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Greenways and Disused Rail Alignments

2

Comments

  • #32
    HeritageRailway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭HeritageRailway


    dowlingm wrote: »
    In cases where farmers purchased sections of the railway couldn't the Council CPO it back? It would add a bit to cost, but CIE wouldn't have been selling to the Council for nothing and there would have been a requirement for legal cost in the straight conveyance anyway.

    One other thought - could the Transport Act 1944 be amended to allow CIE sell or lease to the Local Authority without giving dibs to the farmers?

    In cases whereby a local community has proposed a walking path along a railway bed, there has been not generally been issues with landowners not granting access for a path. By and large, it has generally been done on a leased basis; purchasing land banks being only suitable for projects that have a definitive long term lifetime given the costs. For the few walkways we have in Ireland, talk of CPO's and amending laws is very much getting ahead of ones self and is far more costly in the long run; try and approach this idea of paths with the feet on the ground first off :)
    MYOB wrote: »
    Some if not all the lines CIE sold off have sell-back clauses on them; its extremely foolish to build a structure on land with a sell back covenant against it... Most former trackbed seems just to be used for access.

    Very few lines had any sell back clauses attached to them as CIE only disposed of closed lines that didn't do the business to justify staying open and didn't have any future. Oold lines tended only to be of use for land access and are still used as such; part of the GNR line at Ballyhaise and the SLNC line at Florencecourt are now a public road.


  • #33
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Nearer to Dublin, the old Harcourt Street line from the Sandyford Luas depot to the proposed Carrickmines stop would be a good stretch to convert to 2-way cycle path plus footpath.


  • #34
    trail man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭trail man


    HeritageRailway wrote: »
    In cases whereby a local community has proposed a walking path along a railway bed, there has been not generally been issues with landowners not granting access for a path. By and large, it has generally been done on a leased basis; purchasing land banks being only suitable for projects that have a definitive long term lifetime given the costs. For the few walkways we have in Ireland, talk of CPO's and amending laws is very much getting ahead of ones self and is far more costly in the long run; try and approach this idea of paths with the feet on the ground first off :)



    Very few lines had any sell back clauses attached to them as CIE only disposed of closed lines that didn't do the business to justify staying open and didn't have any future. Oold lines tended only to be of use for land access and are still used as such; part of the GNR line at Ballyhaise and the SLNC line at Florencecourt are now a public road.

    well said you know your stuff re closed lines...
    if any readers of this thread have aspirations of developing closed lines as walkways/greenways then the southern trail people have been down the long road of dealing with cie. the county council and the biggest player in the game is the farmers each ajoining landowner has to be met and his mind put at rest as to the development of a trail and it only takes one farmer who dosent want the trail to hold things up...
    the line closed in 75 and was lifted in 89 the southern trail committee has been in existence since 89 and only in the last couple of years has the trail been developed... its a minefield but well worth the effort


  • #35
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    trail man wrote: »
    well said you know your stuff re closed lines...
    if any readers of this thread have aspirations of developing closed lines as walkways/greenways then the southern trail people have been down the long road of dealing with cie. the county council and the biggest player in the game is the farmers each ajoining landowner has to be met and his mind put at rest as to the development of a trail and it only takes one farmer who dosent want the trail to hold things up...
    the line closed in 75 and was lifted in 89 the southern trail committee has been in existence since 89 and only in the last couple of years has the trail been developed... its a minefield but well worth the effort

    It is somewhat depressing to read how long these things take - due to a combination of having to get all the right bodies on board, the issue of adjacent farmers - although on this one if the right of way is effectively already owned by the state through CIE I cannot see the major hold up re farmers on any of these projects; it simply should not be allowed; etc etc: I would be willing to put some time and personal energy into campaigning for a programme of cycle/walkways/grenways along various routes - and there are many that could be developed throughout the country but if one is to run into the normal Irish slurry of slow down political and local agendas and civil service bodies writng meaningless strategy papers and with god knows how many fingers in the pie and opinions to be garnered and enquiries to be had - about something as eminently simple as a footpath along an existing right of way, which is for the benefit if all in society - then as a citizen giving your own time you wonder is it worth the personal sacrifice. There are thousands of people here in Ireland willing to give their time to be involved in projects that greenways could create all over Ireland but if it means the usual - slow slow slow progress and too much heed given to every gob****e who opposes such things with no consideration of the greater good of society then any enthusiasm will be wiped away. It is a mailaise we face as a society ...now what has this got to do with greenways???? Quite a lot I think.

    Well done to the southern trail group BTW.


