do you think ireland should have a death penalty?

pigeonbutler · 12-03-2010 08:14PM

lightspeed wrote: »

why would be alone in wishing that teh the death penalty be reinstated?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepgee/news/justice/article841077.ece

http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/thoughts.html

its seems more people in britain are for the death penalty than those opposed to it.
From what i read in singapore 95% of the people said they are happy to have the death penalty enforced
if we did a survey and more people supported it than opposed it how would it be democratic for us to ignore the voice of the majority of the people?
What if we did a european survey and most of europe wanted the death penalty introduced at each countrys own discreation? would it be democratic to ignore the results? i dont think it would be. And how much money does it cost to take care of serial rapist and murderers it would save the government millions of euro that we could use in schools or sick childen or whatever. id rather we we just have a big bonfire and burn the money saved than spend it on keeping a serial murdering rapist alive and making sure his stay is comfortable. Abortion is considered murder by many people and yet we had a referandum on that and its illegal here and yet legal in uk and both countries are in the EU ?
id still like those opposed to answer the question which you would prefer , when the government conducts its rapist and murder lottery and if they move a serial rapist or convicted murderer next door to your family or daughter etc. if that your daughter was a victim of one of these rapists would you prefer to have seen him exterminated or just imprisoned to be released back into the population?
If your answer is (a) Yes id rather he had been executed than he had had been given chance to rape and murder my daughter then its fair to say your opinion is completely bias. whereas mine is not.
My opinion however is not bias as i want these animals exterminated whether they live near me or not . Thankfully I know of no friends or family that have ever being murdered or raped nor do i know of any living nearby however i still rather they be executed .if such awful acts where to occur to a loved one my opinion would not be strengthen or weakened it would just be the same. so it comes dow to the question of the location lottery and living next door to a rapist or state/viglante execution.there are no there options as i cant see how we could economically sustain lifetime sentences for all rapists and murderers.

We did that in 2001. It was called the referendum on the 21st amendment to the constitution. The people voted by a majority of 62% to 38% to write into our constitution an absolute prohibition of the death penalty.

There's democracy for you. Did you vote?

Mark200 · 12-03-2010 08:16PM

lightspeed wrote: »

where will the money come from ? do you have it under your couch?
i have checked under mine but no such luck?
should we increase taxes or take from the health care?
where will the magic infinte magic money come from? WHERE?

Right, say you want to implement the death penalty.

That will mean we're out of the EU. Where will the money come to make up for our loss of revenue there?

We WILL extend extra appeals processes to those who are sentences to death. Whether you like that idea or not, if the hypothetical situation came around where the death penalty was introduced - there's not a chance it would happen unless there were guarantees such as extra opportunities to appeal. This system, as I've pointed out to you already, would be far more costly than just locking the criminal up for the rest of his or her life. So where is THAT money going to come from?

Even if we didn't allow these extra appeals, you can be damn sure that the first few criminals sentences to death will bring a constitutional case against the country (which they would win, by the way). The legal fees for this would cost the state a lot of money, as well as compensation to the families of anyone that they've already illegally executed. Where are you going to get the money for that?

Finally, when we inevitably execute a few innocent people - where are you going to get the money to compensate the families of these innocent people when they inevitably sue the state for every penny they can get?

Mark200 · 12-03-2010 08:26PM

lightspeed wrote: »

Ok id like to research this further so can you please specify which countries use the death penalty and still have a high murder rate and a large population?

#2 - El Salvador
#6 - Burundi (Were still using it when stats were gathered)
#7 - Congo
#8 - Sierra Leone
#9 - Jamaica
#10 - Belize
#14 - Central African Republic
#15 - Sudan
#16 - Rwanda (Were still using it when stats were gathered)
#17 - Guatemala
#18 - Tanzania
#19 - Equatorial Guinea
#20 - Zambia

Out of the top 20 countries with the highest murder rates, the ones above have the death penalty

Wikipedia article I used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_nation

lightspeed · 12-03-2010 08:40PM

why would they enevitably win?
Why would it cost more than to imprison them?
Each and every prisoner costs thousands and then has to be accomadated and re accomadated after his life is in danger. How is that more cost effective than execution with 1 appeal trial? You have not proved it you just said that it would cost more? wheres the statistics on this?
if somebody was legally trialed an executed then under what condition could other sue the state over? how would they have a case simply because they simply dont like it?
If other countries followed or wished for the same then we may still be able to stay in the eu. i never knew of such a referandum back in 2001 and i would only have been 13 years of age back then. I think if we had a 2nd referandum on the lisbon treaty then why not on this? and if ireland joined the EU in 1973 and having the death penalty would kick us out of the EU then how come we had a referandum to begin with in 2001?
why cant it be treated the same as abortion laws?
Japan also has the death penalty and very low crime rates
http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/9426

