Should state subsidisation of Irish private schools continue?

ascanbe · 18-03-2010 04:57AM

themont85 wrote: »

They don't though. They have the same recruitment policies as state schools. They are sent HDIP students like the rest. Fee paying schools don't recruit teachers from other schools, Grind schools do though. The vast majority of the teachers in my school were either former pupils themselves or had been at the school pretty much since they started teaching. Never in my whole time was any teacher parachuted in.

Been a teacher in a state school isn't a problem in getting grades as plenty of free schools have shown, the demographics of an area are the most important. The only way to avoid this is to 'bus' kids into different areas.

And believe it or not, the IoE find out results or at least the general consenus of their students. If a a student getting a grind there goes on a Friday night for example they hand out a information sheet and ask specific questions about teachers who are good and could teach in their school.

Anyway I have to get back to work now , enough of this socio economic discussion for one night.

Fine. The question of subsidising 'private' schools and the proliferation of grind schools doesn't bear direct comparison, though.
Anyway, nice to converse with you.

themont85 · 18-03-2010 04:58AM

ascanbe wrote: »

Yeah. Everyone knows that the McCarthy Report and its implementation, bailing out the banks and NAMA were all decisions made with nothing but the best interests of all the citizens of this state at heart.
No thought was given to temporarily calming the more affluent and kow-towing to the international economic 'think-tanks' who pretend to care for us; the IMF etc.
Actually, perhaps the government did have all our best interests at heart, though there is serious reason to doubt this; doesn't change the fact that they are mistaken/have been mislead and that everyone in this state will be left to rue this.

Most of the McCarthy report wasn't implemented. That was an independent report made up of economists and tax consulatants. A vast amount of the things included in that report were deeply unpopular and would have lost major sections of the public's support, that is why the Government chickened out. The report had no problem in pissing off large swathes of the middle classes with its findings in third level and child benefit along with specific groups like discontinuing the Dept of the Gaeltacht.

Bringing Nama ect in discredits your argument and has nothing to do with McCarthy.

ascanbe · 18-03-2010 05:07AM

Alicat wrote: »

I went to a private school and loved it. Nice small classes/years. I would've hated to be shoved in with the 300 odd yobbos in my local.

If what you have stated is true and this is your contribution to the debate, then it doesn't say much for the education you recieved.

Alicat · 18-03-2010 05:09AM

ascanbe wrote: »

If what you have stated is true and this is your contribution to the debate, then it doesn't say much for the education you recieved.

Oh get off your high horse please. I didn't come here to have a huge debate. I just said that I enjoyed my private school education and it was better for ME.

ascanbe · 18-03-2010 05:14AM

themont85 wrote: »

Most of the McCarthy report wasn't implemented. That was an independent report made up of economists and tax consulatants. A vast amount of the things included in that report were deeply unpopular and would have lost major sections of the public's support, that is why the Government chickened out. The report had no problem in pissing off large swathes of the middle classes with its findings in third level and child benefit along with specific groups like discontinuing the Dept of the Gaeltacht.

Bringing Nama ect in discredits your argument and has nothing to do with McCarthy.

This is the reason i brought the word 'implementation' into my post regarding the McCarthy report; i used the the word implementation because only some of it has been implemented and some of it still, supposedly, is pending implementation.
I only compared Nama etc, to the 'implementation' of the McCarthy report in that they are decisions made by the current government.
Some of it has been implemented; this has already had its effects.
What i should have stated was; as it has been implemented so far.

Outrage · 18-03-2010 09:40AM

ascanbe wrote: »

If you are wary of the 'tentacles of socialism' then surely you should be railing against the states role in providing anything for people; you should especially be disgusted by the fact that the state interferes/subsidises 'private' schools.

Too right. Schools should strive for as much independence as possible. As it stands, many schools have large endowments which facilitates this. If the Minister decided to stop paying teachers' salaries on the basis of class warfare, the private schools would simply double their fees the next morning making them even more exclusive. I believe the State has a role in specifying a standard examination (i.e. the Leaving Certificate) that facilitates universities to pick the brightest students and allow employers to make a reasonable decision about someone's work ethic.

ascanbe wrote: »

'Fund a scholarship scheme for disadvantaged children'?; the states role should be to ensure that every child has the right to a basic education.
Are you seriously trying to suggest that those who advocate for private schools are misunderstood philanthropists?
I find that laughable but i digress; if they are, indeed, philanthropists, then they shouldn't be relying on the state to aid them in their largesse.
Kind of misses the point.

You'll find that most private schools and universities in Britain and Ireland run scholarship schemes/student hardship funds/disability access programs. It's the Christian thing to do. What is hair-brained socialism, is to try and force feed children with a homogenised Columbine High -style education system that you seem to be a proponent of.

Glenster · 18-03-2010 10:28AM

Rebelheart wrote: »

Facts? Then there's Coláiste Eoin and Coláiste Iosagáin....or the fact that 33 of the top 50 "feeder schools" to university are not fee-paying....

Everyone knows schools with Irish names produce social misfits.

My point was that in a society without bars, without the restriction that comes with charging a nominal fee for certain schools, schools placement in Ireland would be random. Your little angel could end up going to Castleknock community college.