  • #36
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,256 ✭✭✭Rawr


    westtip wrote: »
    It is somewhat depressing to read how long these things take - due to a combination of having to get all the right bodies on board, the issue of adjacent farmers - although on this one if the right of way is effectively already owned by the state through CIE I cannot see the major hold up re farmers on any of these projects; it simply should not be allowed; etc etc: I would be willing to put some time and personal energy into campaigning for a programme of cycle/walkways/grenways along various routes - and there are many that could be developed throughout the country but if one is to run into the normal Irish slurry of slow down political and local agendas and civil service bodies writng meaningless strategy papers and with god knows how many fingers in the pie and opinions to be garnered and enquiries to be had - about something as eminently simple as a footpath along an existing right of way, which is for the benefit if all in society - then as a citizen giving your own time you wonder is it worth the personal sacrifice. There are thousands of people here in Ireland willing to give their time to be involved in projects that greenways could create all over Ireland but if it means the usual - slow slow slow progress and too much heed given to every gob****e who opposes such things with no consideration of the greater good of society then any enthusiasm will be wiped away. It is a mailaise we face as a society ...now what has this got to do with greenways???? Quite a lot I think.

    Well done to the southern trail group BTW.

    Well put, both Trail Man and WestIp.

    It is indeed somewhat distrubing to think, that such a simple to implement concept, with such a positive potential impact, could endure enough resistance to delay it for over a decade.

    In a sweeping (and probably unfair) generalisation, I believe that much of this is down to local land owners. It may very well be the case that several may not want Joe Public anywhere near their land, let alone on a public byway that either borders or cuts through that land. Thus blocking a Greenway would serve this potential agenda.

    In the bigger picture of things, one may see the desire to enjoy Ireland's countryside as a tug-of-war between those who wish to use it, and those who wish to own it and bar all others. I seem to remember hearing of several coastal walkways south of Bray Head becoming inaccessable due to the efforts of land-owners. (I'm afraid I have no references to that, and I do not know what the result was there...) I am of course, painting with the same brush here, and there are no doubt land-owners out there who have no problems with Greenways or trails comming near their land.

    However, I feel that there are enough objectionable land-owners in this country, to present major headaches to many Greenway projects. I feel that legislation does need to be modified to ensure continious Greenway access is assured, from point A to point B, regardless of potential objection to the use of public land. Essentially, Greenways should be treated as public highways, however with bikes instead of cars or trains.


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  • #37
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    trail man wrote: »
    well said you know your stuff re closed lines...
    if any readers of this thread have aspirations of developing closed lines as walkways/greenways then the southern trail people have been down the long road of dealing with cie. the county council and the biggest player in the game is the farmers each ajoining landowner has to be met and his mind put at rest as to the development of a trail and it only takes one farmer who dosent want the trail to hold things up...
    the line closed in 75 and was lifted in 89 the southern trail committee has been in existence since 89 and only in the last couple of years has the trail been developed... its a minefield but well worth the effort

    Thanks for this post ... and to add to this discussion I went looking for their website - it's at http://www.southerntrail.net/.


  • #38
    HeritageRailway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭HeritageRailway


    In fairness, it would also take a long time if you to build a walkway or road on fresh land. There will be many years of research involved in planning a project like this, and given that it would be done by locals as a voluntary basis, it follows that it won't progress as fast as a roadway or other public project that has professional staff employed on it, along with a pressing need for same. Not to say that it will always take a long time but the general experience throughout Europe is for a drawn out process.
    westtip wrote: »
    It is somewhat depressing to read how long these things take - due to a combination of having to get all the right bodies on board, the issue of adjacent farmers - although on this one if the right of way is effectively already owned by the state through CIE I cannot see the major hold up re farmers on any of these projects; it simply should not be allowed; etc etc: I would be willing to put some time and personal energy into campaigning for a programme of cycle/walkways/grenways along various routes - and there are many that could be developed throughout the country but if one is to run into the normal Irish slurry of slow down political and local agendas and civil service bodies writng meaningless strategy papers and with god knows how many fingers in the pie and opinions to be garnered and enquiries to be had - about something as eminently simple as a footpath along an existing right of way, which is for the benefit if all in society - then as a citizen giving your own time you wonder is it worth the personal sacrifice. There are thousands of people here in Ireland willing to give their time to be involved in projects that greenways could create all over Ireland but if it means the usual - slow slow slow progress and too much heed given to every gob****e who opposes such things with no consideration of the greater good of society then any enthusiasm will be wiped away. It is a mailaise we face as a society ...now what has this got to do with greenways???? Quite a lot I think.

    Well done to the southern trail group BTW.


