Ireland needs socialism, says President McAleese

ei.sdraob wrote: »

theres an obvious love for socialism on this forum

someone needs to point out that its socialistic policies that are putting the taxpayer on the hook here

Actually it is FF's policies that are putting the taxpayer on the hook.

Labour opposed NAMA. FF - who sit with the Liberals at EU level - supported it.

Based on your definition of what socialism "is", I guess that would mean FF is socialist, but Labour is not.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Come off it, DF. We're talking about Mary McAleese here: an intelligent woman who happens to view the people of Ireland in a romantic way. This is Celtic mist stuff, not a big political pronouncement.

To be fair just about every major leader in history has been almost described in the same way. Even the Godwin Guy had a way with words.

I don't mind that you are a libertarian, just as you don't mind that I have a different perspective. But I would be alarmed if you adopted the worst American FOX habit of seeing reds under every bed.

FYP

Eh... when she starts banging on about "the means of production", "red terror", "dictatorship of the proletariat" etc then you might have a point about the Soviet terminology.

If its not Soviet its still plainly Socialist. And I think thats the OPs whole point. I really dont think a Direct comparison to USSR is trying to be made.

There should be a politics sub-forum for sensationalist tabloid threads like this.

When your President starts talking about Socialist ideals while the backdrop of her argument is a video that portrays the Irish citizen as nothing more than a group of Farmers and Peasants? Thats Tabloid?

Socialism is supposedly all about fairness and equity. What is fair and equitable about Mary and co in oublic sector on significiantly more than ave wage, brilliant guaranteed pensions, etc. What is fiar and equitable that our now limited reources ,instead of going to the sickest and most vulnerable go to keeping our public sector(including president) among the best paid in the world! Bizarro stuff.

WalterMitty wrote: »

Socialism is supposedly all about fairness and equity. What is fair and equitable about Mary and co in oublic sector on significiantly more than ave wage, brilliant guaranteed pensions, etc. What is fiar and equitable that our now limited reources ,instead of going to the sickest and most vulnerable go to keeping our public sector(including president) among the best paid in the world! Bizarro stuff.

Maybe that would be because our system isn't socialist?

Perhaps Bertie A wasn't a socialist after all?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

no its gombeenismTM that got us here

is increasing welfare from 6 to 21 billion in a decade (well above rate of inflation in same period) a right wing policy?

Do bankers and speculators have nothing whatsoever to do with how we got here?

seamus wrote: »

TBH, I don't see her remarks as being any more socialist than, "Ask not what your country can do for you...."

Thats a misinterpretation: its from a speech with regard to opposing Communism; But rather than tell His Fellow Americans (and estranged Soviet brothers) to plough fields:

"Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths, and encourage the arts and commerce. " - John F. Kennedy

http://www.famousquotes.me.uk/speeches/John_F_Kennedy/5.htm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

do people who bought these properties and speculated on bank shares have nothing to do with how we got here?

do people who voted in FF time and time again have nothing to do with how we got here?


see i can play that game too

playing games
how did people who bought bank shares (a mix of people, pension funds, retired people who expect a regular dividend, insurance funds etc buy bank shares traditionally) lead to Irish banks over-lending/lending imprudently.

Many people bought houses to live in, not as a speculative practice, maybe this is a new concept for you. Of course because the market was king many of these people would have been better off renting at that time and buying when prices crashed. Maybe they're among the ranks of the unemployed now. Ah well, that's the unfettered market for you.:cool:

I love messages like this, people who are well off advocating for equality, like Bono asking everyone to donate to charity despite how well off he is. Reminds me of animal farm, everyone is equal, although some are more equal than others.

If she was that concerned about getting the country on its feet again, she could forgo a large percentage of her salary. Given that she barely does anything anyway it would only be right.

Overheal wrote:

When your President starts talking about Socialist ideals

Which socialist ideals? Sharing the fruits of our labour? Sharing the fruits of our labour is not a specifically socialist ideal as we're already sharing the fruits of our labour through our welfare system and through our foreign aid.

The worst that Mary McAleese's comments can be seen as advocating is a return to the communitarian values of 1930s rural Ireland. Unless I'm mistaken, 1930s rural Ireland was a land of property-owning farmers who suffered very little interference from a socialist government. Farmers who helped each other gather the harvest did so voluntarily and they were under as little compulsion to share the fruits of their labour as they would have been in any other non-socialist country. The principle of meitheal is a principal of voluntary neighbourliness and has nothing to do with the kind of coercive state socialism that some people are trying to suggest our president is advocating.

Overheal wrote:

while the backdrop of her argument is a video that portrays the Irish citizen as nothing more than a group of Farmers and Peasants? Thats Tabloid?

I don't think the video is tabloid. I think this thread is tabloid. Mary McAleese did not say that Ireland needs socialism and the poster who started this thread knows well that she didn't say we need socialism.

Whatever about the actual message she gave, I would be of the view that the President, like the Queen of Britain, should refrain from making political statements, and stick to things everyone agrees on like hard work and human rights.

In particular, I feel this statement was at best ill-timed, considering we're socialising the losses of banks. She's essentially telling us to accept that rich people lost us tens of billions and that we need to pay for their mistakes.

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Whatever about the actual message she gave, I would be of the view that the President, like the Queen of Britain, should refrain from making political statements, and stick to things everyone agrees on like hard work and human rights.

In particular, I feel this statement was at best ill-timed, considering we're socialising the losses of banks. She's essentially telling us to accept that rich people lost us tens of billions and that we need to pay for their mistakes.

The woman just can't win. Essentially her message was "let's all pull together in these difficult times", and she is now being blamed for just about everything that is wrong in Ireland today.

I'm not a fan of Mary McAleese, but I think if you want to criticize her, you need a better basis than this.