Outrage · 18-03-2010 10:35AM

Glenster wrote: »

Your little angel could end up going to Castleknock community college.

Or Marino tech...

You talk about this Utopian "random" schools placement scheme. What you fail to realise that there is huge variance in standards from one institution to the next. Some schools are better than others.

Glenster · 18-03-2010 10:35AM

People who go to Private schools end up making more money on average than those who go to public schools, pay more taxes, dont go on the dole as much, and are net contributers to society.

Why shopuld the state subsidise rotten community schools whose graduates (or not) end up on the dole, in prison, or make a career out of nuisance lawsuits?

Sheeps · 18-03-2010 10:40AM

they should ban public schools tbh, maybe then EVERY school in ireland could become private the standard of education would be increased.

Outrage · 18-03-2010 10:52AM

Let's not forget that a lot of parents discourage (both explicitly and implicitly) their children from educational achievement. There are pockets of the country where to do well at school is to be seen as a freak: a sort of traitor to the underclass that bore him. This street culture must be broken and I think teachers and the government have a role to play in this regard. Then again, you can only lead a horse to the water... It's unfortunate that innocent children's lives get destroyed because of the culture of the underclass.

Theodre Dalrymple has a very good thesis on the British education system in his book, "Life at the Bottom": a great read.

Sheeps · 18-03-2010 10:54AM

Outrage wrote: »

Let's not forget that a lot of parents discourage (both explicitly and implicitly) their children from educational achievement. There are pockets of the country where to do well at school is to be seen as a freak: a sort of traitor to the underclass that bore him. This street culture must be broken and I think teachers and the government have a role to play in this regard. Then again, you can only lead a horse to the water... It's unfortunate that innocent children's lives get destroyed because of the culture of the underclass.

Theodre Dalrymple has a very good thesis on the British education system in his book, "Life at the Bottom": a great read.

rofl

Glenster · 18-03-2010 12:02PM

Outrage wrote: »

Let's not forget that a lot of parents discourage (both explicitly and implicitly) their children from educational achievement.

So true.

All these public schools want is to keep the parents happy, god forbid they push the children towards any kind of greatness.

They enforce this, I'm not afraid to say it, Communist agenda of absolute equality on the kids of this nation, unaware (or possibly just not caring) that leaders and heroes are being trained across the street in the private school.

It's like the Berlin wall never fell.

hooradiation · 18-03-2010 01:15PM

Glenster wrote: »

So true.

All these public schools want is to keep the parents happy, god forbid they push the children towards any kind of greatness.

They enforce this, I'm not afraid to say it, Communist agenda of absolute equality on the kids of this nation, unaware (or possibly just not caring) that leaders and heroes are being trained across the street in the private school.

It's like the Berlin wall never fell.

Oh god, you're not afraid to say communist!
You're so serious you're not even afraid to say it when it's nothing like what you're describing at all.
how fearless!

*swoons*

Glenster · 18-03-2010 02:11PM

hooradiation wrote: »

Oh god, you're not afraid to say communist!
You're so serious you're not even afraid to say it when it's nothing like what you're describing at all.
how fearless!

*swoons*

I'm as serious as cancer when I say that Batt O'Keeffe is a chancer.

Our children's future has been mortgaged in the name of some sort of pseudo-liberal "every child left behind" programme.

Now all we're left with is a shell of a system that feeds in on itself, producing graduates so insanely jealous of those who get good schooling that they try and destroy the last vestiges of our working education system.

What's next, the Gulag?

=

hooradiation · 18-03-2010 02:20PM

Glenster wrote: »

I'm as serious as cancer when I say that Batt O'Keeffe is a chancer.

Sweet fucking jesus.

Glenster wrote: »

Our children's future has been mortgaged in the name of some sort of pseudo-liberal "every child left behind" programme.

lets see,
meaningless, empty talking points - check
attempt to use liberal as a pejorative - check

Glenster wrote: »

Now all we're left with is a shell of a system that feeds in on itself, producing graduates so insanely jealous of those who get good schooling that they try and destroy the last vestiges of our working education system.

oh hey, it's an appeal to fear.

Logical fallacy - check

Glenster wrote: »

What's next, the Gulag?

And wrapped up by the poster making light of human suffering by pretending that this imagined threat is in any way comparable to the gulags and then try and equate Batt O'Keeffe to Stalin.

This is some grade A horsehit you've posted, and you touched on all the key points of making a really terrible argument.

I'm glad to see your fine education, that others are so envious of, has given you all the tools you'll need to succeed in your chosen field of posting absolute drivel.

allprops · 18-03-2010 03:49PM

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Excellent reply hoor
The problem with f-p-s is not the students that they take in but the ones they leave out. The point that many of them are run by priests who have taken a vow of poverty makes them laughable! Hypocrisy in the RC church. there's a first. They can set their own entry requirements and can therefore corrupt the final IT league tables etc.

Outrage · 18-03-2010 03:57PM

hooradiation wrote: »

I'm glad to see your fine education, that others are so envious of, has given you all the tools you'll need to succeed in your chosen field of posting absolute drivel.