  • #39
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Article from Times on line wrote:
    Ireland's old railways to become cycle routes
    Government earmarks several for conversion to fuel tourism boom

    Stephen O'Brien wrote in the Sunday Times on June 28th:


    The Irish government wants to fuel the boom in walking and cycling tourism by converting dozens of disused railway lines into cycle paths.

    Eamon Ó Cuív, the rural affairs minister, has invited communities living along the most scenic former rail routes, including the famous West Clare Railway, to convert them into tourist cycle paths using the annual €85m rural development fund.

    The West Clare line stretches 50 miles from Ennis around the Burren rock formation to Kilkee on the Atlantic coast and Kilrush on the Shannon estuary. It is typical of the type of route Ó Cuív believes could be surfaced and signposted as cycle paths.

    “We have so many spectacular, old, abandoned railway lines,” he said. “The two that come to mind are the one through the Barnesmore gap, and the one to Caherciveen from Farranfore in Co Kerry, which tracks half of the Ring of Kerry.”

    The number of walking tourists visiting Ireland surged from 168,000 in 2003 to 517,000 last year and Ó Cuív believes the influx can be increased further.

    He includes the old Westport-Achill Island railway line in Co Mayo, a long-abandoned Galway-Clifden route through Connemara, and sections of the old Limerick-Tralee line as suitable for conversion. The former Tralee-Dingle line is another that could be targeted by local rural development groups, as is the former line from Cork city through west Cork.

    Tony Boyd, chief executive of Iron Donkey, an Irish cycle tourism company, welcomed the minister’s suggestion. He said: “Old railway lines are perfect because the terrain is gradual and they are not accessible to traffic.

    “That is the sort of cycling that families are looking for because you can start with children as young as three or four.”

    Boyd added that Ireland’s scenery and reputation for friendliness already placed it in the top 10 cycle-touring destinations worldwide.

    Ó Cuív said most abandoned railway lines passed back into the hands of farmers and landowners decades ago and local Leader (rural development) groups would have to negotiate to secure rights.

    After a difficult start in establishing a national walks scheme, negotiation secured a series of hiking pathways and there are now 182 approved walks. In return for granting rights and agreeing to perform maintenance, farmers can get an annual fee from the state ranging from €725 to €1,900.

    .

    Hopefully this will be taken up and acted upon, this will be great news for walking and cycling tourism if it happens. Lets add the northern section of the wrc to it as well. I know from discussions with Eamon O'Cuiv he is right behind this idea, think I will put this article in the infamous WRC thread as well!

    See the article here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6591558.ece?Submitted=true


  • #40
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,256 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Good stuff, lets hope they actually follow through.

    If they actually pull of a Westport to Achill greenway via the old rail alignment, I for one will over there with my bike!


  • #41
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,882 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8153708.stm
    GP campaign against transit route

    A group of GPs in east Belfast have asked Transport Minister Conor Murphy to reconsider developing a rapid bus transit line along the Comber Greenway.

    The 25 doctors said they feared the greenway could be damaged if the bus system goes ahead as planned.

    They have written to Mr Murphy asking him to reconsider the plan.

    Spokesman John Kyle said the greenway was a popular resource which provided significant health and environmental benefits to the area.

    "The greenway has been a huge success in east Belfast and the residents here really have enjoyed it enormously and benefitted from it enormously," he said.

    "Given the fact that we are facing what people talk about as an obesity and diabetes time bomb, and the need to integrate exercise into our lifestyle, this seems to us an ideal incentive to encourage people in east Belfast to be more active.

    "The Department of Regional Development describe the greenway as seven miles of traffic free tranquillity, if you have buses racing up and down then it loses a huge amount of its attractiveness and its benefit."


    'Recommended route'

    A spokeswoman for the department said a report by independent consultants in 2008 had recommended the greenway route as the best place to develop the transit line.

    "Rapid transit division within the Department for Regional Development are currently moving into the preliminary design stage of the project and are examining all the route options to confirm the findings of the strategic outline case," she said.

    "At present they are carrying out the necessary on-site surveys.

    "The preliminary design plans will form the basis of the public consultation stage when everyone will have an opportunity to view the design and raise any concerns they may have."


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  • #42
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,256 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I have to say, I'm a little torn reading that.
    In one part, it really sucks that this greenway is essentially being turned into a QBC.

    However on the other side of the coin, one of main reasons I support the idea of Greenways, is that of alignment protection.Although this isn't a re-built rail-line it's still intended for public transport.

