Cardinal will only step down if told by Pope

Ultravid · 15-03-2010 03:31PM

Good background reading here for anyone interested in throwing out both baby and bathwater:

http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020820_Keep_the_Faith_Change_the_Church.html

I also add that the RCC today has among the best, most robust child protection system in Ireland. Also the Church isn't finished, but is in need of constant purification. This is happening as we type.

the_dark_side · 15-03-2010 03:31PM

in case there are people that havent seen this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xajCUE6oHkI

philologos · 15-03-2010 03:32PM

super_furry wrote: »

There's denial from top to bottom over the entire thing within the church. From the Pope to the parishioners - there's not even any mention of it on the Christianity forum here.

Most likely 1) there is mention of it everywhere else, and 2) a lot of the posters in the Christianity forum aren't Roman Catholics.

prinz · 15-03-2010 03:35PM

super_furry wrote: »

- there's not even any mention of it on the Christianity forum here.

There has been many many threads on child abuse by religious on the Christianity forum. Unfortunately the vast majority end in name calling and tarring with the same brush, much like this..

genericguy wrote: »

.. fcuk all you catholics.

Basically it adds nothing.

humanji · 15-03-2010 03:36PM

the_dark_side wrote: »

just looked it up....

"....A citizen's arrest occurs when a citizen detains a criminal and holds them until the police arrive and arrest the criminal. A citizen only can "arrest" a criminal if he witnesses the commission of the crime by the criminal. The crime must be an actual criminal offense, not a mere traffic offense or violation of an ordinance. Other terms for citizen's arrest include citizen's detention and private person arrest.
What are the Limitations of Citizen's Arrest?
A citizen may not use deadly or excessive force when detaining a criminal. Furthermore, law enforcement must agree with the citizen that a crime has occurred prior to the filing of any charges against the alleged criminal."

Sorry, I meant does an arrest have to occur before a certain amount of time goes by? For example if no one is arrested after 10 years then the case is closed.

the_dark_side · 15-03-2010 03:40PM

humanji wrote: »

Sorry, I meant does an arrest have to occur before a certain amount of time goes by? For example if no one is arrested after 10 years then the case is closed.

Im not sure of that, although I have to admit, the likelyhood of anyone having the neck to do it is another matter

PeterIanStaker · 15-03-2010 03:42PM

Ultravid wrote: »

Good background reading here for anyone interested in throwing out both baby and bathwater:

http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020820_Keep_the_Faith_Change_the_Church.html

I also add that the RCC today has among the best, most robust child protection system in Ireland. Also the Church isn't finished, but is in need of constant purification. This is happening as we type.

And why would a Catholic continue to go to Mass? => http://www.chastitysf.com/q_whychurch.htm

I'm very much interested in throwing out baby and bathwater. And I still maintain that the organisation is finished, but not anytime soon. It will be gone in another perhaps generation or two.

Ultravid · 15-03-2010 03:47PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

I'm very much interested in throwing out baby and bathwater. And I still maintain that the organisation is finished, but not anytime soon. It will be gone in another perhaps generation or two.

I doubt that. Cultural Catholicism is finished in Ireland, that is for sure. But the Faith itself will live on, in a much smaller, purer, more authentic fashion than the shambolic hypocrisy which is now dying. That is very much to be welcomed in my view.

Mr. Incognito · 15-03-2010 03:51PM

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0315/abuse.html

Cardinal Brady rejects calls to resign
Monday, 15 March 2010 14:05
Cardinal Seán Brady has reiterated his determination not to resign in the wake of new information about the way in which he dealt with paedophile priest Brendan Smyth.

In an interview with RTÉ News this morning, Dr Brady said it was not a resigning matter and he rejected the suggestion that his silence had allowed Fr Smyth to continue to sexually assault children for a further two decades.

He also said he heard calls for him to stay on and deal with the matter of abuse.

Clerical child abuse victim Marie Collins has called for the remit of the Murphy Commission to be extended to every diocese in the country.

Speaking on RTÉ's News At One, Ms Collins said Cardinal Brady has lost his credibility.

She said the State needs to establish how many other abused children had to signs oaths of secrecy and how many other clerical abusers had been protected in this way.

Those comments were echoed by Colm O'Gorman, who said Cardinal Brady rose through the ranks in the Catholic Church while Smyth continued to rape and abuse children.

Also on Morning Ireland, Fr Kevin Hegarty, the first priest to publicly challenge the bishops' handling of clerical sexual abuse, said Cardinal Brady should reflect on his position.

Speaking on Today with Pat Kenny, Monsignor Maurice Dooley, former Professor of Canon Law, said Cardinal Brady had no obligation to report anything to gardaí.

At the weekend, Dr Brady confirmed that he was present in 1975 when two young victims of the late Fr Brendan Smyth were asked to sign an oath of secrecy.

The Cardinal - then a part-time secretary to the then Bishop of Kilmore, the late Francis McKiernan - took notes during two meetings with children who he believed had been abused by Smyth.

