Cardinal will only step down if told by Pope

WindSock · 15-03-2010 02:20PM

Quakerism ftw :cool:

genericguy · 15-03-2010 02:21PM

prinz wrote: »

Why what did I do? I haven't abused anyone, raped anyone, I haven't excused anyone for the crimes they have committed, I fully support prison sentences for anyone who was involved directly or was involved in the cover up.

By the by the majority of abuse takes place in the home.. by parents and family members. **** all you parents, and grandparents, and children, and uncles, and aunts and cousins....

not the same prinz, not even close. do you think for example if a father rapes his daughter or son, he can call up his co-worker, let's say another plumber, and ask him to help cover it up? and then, when it eventually gets out, do you think the gardaí and government will say "no, we're not arresting/punishing him, because he works for the plumbing company"?

WindSock · 15-03-2010 02:22PM

seamus wrote: »

"Sure it was thousands of years ago. It all happened so long ago now, we need to operate in the present" - WTF. That "thousands" is not a typo. One woman actually thinks it was thousands of years ago. And she didn't sound old.

Maybe she thought they were asking her about the late J.C dying on the cross?

prinz · 15-03-2010 02:22PM

seamus wrote: »

So by supporting that organisation, you're tacitly approving of their actions in covering up the sexual abuse..

Except I am absolutely not tacitly approving anything. By being a voice within the Chuch calling for change and letting my personal feelings known every time I have contact with a member of the clergy IMO that can do a hell of a lot more than sitting in an armchair and just 'fncking' people out of it......... are you actively doing anything to try and bring change?

seamus wrote: »

I'm not saying that you need to abandon your faith, far from it, but why aren't the congregations putting pressure on their own priests to force change from the bottom up? Withhold church donations, hold protests outside your own churches - let Rome know that its followers won't be happy until the organisation takes responsibility and changes itself completely...

People are.

seamus wrote: »

By going to mass, you're supporting Rome and you're support what the organisation has done.

No, I am not.

seamus wrote: »

Your faith does not hinge on the existence of this organisation. The existence of the organisation hinges on your faith. Let them know that you're losing it..

I have done so.

seamus wrote: »

But in general, the congregations refuse to accept that there was any wrongdoing...

What congregations?

seamus wrote: »

So the congregations are not only supporting an institution that engaged in the wholesale cover up of child sexual abuse, but they also refuse to hear any evidence about it..

Says who? Who refuses to hear any evidence?

seamus wrote: »

So therefore, Fnck you Catholics, fnck the whole lot of you.

Fnck me.. just no need to abandon my Catholic faith, far from it right. Just fncked if I don't..

Sulmac · 15-03-2010 02:23PM

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

This is a case of Canon law -vs- Civil law, failure to report a crime is an offence under Civil law, but I dont know how Canon Law interprets it. He is trying to wash his hands of swearing these victims to silence by invoking some grey area of Canon Law.

Canon law isn't law. It's not made by the Oireachtas, it's not enforceable by the courts service, and it's not applicable to all our citizens. Ergo, it's not [part of] the law of the land.

Using Canon law as a way to justify this is disgusting (I know you aren't, but the Catholic Church is).

Fear Uladh · 15-03-2010 02:24PM

Just found this, it seems we aren't the only ones being hit by this, pope john paul 2nd wouldn't even apologise to this poor chap, fair play on him for saying something. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8564378.stm

genericguy · 15-03-2010 02:24PM

prinz wrote: »

The problem is the Church isn't a law unto itself!!! It's up to our government to take some action. I would happily sit back and watch anyone involved in abuse or covering up abuse get dragged out of their office or church and subjected to the law of the land same as everyone else.

that's not enough for me anymore. the fcking headshops hurt nobody, one or two gobshytes hurt themselves and they're effectively being shut down. a shop gets a fine if it sells cigarettes to kids. people in this country end up in prison over dog licences ffs, yet if you have a little white square on our shirt collar you can fcking bugger anybody with impunity. how do no catholics see that this is not right?

prinz · 15-03-2010 02:25PM

genericguy wrote: »

...do you think the gardaí and government will say "no, we're not arresting/punishing him, because he works for the plumbing company"?

..and who is to blame for not enforcing the law in this case? The abuser or those in authority who know abuse has taken place/and been covered up and don't do anything about it?