    I feel that, if greenways are to actually be re-used again for transit, a condition must be placed upon them that the greenway itself will still be provided for (with the pathway merely shifted to beside the track/qbc).


  • #43
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,882 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Rawr wrote: »
    I have to say, I'm a little torn reading that.
    In one part, it really sucks that this greenway is essentially being turned into a QBC.
    It would be a dedicated busway, not a Dublin style QBC.


  • #44
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Victor wrote: »
    It would be a dedicated busway, not a Dublin style QBC.

    And I bet the GPs would still complain if it was a train or a tram.


  • #45
    trail man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭trail man


    its a bit of a dilema for sure...
    but i think that in the republic we have nothing to worry about on that score as the goverment and county councils are bust and they will not be investing in any sort of infrastructure programme for a long time to come...The wheel has fallen off the wagon here and with less cars an buses on our roads maybe people will see the light and get on their bikes and check out irelands wonders... The southerntrail would be a good start..
    :)


  • #46
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,256 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I've decided to bump this old topic, in lieu of what's happening over at the WRC thread from which this was conceived.

    It does appear very likely, that the Western Rail Corridor, North of Athenry, will not go ahead.

    With that very certain possibility in mind, the Burma Road and all of the allignment to Claremorris, is up for potential use as a greenway. I still believe that this would make an cycling amenity that would trump up a large amount local and tourist use.

    Regardless of likely resistance from West On Track, I am hopeful that this is the way things will go for the old alignment.


  • #47
    Hungerford
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    Rawr wrote: »
    It does appear very likely, that the Western Rail Corridor, North of Athenry, will not go ahead. With that very certain possibility in mind, the Burma Road and all of the allignment to Claremorris, is up for potential use as a greenway.

    I wouldn't mind if the Burma Road was turned into a cycleway but I think it's utterly premature to do embark on such a course of action between Athenry and Claremorris.

    That line has a reasonable amount of potential as part of a Galway commuter rail network [the stretch to Tuam] and for future freight use.

    That potential is removed if you spend a fortune to turn it into a cycleway - that said, the idea of cycleways and greenways as a means of preserving rail alignments is a sound one as it reduces the costs of potential reinstatements.

    I bet the government wishes that Clonsilla to Navan had been converted to a cycleway in the 1960s instead of sold off to farmers for a pittance.


  • #48
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,256 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Hungerford wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind if the Burma Road was turned into a cycleway but I think it's utterly premature to do embark on such a course of action between Athenry and Claremorris.

    That line has a reasonable amount of potential as part of a Galway commuter rail network [the stretch to Tuam] and for future freight use.

    That potential is removed if you spend a fortune to turn it into a cycleway - that said, the idea of cycleways and greenways as a means of preserving rail alignments is a sound one as it reduces the costs of potential reinstatements.

    I bet the government wishes that Clonsilla to Navan had been converted to a cycleway in the 1960s instead of sold off to farmers for a pittance.

    Allignment protection is one of the merits of Greenways that I like. Agreed, that Athenry - Claremorris should never be written off as a rail-route, but in the meantime, the alignment is not being used for anything.

    I wonder (not knowing much about Rail engineering) is it possible to construct a pathway, while at the same time doing the foundation-work necessary for future sleepers/tracks?

    If that was possible, perhaps that would make it easier to construct a future line, while at the same time, providing something that could be used in the meantime.


  • #49
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Hungerford wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind if the Burma Road was turned into a cycleway but I think it's utterly premature to do embark on such a course of action between Athenry and Claremorris.

    That line has a reasonable amount of potential as part of a Galway commuter rail network [the stretch to Tuam] and for future freight use.

    That potential is removed if you spend a fortune to turn it into a cycleway - that said, the idea of cycleways and greenways as a means of preserving rail alignments is a sound one as it reduces the costs of potential reinstatements.

    I bet the government wishes that Clonsilla to Navan had been converted to a cycleway in the 1960s instead of sold off to farmers for a pittance.

    Hungerford - I think you pretty much know my views on this one from the WRC thread - and BTW thanks to RAWR for resurecting this thread - it is a worthwhile point of separate discussion away from the marathon of the wrc thread!

    I think the post I made on that thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62960952&postcount=2734

    Really was to say - Look at what can be achieved with effort, Railway and Greenway running parallel.

    The post featured the photograph of the folks walking beside the railway would be a good one for WOT to adopt for the Athenry - Tuam/Claremorris section to give added value to the whole proposition.

    The Sustrans report on different types of greenways - link below is the document to reference - If WOT adopted this as the preferred way of developing this line they would be onside with a lot more people; they would get their railway - the rest of us would get our greenway. The Greenway would be a huge benefit in pushing up passenger numbers on the line.

    http://www.sustransconnect2.org.uk/r...elines%206.pdf go to section 6.2 to again see exactly what is achievable.