The senior churchman said his actions in 1975 had been part of a process that removed the shamed cleric's licence to act as a priest. He maintained that Smyth's Norbertine Order was otherwise responsible for him.

Fr Brendan Smyth later admitted a litany of sex attacks on around 90 children over a 40-year period and was sent to prison - where he died in 1997.

Yesterday, Cardinal Brady rejected claims that he had failed to act and said he was not the designated person responsible for contacting the relevant statutory authorities.

This Man should b in JAIL.

He knew that children were being abused- he took notes of the meetings and the church made them sign secrecy agreements.

Now he rejects that he was the person responsible to report it.

THIS MAN IS A CARDINAL. A supposed Bastion of Morality.

It makes me sick.

DrumSteve · 15-03-2010 03:52PM

I know someone has probably said it there anything the catholic church doesn't pervert?

Elenxor · 15-03-2010 03:56PM

[QUOTE=Ultravid;64919378

"I also add that the RCC today has among the best, most robust child protection system in Ireland. Also the Church isn't finished, but is in need of constant purification."

Why would does the RCC need these "robust child protection systems"

It's all too little...too late my friend.

Blackhorse Slim · 15-03-2010 03:57PM

Ultravid wrote: »

I also add that the RCC today has among the best, most robust peadophile protection system in Ireland.

FYP

PeterIanStaker · 15-03-2010 03:59PM

Ultravid wrote: »

I doubt that. Cultural Catholicism is finished in Ireland, that is for sure. But the Faith itself will live on, in a much smaller, purer, more authentic fashion than the shambolic hypocrisy which is now dying. That is very much to be welcomed in my view.

If it were to live on, it would need laymen and women in charge, women priests, an end to clerical celibacy, and most importantly, should not be allowed within a country mile of a school or the Irish Constitution.

Ultravid · 15-03-2010 04:07PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

If it were to live on, it would need laymen and women in charge, women priests, an end to clerical celibacy, and most importantly, should not be allowed within a country mile of a school or the Irish Constitution.

If any one saith that in the Catholic Church there is not a hierarchy instituted by divine ordination, consisting of bishops, priests, and ministers; let him be anathema. (Council of Trent, Session XXIII, De Ordine, canon 6)

The Church cannot ordain women: that can't and won't happen. The Church is Divinely instituted as a hierarchical Church, that is unchangeable. Celibacy is a discipline, but I can't see that changing, nor would I welcome any change. What we need in the Church is faithfulness and loyalty to Christ. It was dissent which caused all these bad things to happen.

PeterIanStaker · 15-03-2010 04:10PM

So you will leave it the same as it is, and expect it to change?

CokaColumbo · 15-03-2010 04:11PM

genericguy wrote: »

at this stage, i have no respect for anyone who goes to mass anymore. i used to think hey, live and let live, but it has gotten to the stage where anyone who attends, and gives them money is a fcuking idiot. they raped you, they raped your kids, and they blame it on satan. and then they asked for you to donate the money to pay the legal bills. and you still go, and you still give it to them. fcuk all you catholics.

No. 1) There are two collections during mass. One is for the priests of the parish, and one is for the sick and poor of the parish. The second collection is the reason why the Catholic church is the biggest charity in the world.

No. 2) Although the church is the last place any abuse should occur, it is not fair to condemn all Catholics and all priests in general for what has been committed by a small number of lay people and clergy. Do not forget that the vast majority of abuse is committed within the home, by ordinary men and women. Should we "f*ck" all parents? And "f*ck" all uncles and aunts? hmmm?

No. 3) Its the government, not the Church, that is paying for most of the damages to abuse victims.

prinz wrote: »

Why what did I do? I haven't abused anyone, raped anyone, I haven't excused anyone for the crimes they have committed, I fully support prison sentences for anyone who was involved directly or was involved in the cover up.

By the by the majority of abuse takes place in the home.. by parents and family members. **** all you parents, and grandparents, and children, and uncles, and aunts and cousins....

Spot on.

Winty · 15-03-2010 04:16PM

Thanks to all for some great comments

I think we covered some great points but we are running away.
Can I ask the Mod’s to add a poll to sum up today’s points

Vote Yes for Sean Brady to be charged with preventing the course of justice

Vote No as since 1975 the RCC have move on and are trying to put things right

Ultravid · 15-03-2010 04:16PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

So you will leave it the same as it is, and expect it to change?

I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!
- Luke 12

I mentioned purification, loyalty, faithfulness, and fidelity to Christ. That begins with me.

PeterIanStaker · 15-03-2010 04:22PM

Winty wrote: »

Thanks to all for some great comments

I think we covered some great points but we are running away.
Can I ask the Mod’s to add a poll to sum up today’s points

Vote Yes for Sean Brady to be charged with preventing the course of justice

Vote No as since 1975 the RCC have move on and are trying to put things right

Methinks it'll be a Yes, there will be a few token people, the well intentioned sort no doubt, giving it a No, but they're on the Lusitania (i.e, its sinking but the propellors are still running, hastening the demise)

ScumLord · 15-03-2010 04:24PM

CokaColumbo wrote: »

No. 1) There are two collections during mass. One is for the priests of the parish, and one is for the sick and poor of the parish. The second collection is the reason why the Catholic church is the biggest charity in the world.