Sulmac · 15-03-2010 02:26PM

Chillaxe wrote: »

Just found this, it seems we aren't the only ones being hit by this, pope john paul 2nd wouldn't even apologise to this poor chap, fair play on him for saying something. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8564378.stm

The past few weeks a large number of abuse cases involving Catholic priests have been made public in Austria, Germany, the Netherlands and Switzerland.

I'm pretty sure that this won't be the end of it, either.

prinz · 15-03-2010 02:28PM

genericguy wrote: »

how do no catholics see that this is not right?

I am Catholic, and I'm with you 100%, it's not right. Never has been, never will be.

derfderf · 15-03-2010 02:29PM

If these people actually do believe in god i wonder who they really think god is gonna condemn, a promiscuous gay man that uses condoms to protect himself, or people that covered up the abuse of young children.
Their whole thought process baffles me. If i believed in Jesus i'd definitely be finding my own way of praising him now.

genericguy · 15-03-2010 02:30PM

prinz wrote: »

I am Catholic, and I'm with you 100%, it's not right. Never has been, never will be.

stop being so well adjusted i'm trying to rant

ScumLord · 15-03-2010 02:30PM

prinz wrote: »

The problem is the Church isn't a law unto itself!!! It's up to our government to take some action. I would happily sit back and watch anyone involved in abuse or covering up abuse get dragged out of their office or church and subjected to the law of the land same as everyone else.

But they do see themselves as above the law, they see themselves as doing gods work which is more important than any peoples republic.

As far as I'm concerned the Catholic organisation is an old, outdated religious dictatorship/boy clubs there's no amount of arrests or days in court that will undo what they've done. The church has started down a one way street to oblivion, it's a sinking ship and I don't see why anyone would want to go down with it.

sadieirl · 15-03-2010 02:34PM

genericguy wrote: »

at this stage, i have no respect for anyone who goes to mass anymore. i used to think hey, live and let live, but it has gotten to the stage where anyone who attends, and gives them money is a fcuking idiot. they raped you, they raped your kids, and they blame it on satan. and then they asked for you to donate the money to pay the legal bills. and you still go, and you still give it to them. fcuk all you catholics.

I completely agree - I am so shocked that some of my circle of friends still go to mass. I have no problem with faith but the RC church is just a big paedofile ring.

prinz · 15-03-2010 02:36PM

genericguy wrote: »

stop being so well adjusted i'm trying to rant

Personally I'd suggest a specialist Garda unit similar to the Criminal Assets Bureau and give them extra powers to deal with this, enough extra-judicial reports and enquiries. Time for some zero tolerance, starting with the cardinal.

the_dark_side · 15-03-2010 02:45PM

what if someone was to make a citizens arrest? Seriously, would this be possible... put the law back into the hands of the people, haul in a few of the NAMA 10 along with Daly for good measure

genericguy · 15-03-2010 02:45PM

prinz wrote: »

Personally I'd suggest a specialist Garda unit similar to the Criminal Assets Bureau and give them extra powers to deal with this, enough extra-judicial reports and enquiries. Time for some zero tolerance, starting with the cardinal.

agreed. i actually cannot understand at all though how so many people can actually put their hand in their pocket to feed this money hungry molesting machine though. as long as people keep going to mass, these people will be allowed to continue what they are doing. time for everyone affected/annoyed by the church to start burning them down.

philologos · 15-03-2010 02:47PM

They should have all been brought through the courts rather than letting this continue. What is coming out is starting to show that the problem is deeper than what many people thought. If the RCC wants to redeem itself at all after this it will have to stop being in denial and being more transparent. This is absolutely wrong, and it sickens me to see the scale of this.

anti-venom · 15-03-2010 02:47PM

prinz wrote: »

Personally I'd suggest a specialist Garda unit similar to the Criminal Assets Bureau and give them extra powers to deal with this, enough extra-judicial reports and enquiries. Time for some zero tolerance, starting with the cardinal.