  • #50
    unit 1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 549 ✭✭✭unit 1


    Westport Quay under construction. Newport Mulranny resurfacing almost complete i think.An excellent idea but beware idiots on quads methinks.


  • #51
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,389 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    If they had gone with light rail on the Greenway they could have covered the tracks with sod as in Paris to integrate better with the surroundings and used the electrical overhead poles to provide lighting for evening uses. But Wrightbus wouldn't make any money from that!


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  • #52
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    unit 1 wrote: »
    Westport Quay under construction. Newport Mulranny resurfacing almost complete i think.An excellent idea but beware idiots on quads methinks.

    Quads on greenways can be easily controlled with bollards or zig/zag barriers at appropriate entry points and at suitable intervals along the route - also controls high speed cyclists, just make sure buggies and wheelchairs can negotiate the "obstacles".


  • #53
    unit 1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 549 ✭✭✭unit 1


    westtip wrote: »
    Quads on greenways can be easily controlled with bollards or zig/zag barriers at appropriate entry points and at suitable intervals along the route - also controls high speed cyclists, just make sure buggies and wheelchairs can negotiate the "obstacles".
    As long as they are not done on the cheap, cannot tell yet about ones in mayo, except Westport/Quay which seems to have public lighting so maybe cctv as well


  • #54
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    unit 1 wrote: »
    As long as they are not done on the cheap, cannot tell yet about ones in mayo, except Westport/Quay which seems to have public lighting so maybe cctv as well

    strange angle this negative one about quads - they have hundreds of miles of greenways in the UK and they are seemingly used in a perfectly civilised manner for the purpose they were created, walking and cycling, doubtless there may be some anti social behaviour in a minority of cases by use of quad riders and motor cyclists but 99.9% of the greenways have no such anti social behaviourial problems - maybe as the famous advert says the difference is we're irish.


  • #55
    unit 1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 549 ✭✭✭unit 1


    Image0008.jpg

    Image0004.jpg

    Image0006.jpg

    Image0005.jpg.Image0008.jpg

    Some pics of Newport Mulranny scheme.


  • #56
    Rawr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,256 ✭✭✭Rawr


    unit 1 wrote: »
    Image0008.jpg

    Image0004.jpg

    Image0006.jpg

    Image0005.jpg.Image0008.jpg

    Some pics of Newport Mulranny scheme.

    Very nice! :D It's great to see such a well made greenway!


  • #57
    mayo wheeler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭mayo wheeler


    Here is the Demonstration Model that has delivered 18km of new Greenway in Mayo. . . . . Great Western Greenway (Newport - Mulranny)

    Landowners gave permissive Access.

    Dept of Transport Funded under Smarter Travel and National Cycling Framework

    Built fast....Public like it!

    Hope the Co Co can deliver the full 42km Westport / Achill.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNMVG7pMRvs&feature=email


  • #58
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Brilliant pics and youtube video of the mulranny line - methinks if the claremorris/Colooney line can be of the same high standard and the two can be linked we will really have something going for the West of Ireland tour cycling market. Well done and thanks again


  • #59
    trail man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 203 ✭✭trail man


    westtip wrote: »
    Brilliant pics and youtube video of the mulranny line - methinks if the claremorris/Colooney line can be of the same high standard and the two can be linked we will really have something going for the West of Ireland tour cycling market. Well done and thanks again

    great stuff very impressive .. we now have 2 old rail lines converted to walkways/cycle paths in the republic..
    Here in west limerick we are extending our path from ardagh to rathkeale then all of county limerick will be done and north kerry beckons..
    Denis mc auliffe...


  • #60
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Jaysus - what a video - would make me want to run the other way. Nice to see the trackbed clear though, all that's needed now is some 2ft gauge track and a South African Beyer-Garratt loco hauling 20+ tourist saloons with a dining car dispensing lashings of ginger beer.

    In Wales they do railways in Ireland bicycles - which do you think are more likely to bring in visitors? :D



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  • #61
    mrsdewinter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭mrsdewinter


    We need more cyclepaths like the Newport-Mulranny affair. Friends of mine are just back from a cycling holiday in Europe, and they are already grumbling about how Ireland is being left behind on this front. With long-distance holidays becoming a thing of the past (thanks, Icelandic volcanoes & recession), more and more people are going to be either staycationing or - hopefully, in the case of the Brits - opting to restrict their holidays to countries within ferry distance.


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