LK_Dave · 12-03-2010 08:42PM

Yes, i believe we should have the death penalty but only for murder...but as regards serious crime repeat offenders, I think we should have the three strikes and out rule...and in this case life should mean life.

lightspeed · 12-03-2010 08:44PM

Mark200 wrote: »

#2 - El Salvador
#6 - Burundi (Were still using it when stats were gathered)
#7 - Congo
#8 - Sierra Leone
#9 - Jamaica
#10 - Belize
#14 - Central African Republic
#15 - Sudan
#16 - Rwanda (Were still using it when stats were gathered)
#17 - Guatemala
#18 - Tanzania
#19 - Equatorial Guinea
#20 - Zambia

Out of the top 20 countries with the highest murder rates, the ones above have the death penalty

Wikipedia article I used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_nation

These countries barely have an economy. When people are on the brink of starving to death and surrounded by war ,rape and murder how would the death penalty be a deterrent.Show me a developed country that use the death penalty and still has a high rate of murder?
Look athe population of china although a communist country but still they have enforced the death penalty and have very low murder rates as have japan.

aDeener · 12-03-2010 08:45PM

super_furry wrote: »

If England had the death penalty, the Birmingham Six would have been executed. If there's even a chance that one innocent person would be put to death, you can't have it.

England still had the death penalty for treason, of which the judge presiding over the guildford 4 case stated he would have imposed it without any hesitance had they been tried for that

Mark200 · 12-03-2010 08:54PM

lightspeed wrote: »

These countries barely have an economy. When people are on the brink of starving to death and surrounded by war ,rape and murder how would the death penalty be a deterrent.Show me a developed country that use the death penalty and still has a high rate of murder?
Look athe population of china although a communist country but still they have enforced the death penalty and have very low murder rates as have japan.

Right so first countries have to meet a certain population threshold to meet your requirements :rolleyes: Now they need a good economy too. And they aren't allowed be surrounded by war. :rolleyes: Jamaica's economy is doing ok, by the way.

Oh yeah, and they're not allowed have guns legalised either according to you (despite the fact that Norway, who have guns legalised, are right by the bottom for murder rates).

Trying to have a debate with you over facts while you keep dreaming up your own requirements is like trying to argue with a brick wall - and I have no desire to do either.

Although, by the way since you stated that China have low murder rates - did you even look at your own link? They have higher murder rates than Ireland. See? Yet, we don't have the death penalty... hmm...

MilanPan!c · 12-03-2010 08:57PM

The death penalty is a joke.

I'm from the US and have seen the state kill numerous innocent men, come close to killing others and at the same crime crime rates have gone up in many places.

It's not a deterent, it tends to kill innocent people and in the states at least it costs more (due to the costs of legal appeals) than life w/o parole.

Plus I think it's kinda not as bad as spending decades in jail.

lightspeed · 12-03-2010 09:13PM

As far as i am aware at the moment in ireland there have not been a large number or innocent people convicted in the past 20 years or so.if its nots an issue now why would people suddenly start getting wrongfully convicted because of the death penalty. and i noted them requirements as im trying to compare countries similar to ireland as ireland is not a war torn third world country and from what i have read jamaica and other countries on that list are not at all similar to ireland.i was not aware norway legalised gun ownership but that is not relavant to the topic at ahand as i asked for you to show me a DEVELOPED country that enforced execution other than the trigger happy americans in the states and nobody has done that yet.
how is it possible that the people in japan can execute people cost effectively and yet they are also satisfied that people are not being wrongfully convicted?
How?

Holsten · 12-03-2010 09:15PM

Yes, yes it should.

I'd be 100% for bringing it back, some people need to be put down.

12-03-2010 09:19PM

Hard Labour - yes

Death penalty - no, not in Ireland, or anywhere tbh

Mike 1972 · 12-03-2010 10:18PM

lightspeed wrote: »

As far as i am aware at the moment in ireland there have not been a large number or innocent people convicted in the past 20 years or so.if its nots an issue now

I would imagine for the people involved it certainly is :rolleyes:

Son Of A Vidic · 12-03-2010 10:21PM

A death penalty in Ireland? only for politicians though.

12-03-2010 10:36PM

Yet another death thread.

Elenxor · 12-03-2010 10:54PM

I'm a peace loving person, I don't believe in violence...but....

I swear if any one seriously hurt "one of mine" on purpose..

I would be judge and jury and visit a horrible revenge on the offender.