No. 2) Although the church is the last place any abuse should occur, it is not fair to condemn all Catholics and all priests in general for what has been committed by a small number of lay people and clergy. Do not forget that the vast majority of abuse is committed within the home, by ordinary men and women. Should we "f*ck" all parents? And "f*ck" all uncles and aunts? hmmm?

Those families are separate individual cases, that's like saying most abuse is committed by humans lets lock all humans up or all dogs hate cats, racists.

The Catholic church is a well established organisation that spewed morals on us, condemned and destroyed peoples lives all while carrying out and hiding their own sins. They've abused the power people gave to them and they've been a corrupting influence on the human race for far to long.

It doesn't matter now anyway, like I said it's a sinking ship, do Catholics honestly believe the next generation will fall for the same lies they did? The Catholic church is like something out a fairy tail horror story and in the future all it will be in a distant and shameful memory.

Winty · 15-03-2010 04:24PM

Ultravid wrote: »

I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!
- Luke 12

I mentioned purification, loyalty, faithfulness, and fidelity to Christ. That begins with me.

Now its just getting wierd

This started off about Brady breaking the law nothing to do with Luke aged 12

Winty · 15-03-2010 04:26PM

Sorry I was late adding the poll, please vote

Thanks to the Mod's

orourkeda · 15-03-2010 04:26PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes.

The law should be changed so that anybody. Regardless of who you are, that is aware of any child abuse, or has child abuse reported to them, must report it. Otherwise they are as guilty as the person who carried it out.

Take away any ambiguity, any privileges and any decision making by people who are not trained to make those decisions.

Just a quick question here.

How is it possible to be guilty of a crime you did not commit? It'll be interesting to hear the logic.

I'm not here to defend anyone but I'd very much like to hear why you think this is.

dvpower · 15-03-2010 04:27PM

Ultravid wrote: »

Cultural Catholicism is finished in Ireland, that is for sure. But the Faith itself will live on, in a much smaller, purer, more authentic fashion than the shambolic hypocrisy which is now dying. That is very much to be welcomed in my view.

And not before time.
Now, can we have our health and education systems back?

TheZohanS · 15-03-2010 04:28PM

orourkeda wrote: »

Just a quick question here.

How is it possible to be guilty of a crime you did not commit? It'll be interesting to hear the logic.

I'm not here to defend anyone but I'd very much like to hear why you think this is.

Perverting the course of justice?

Ultravid · 15-03-2010 04:30PM

Winty wrote: »

Now its just getting wierd

This started off about Brady breaking the law nothing to do with Luke aged 12

Gospel of St Luke, chapter 12.:p

orourkeda · 15-03-2010 04:31PM

TheZohan wrote: »

Perverting the course of justice?

What if the victim doesnt want to press charges?

Isnt it their decision?

What about evidence?

hooradiation · 15-03-2010 04:33PM

Ultravid wrote: »

I doubt that. Cultural Catholicism is finished in Ireland, that is for sure. But the Faith itself will live on, in a much smaller, purer, more authentic fashion than the shambolic hypocrisy which is now dying. That is very much to be welcomed in my view.

Isn't this the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

dvpower · 15-03-2010 04:34PM

orourkeda wrote: »

What if the victim doesnt want to press charges?

Isnt it their decision?

What about evidence?

.

DOHC Children First Guidelines wrote:

Standard Reporting Procedure
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]If child abuse is suspected or alleged, the following steps should be taken by professionals and members of the public who come into contact with children:
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](i) a report should be made to the health board in person, by phone or in writing. Each health board has a duty social worker who is available eachday to meet with or talk on the telephone to persons wishing to report child protection concerns. (A list of contact numbers is available in Appendix 1); [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](ii) it is generally most helpful if personal contact is made with the duty social worker by the person who first witnessed or suspected the alleged child abuse; [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](iii) [/FONT][/FONT]in the event of an emergency or the non-availability of health board staff, a report may be made to An Garda Síochána at any Garda Station[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]

[/FONT][/FONT]

Mr. Incognito · 15-03-2010 04:34PM

How is it possible to be guilty of a crime you did not commit? It'll be interesting to hear the logic.

The church as an institution did not abuse these children.

However the church as an institution, protected and moved the priests. Made the victims sign confidentiality agreements when they complained to the church authorities. Refused to co-operate with investigations. Refuse to take responsibility ala Brady, even the Pope has refused to apologise recently but said it was a crime and would not acknowledge blame.

The church as an institution did not commit these crimes, but the culture of cover up and secrecy certainly helped these priest continue to abuse.

Cardinal will only step down if told by Pope

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