're about to set a precedent. Everything changes....and with any luck we might be about to see the start of some changes.There's no point in writing the whole thing off before it even starts.

    I also hope there are some developers and lenders feeling very uncomfortable right about now.....


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    #61
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    aking out loans from the bank isnt illegal,

    his practice of hiding may not technically be illegal either and he didnt sign any false declarations because he owed the money to IL&P not anglo.

    The reality was that he owed it to anglo, but again id imagine this was done more to circumvent disclosure requirements as it was immaterial to the results of the bank.

    Come off it- are you his golf buddy or something?

    He mislead shareholders as to the extent of his interests whilst serving as a director.

    117 Million appropriated by a director who is in no position to pay them back affects the results of the bank and it's bottom line.

    Saying it was not a false declaration is a joke- do you have any knowledge of law. Courts will look through to the substance of the transaction and determine the true beneficial owner.


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