It's the only way I would be able to live with myself.

also....I'm not interested in any form of "turn the other cheek"

MickShamrock · 12-03-2010 11:17PM

Yes. Definitely.

Millicent · 12-03-2010 11:56PM

I think this quote from Jimmy Carter sums it up. Very true, IMO.

The measure of a society is found in how they treat their weakest and most helpless citizens.

And if these people are helpless to their desires, or mentally ill (as in many death row cases in the state) or too weak to control their baser instincts or just born *wrong*, how is debasing ourselves as a society and killing them holding us to any higher standards than we hold them?

Millicent · 13-03-2010 12:09AM

Mark200 wrote: »

Right, say you want to implement the death penalty.

That will mean we're out of the EU. Where will the money come to make up for our loss of revenue there?

Hey Mark, not picking a row or anything- I've agreed with most of your posts but just wondering is that definitely true? Wasn't there a provision in the Lisbon treaty that allowed for countries with the death penalty or was that were it had previously existed prior to entry?

I seem to remember Libertas jumping all over it as a *look here, they're trying to send you to war while they force abortions on your women and then sentence everyone to death* kind of thing.:P

Mark200 · 13-03-2010 12:22AM

Millicent wrote: »

Hey Mark, not picking a row or anything- I've agreed with most of your posts but just wondering is that definitely true? Wasn't there a provision in the Lisbon treaty that allowed for countries with the death penalty or was that were it had previously existed prior to entry?

I seem to remember Libertas jumping all over it as a *look here, they're trying to send you to war while they force abortions on your women and then sentence everyone to death* kind of thing.:P

I'm willing to stand corrected, but I don't recall anything like that being in the Lisbon treaty. And after having a quick look on the EU website, I found their policy on the death penalty:

The EU Guidelines on the Death Penalty were the first set of human rights guidelines adopted by the Council in 1998. This guideline underlines the priority the EU attaches to the fight against the death penalty as a strongly held policy view agreed by all member states. The EU is opposed to capital punishment in all circumstances and considers that abolition of the death penalty contributes to the enhancement of human dignity and the progressive development of human rights.

In line with the Treaty on European Union obligation (Article 6) to respect fundamental rights, as guaranteed by the European Convention for the Protection of Human rights and Fundamental Freedoms, all EU member states have abolished the death penalty. Article 2 (2) of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights provides that no one shall be condemned to the death penalty, or executed.

The Guidelines were reviewed in June 2008. The two main objectives of the Guidelines are to:
work towards universal abolition of the death penalty, if necessary with the immediate establishment of a moratorium on the use of the death penalty with a view to its abolition

where the death penalty still exists, to call for its use to be progressively restricted and to insist that it be carried out according to minimum standards which are defined in an annex to the Guidelines and based on international human rights obligations.

In order to achieve these objectives, the EU acts both in its bilateral relations with third countries and in multilateral fora:
at bilateral level, the death penalty is systematically addressed in human rights dialogues and consultations with third countries. In addition, the EU issues public declarations and carries out general demarches as well as intervening on individual cases in line with the Guidelines. The EU pays particular attention to influencing countries whose policy on the death penalty is in flux

at multilateral level, the EU has been active for many years and achieved a breakthrough with the adoption, in December 2007, of a resolution by the UN General Assembly Resolution on a Moratorium on the use of the death penalty (62/149). The resolution was sponsored by a wide, cross regional alliance of countries and successfully repeated in 2008 (63/168).

In December 2007, the Council agreed to establish a 'European Day against the Death Penalty' to be celebrated on 10 October from 2008 onwards.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/showPage.aspx?id=1702&lang=EN

Not sure how up to date that page is though!

Heckler · 13-03-2010 12:27AM

Don't care about the death penalty being used as a deterrant, sometimes society and individuals need revenge. If a man like Oliver Hayes for instance subjected my elderly mother to the death that that poor woman endured and the state handed me a gun with impunity to shoot the ****er he'd be dead right now.

That said, life without hope of release, in a 4x4 sensory deprived metal box with a bread and water diet would suffice in most cases.

lightspeed · 13-03-2010 12:32AM

Millicent wrote: »

I think this quote from Jimmy Carter sums it up. Very true, IMO.

And if these people are helpless to their desires, or mentally ill (as in many death row cases in the state) or too weak to control their baser instincts or just born *wrong*, how is debasing ourselves as a society and killing them holding us to any higher standards than we hold them?

would jimmy carter be against the death penalty if serial rapists entered a lottery and were placed next door to his family?
whats is this talk about standards? i just dont want rapists and murders being moved next door to me despite the fact that the gardai and judges consider them to be extremely dangerous and likely to re offend. what kind of standards are they for decent hard working people to live under?
if people are found guilty of such evil crimes i dont consider them human. how are these species equal to the rest of us?
if im a innocent person going about my life and if im a serial rapist or chld molester i should be treated the same?
Thats a load of bull.
i think the death penalty is nothing more than animal control.