Agreed. This might go a long way towards finally uncovering the wrongdoers and their facilitators in the hierarchy. The Catholic Church can't be trusted to police themselves. They are thoroughly corrupt and their hiding behind canon law is obscene. Canon law should have about the same respect as the 'laws' of the Boy Scouts, ie fine within your organisation but under no circumstances should it trump or supercede the law of the state.

genericguy · 15-03-2010 02:48PM

the_dark_side wrote: »

what if someone was to make a citizens arrest? Seriously, would this be possible... put the law back into the hands of the people, haul in a few of the NAMA 10 along with Daly for good measure

citizens arrest does exist, but it only applies to particular crimes, you'd have to check whether or not they'd meet the criteria for you to be able to arrest them. personally i think you should round up a few priests and stick a broken bottle up their holes. see how long they maintain a wall of silence then.

sbsquarepants · 15-03-2010 02:51PM

To my mind the catholic church is as vile and disgusting an organisation as has ever existed in the history of humanity. I agree with scumlord, it has now gotten to the point where sides must be chosen, we are either with them or against them, no more sitting on the fence. F.uck this, "they do a lot of good too", attitude. I'm sure there were nice nazis, i'm sure there are nice mafiosi, i'm sure there are nice triads etc, means bugger all, the institution is septic and should be proscribed end of story. The catholic church should have it's assets seized and sold right down to to nice summer dresses the priests wear and they should then be expelled from the country, never to return. The organisation is scum, rotten to the core, evil in fact, every and any person who supports it is complicit in my view.

Harsh? Yes, and deservedly so

Fratton Fred · 15-03-2010 02:53PM

Mark200 wrote: »

Great, and thanks to your narrow-mindedness the children in question who suffered child abuse would now be criminals.

It's disgusting that this cardinal didn't report it, but how did he break the law??? I'm pretty sure preventing the course of justice only applies to things like people lying to the police about what they saw. He didn't prevent anything, he just omitted to do something about it.

Are you for real?

What I am saying is that he should have had no choice. He knew children were being abused and he is hiding behind people like you who are giving him excuses.

The law should be black and white, if you know a child is being abused and you do nothing about it, you are as guilty as the abuser.

I'm not sure how that makes me narrow minded, its common ****ing sense as far as I can see.

prinz · 15-03-2010 02:57PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What I am saying is that he should have had no choice.
The law should be black and white, if you know a child is being abused and you do nothing about it, you are as guilty as the abuser..

+1 Reporting to civil authorities should be obligatory.

super_furry · 15-03-2010 02:59PM

I honestly am done with the Catholic church. Don't want to get married in one, don't want to have any children baptised into it and certainly wouldn't want to be buried there.

It's a morally corrupt organisation that seems to be rotten to the core.

the_dark_side · 15-03-2010 03:00PM

Just looked up citizens arrest Ireland, and it does exist, but the offence must be one that would carry a minimum jail sentence of 5 years... aiding and abetting child abuse, does this constitute a 5 year sentnce anyone?

http://www.politics.ie/justice/44617-citizens-arrest-ireland.html

humanji · 15-03-2010 03:05PM

the_dark_side wrote: »

Just looked up citizens arrest Ireland, and it does exist, but the offence must be one that would carry a minimum jail sentence of 5 years... aiding and abetting child abuse, does this constitute a 5 year sentnce anyone?

http://www.politics.ie/justice/44617-citizens-arrest-ireland.html

Is there any sort of statute of limitations thingy for this, though?

the_dark_side · 15-03-2010 03:18PM

humanji wrote: »

Is there any sort of statute of limitations thingy for this, though?

just looked it up....

"....A citizen's arrest occurs when a citizen detains a criminal and holds them until the police arrive and arrest the criminal. A citizen only can "arrest" a criminal if he witnesses the commission of the crime by the criminal. The crime must be an actual criminal offense, not a mere traffic offense or violation of an ordinance. Other terms for citizen's arrest include citizen's detention and private person arrest.
What are the Limitations of Citizen's Arrest?
A citizen may not use deadly or excessive force when detaining a criminal. Furthermore, law enforcement must agree with the citizen that a crime has occurred prior to the filing of any charges against the alleged criminal."

PeterIanStaker · 15-03-2010 03:21PM

Sulmac wrote: »

Canon law isn't law. It's not made by the Oireachtas, it's not enforceable by the courts service, and it's not applicable to all our citizens. Ergo, it's not [part of] the law of the land.

Using Canon law as a way to justify this is disgusting (I know you aren't, but the Catholic Church is).

Thank you, This is exactly the point I was making. The phrase "a law unto themselves" is probably biblical in origin.

PeterIanStaker · 15-03-2010 03:24PM

Jakkass wrote: »

If the RCC wants to redeem itself at all after this it will have to stop being in denial and being more transparent.

It cannot redeem itself. Its over. The RCC is finished.

super_furry · 15-03-2010 03:28PM

There's denial from top to bottom over the entire thing within the church. From the Pope to the parishioners - there's not even any mention of it on the Christianity forum here.

Cardinal will only step down if told by Pope

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