What kind of education system do you want then, smarty pants? Cos if it's an education system that denies parents the right to educate their children as they see fit, then go shove your communist agenda where the sun don't shine.

hooradiation · 18-03-2010 04:01PM

Outrage wrote: »

Cos if it's an education system that denies parents the right to educate their children as they see fit, then go shove your communist agenda where the sun don't shine.

What the fuck are you babbling about?

Ohh and please continue to cry about these communists you imagine everywhere, you're doing your argument fucking wonders when you're reduced to inventing stances for people and insulting them over what you imagine them to be.

Glenster · 18-03-2010 04:38PM

hooradiation wrote: »

meaningless, empty talking points - check
attempt to use liberal as a pejorative - check
Logical fallacy - check

Getting a lot of use out of that clipboard you got for Christmas?

hooradiation · 18-03-2010 05:47PM

Glenster wrote: »

Getting a lot of use out of that clipboard you got for Christmas?

If this is your "comeback" then i suggest you just go back into your corner and keep an eye out for more of these communists you see everywhere.

At which time, I'd encourage you to put together another post of the same quality of the one you made earlier, then delete it, set fire your PC and then scatter the remains far and wide.

I think that will be for the betterment of all concerned.

Herb Powell · 18-03-2010 05:50PM

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

I honest;y think it's just funding elitism. bar 1 person, everyone I've known from private schools was an absolute stuck up prick

spurious · 18-03-2010 05:55PM

Wherever people on this thread were educated, many seem to have missed the fact that the vast majority of Irish schools, primary and secondary are in fact 'private schools', fee-paying or not.

If this is a discussion about fee-paying schools, the thread title needs to be changed. All the CBS, Mercy, Holy Faith, De la Salle, Marist, Vincention, Sisters of Charity (etc.) schools are 'private' schools, even if funded by the tax payer.

VEC schools and some community colleges are publicly owned.

melekalikimaka · 18-03-2010 06:22PM

spurious wrote: »

Wherever people on this thread were educated, many seem to have missed the fact that the vast majority of Irish schools, primary and secondary are in fact 'private schools', fee-paying or not.

If this is a discussion about fee-paying schools, the thread title needs to be changed. All the CBS, Mercy, Holy Faith, De la Salle, Marist, Vincention, Sisters of Charity (etc.) schools are 'private' schools, even if funded by the tax payer.

VEC schools and some community colleges are publicly owned.

i think the chip on shoulder brigade are on a roll her with the 'fee paying schools', and to them far more gratifying... i pulled out of this debate a long time ago, first post back on point in many a page

sagat2 · 18-03-2010 07:03PM

spurious wrote: »

If this is a discussion about fee-paying schools, the thread title needs to be changed. All the CBS, Mercy, Holy Faith, De la Salle, Marist, Vincention, Sisters of Charity (etc.) schools are 'private' schools, even if funded by the tax payer.

VEC schools and some community colleges are publicly owned.

All elitist establishments built to keep the honest working man down while pushing the select few "chosen" children to the top of the ladder at the expense of other children. Like factories for creating leaders of the New World Order.

Lets band together and take from the rich so that we may all be poor!

Herb Powell · 18-03-2010 07:41PM

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

spurious wrote: »

Wherever people on this thread were educated, many seem to have missed the fact that the vast majority of Irish schools, primary and secondary are in fact 'private schools', fee-paying or not.

If this is a discussion about fee-paying schools, the thread title needs to be changed. All the CBS, Mercy, Holy Faith, De la Salle, Marist, Vincention, Sisters of Charity (etc.) schools are 'private' schools, even if funded by the tax payer.

VEC schools and some community colleges are publicly owned.

that's just being pedantic now to be fair

_Bella_ · 18-03-2010 09:06PM

I personally think that the state subsididisation of private schools should continue. The parents of these schools pay their taxes and therefore they deserve the right for their childrens education to be paid for. It is then the parents choice if they would like to pay extra on top of that for the extra facilties. There are a few advantages to going to private schools. I go to a private school and in many sports leagues the private schools are the ones winning the Leinster leagues. In transition year there are far more activities done in private schools. I feel its the parents choice if they want to pay extra for these facilities.

beanyb · 18-03-2010 09:12PM

_Bella_ wrote: »

In transition year there are far more activities done in private schools. I feel its the parents choice if they want to pay extra for these facilities.

That's not necessarily true. I went to a fee paying school, and to say our transition year was absolute sh*te would be an understatement of the highest order. I know people from local community schools that did far more. And the school that I went to would be very highly regarded.

_Bella_ · 18-03-2010 09:17PM

Hmm I guess it depends on the organisation. I know my school would be doing alot more things then most of the people I know who go to public schools.

18-03-2010 09:23PM

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet but there is absolutely no state funding given to primary schools in this country. Now, I am guessing, that if private secondary schools were abolished or made totally unaffordable to most people, then the majority of children in private primary schools would end up back in the state system also. Most people (not all) would not send their child to a private primary school and then to a public secondary school. So if all the children currently in the private primary system were to go back to the state system, surely that would cost the government more money??

Should state subsidisation of Irish private schools continue?

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