Millicent · 13-03-2010 12:47AM

Mark200 wrote: »

I'm willing to stand corrected, but I don't recall anything like that being in the Lisbon treaty. And after having a quick look on the EU website, I found their policy on the death penalty:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/showPage.aspx?id=1702&lang=EN

Not sure how up to date that page is though!

I must have been mistaken. I was almost certain I read it in the first full treaty but I can't find any decent sources online to back me up so maybe stupid Libertas influenced me more than I'd like to admit. *shudders!*

Millicent · 13-03-2010 12:51AM

lightspeed wrote: »

would jimmy carter be against the death penalty if serial rapists entered a lottery and were placed next door to his family?
whats is this talk about standards? i just dont want rapists and murders being moved next door to me despite the fact that the gardai and judges consider them to be extremely dangerous and likely to re offend. what kind of standards are they for decent hard working people to live under?
if people are found guilty of such evil crimes i dont consider them human. how are these species equal to the rest of us?
if im a innocent person going about my life and if im a serial rapist or chld molester i should be treated the same?
Thats a load of bull.
i think the death penalty is nothing more than animal control.

What's a load of bull? My argument, the quote, the fact that molesters are on the street or the fact that you are using emotive knee-jerk reactions as some kind of argument?

The horrible fact of life is there are bad people out there. Unless you are proposing genocide, they will always be there. Killing them does not make us better; it just brings us down to their level.

lightspeed · 13-03-2010 01:15AM

genocide is precisely what im proposing for their species. those that are serial rapists and murderers and and child molesters are animal sub human creatures to me. we kill cattle for food and they are harmless animals but yet we ensure that serial rapists are kept alive and well and are accomadated. i would happily kill them to clean society. how we we be brought down to theri level by killing them?
kill;ing killers and killing innocent people are two completely different things. the innocent people were murdered and did not have a choice but the murderers out there did have a choice and had no respect for the lives they took or the victims family. They chose to take someones life and knew the consequences. taking the life of an innocent person and exterminating a murderer to are not the same thing at all

MoyVilla9 · 13-03-2010 01:21AM

Should have a poll on this but NO , it has never worked and never will.
There will be innocent people locked up and no state have the right to kill people.

Millicent · 13-03-2010 01:23AM

lightspeed wrote: »

genocide is precisely what im proposing for their species. those that are serial rapists and murderers and and child molesters are animal sub human creatures to me. we kill cattle for food and they are harmless animals but yet we ensure that serial rapists are kept alive and well and are accomadated. i would happily kill them to clean society. how we we be brought down to theri level by killing them?
kill;ing killers and killing innocent people are two completely different things. the innocent people were murdered and did not have a choice but the murderers out there did have a choice and had no respect for the lives they took or the victims family. They chose to take someones life and knew the consequences. taking the life of an innocent person and exterminating a murderer to are not the same thing at all

Alright Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin OP, I see you are impervious to my ninja skills of reasoning and debate so I think I will take myself elsewhere. Anywhere elsewhere. *runs from genocidal maniac* *leaves quietly*

Mrmoe · 13-03-2010 01:44AM

I would agree with introducing the death penalty in Ireland for offenders who have commited premeditated murder and it has been substanially proved that this is true.

Portlaoise prison is the most expensive prison in the country costing €200,000 on average per prisoner per year. €200,000 is a lot of money that could be better spent else where. We have hospital and ward closures in many parts of the country simply because there is not enough money available to keep them open. I know where I would prefer to spend that extra €200,000.

If the death penalty is introduced I won't be losing any sleep over executed murderers.

Alessandra · 13-03-2010 02:09AM

No I don't think we should have the death penalty re-introduced. It would be regression in our thinking. Whilst I would like to see criminals punished for their crimes, I do not think that murdering them is a justifiable option.

A lengthy spell in prison is punishment enough. It's a pity our prisons are so similar travel-lodge hotels and that life imprisonment actually rarely means life.
Also I don't trust the judiciary to make the most prudent decisions in relation to such decisions.

Dr_Phil · 13-03-2010 02:14AM

lightspeed wrote: »

So whats your opinions on the matter?

Well I think that during all this recession and surrounded by foreignes who are stealing our jeerbs (only today the robbed 2 from my backyard) I think that Ireland deserves a death penalty simply because it cannot afford to keep all these scumbags alive.

do you think ireland should have a death penalty?

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