Can someone tell me??.... smallbore

sbw · 02-03-2010 02:23PM

Sparks wrote: »

Until the Sports Council actually focus more on the 'Sport' bit than the 'Council' bit, or until someone wins the lotto, that's not really likely to change, so personally, I'd welcome a policy change on that, but it'd have to be done right.

So where do the sports council fit in? I would have thought that the ISSF dealt with the NTSA, not the sports council. Thus it would be up to the NTSA who to send and on what level of support.

Sparks wrote: »

Meet 90% of the medal-winners in ISSF matches and you'll have met someone who earns their living doing ISSF shooting. Allmost all the US ISSF shooters are USAMU; many more are funded by USA Shooting; any of the Finnish, Australian, Italian, French or German shooters are all fully funded; and the same's true of almost every other nation that succeeds in ISSF shooting bar the Chinese and that's more because the concept doesn't really apply to the Chinese shooters as they're virtually slave labour. But between national funding, commercial endorsements and prize money, most of the top shooters are fully funded. I just don't think it's the case for the other 95% of international shooters (but for most of that 95%, there's a fair bit of funding in place, there are virtually no purely self-funded ISSF international shooters that I know of).

Fair point. I should have thought about that a bit more before I typed it. But, whilst there are salaried shooters out there, in some cases, they'll have had to slog for years shooting out of their own pocket to get into that position. Whatsmore, the salary will vanish pretty quickly once their scores drop towards the end of their career, so really their salaried spell will be sandwiched (and possibly interspersed) by periods of shooting out of pocket. But you're right that the very top level shooters more than 'break-even'.

We've digressed a little here. I was just trying to underscore that self-funding is inevitable for most shooters world-wide. Provided an adequate qualifying structure is in place, self-funding to world-cups seems a natural extension of self-funding through training.

Sparks · 02-03-2010 02:38PM

sbw wrote: »

So where do the sports council fit in? I would have thought that the ISSF dealt with the NTSA, not the sports council. Thus it would be up to the NTSA who to send and on what level of support.

The ISSF do deal with the NTSA. However, they're not the only ones the NTSA deal with, there's the Irish Sports Council (ISC) and the Olympic Sports Council (OCI). The OCI is the link from the IOC (though the ISSF acts partly in that regard as well), but the ISC is the link to the Irish government and it's where the state funding comes from.

whilst there are salaried shooters out there, in some cases, they'll have had to slog for years shooting out of their own pocket to get into that position.

Yes, but they wouldn't have been shooting internationally representing their countries at the time, whereas they would be here. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that it's not quite as uncomplicated and string-free as it seems at first glance, no matter which way you decide is the 'right' way.

We've digressed a little here. I was just trying to underscore that self-funding is inevitable for most shooters world-wide. Provided an adequate qualifying structure is in place, self-funding to world-cups seems a natural extension of self-funding through training.

It does - but there are things hidden away in there that'll bite you. For example, the money comes into the sport from the ISC, who have a mandate to promote inclusion as well as excellence - if a good shooter can't go to a WCup because he or she can't afford it, it's a problem for the ISC if the NTSA just says "tough, we're self-funded"; but if the NTSA funds one, there are demands to fund all equally, which makes no sense if one shooter is poor and another isn't. (And yes, I've seen those arguments being made by shooters over the years).

sbw · 02-03-2010 03:00PM

Sparks wrote: »

The ISSF do deal with the NTSA. However, they're not the only ones the NTSA deal with, there's the Irish Sports Council (ISC) and the Olympic Sports Council (OCI). The OCI is the link from the IOC (though the ISSF acts partly in that regard as well), but the ISC is the link to the Irish government and it's where the state funding comes from.

OK. But, in practice, do you think that the Sports Council would be that vigilant of the details of the NTSA's practices? After all, it has much higher profile sports to concern itself with.

Sparks wrote: »

For example, the money comes into the sport from the ISC, who have a mandate to promote inclusion as well as excellence - if a good shooter can't go to a WCup because he or she can't afford it, it's a problem for the ISC if the NTSA just says "tough, we're self-funded"; but if the NTSA funds one, there are demands to fund all equally, which makes no sense if one shooter is poor and another isn't. (And yes, I've seen those arguments being made by shooters over the years).

Really? I mean, you know what's happening better than I do, but I'd be surprised if that's what the ISC meant by inclusion. In my experience of sports bodies, when they talk about inclusion and excellence, they mean them as two separate things, not to be mixed: inclusion at a grass roots level, excellence at an elite level.

On the second point, in my experience, most sports bodies would fund people equally, considering that to be the fairest scheme.

intershoot · 02-03-2010 03:53PM

sbw wrote: »

That'll be contributing to why it's not getting sufficient use then. Only a limited number know the facility exists!

I dont think it matters how many people know, or dont know about it. We have all the usual faces from all over Ireland appearing at the competitions, and to be honest anyone who is a regular shooter knows the exact stage the range in Dungannon is at.

The problem is, everyone wants to piss and moan about facilities this, and funding that....

In my opinion, to get the sport of its knees the shooters have to take responsibility for the mess it is in. The level of commitment of the shooters needs to improve dramatically....I know the top 5-10% are fully committed.....but its not them that's doing most of the whinging.

Sparks · 02-03-2010 04:23PM

sbw wrote: »

OK. But, in practice, do you think that the Sports Council would be that vigilant of the details of the NTSA's practices? After all, it has much higher profile sports to concern itself with.

No, and not for that reason. The Sports Council (and I hear this from other sports, not just "minority" sports) is more politics and less sport, and that's a problem. And it was ever thus, I was warned about this a decade ago and it was as true then as it is today.

Really?

Really. The ISC would rather fund grass roots than elite sport unless elite means "photo op for the Minister with some olympic medals" and if that photo op is a few years of proper funding out, then they're not so interested. And they don't quite seem too keen on funding grass roots shooting either because that's not a photo op the Minister wants. But it's not just us, if that makes it easier - I've seen the same complaints coming from the UK, from the US, from half the continent and from further afield. Noone anywhere, it seems, thinks their admin bodies do a good job or that their sport is properly funded and supported. At best, we avoid outright persecution (and that best isn't a common occurance in this country).

On the second point, in my experience, most sports bodies would fund people equally, considering that to be the fairest scheme.

When someone on the dole can shoot 595 and is being funded to the same level as a barrister who's shooting the same score, that isn't as fair as you'd think. The problem here is that there are several approaches to this, and all of them have very good supporting arguments both morally and pragmatically. It's not an easy choice to make.

sbw · 02-03-2010 04:52PM

Sparks wrote: »

When someone on the dole can shoot 595 and is being funded to the same level as a barrister who's shooting the same score, that isn't as fair as you'd think.

In this outrageously hypothetical example, sports bodies could offer a hardship subsidy to the former, but in a more likely example of two office workers on different salaries, both shooting 595, the same talent should warrent the same subsidy.

sbw · 02-03-2010 04:53PM

Floydster, have you considered marrying a Thai bride and shooting for Thailand. It might be easier.

FLOYDSTER · 02-03-2010 05:34PM

sbw wrote: »

Floydster, have you considered marrying a Thai bride and shooting for Thailand. It might be easier.

Anyone got a number for Ting Tong??:D

xesse · 02-03-2010 05:45PM

you get a shooter to a world cup by practice ,practice,practice
if i wanted to go to a world cup in pistol i would be practicing now instead of looking at boards

FLOYDSTER wrote: »

You have the wrong end of the stick!!, People can train in the house 7 days a week if they wish BUT how is that going to get them to the Olympics or Europeans or any other major match??

If there is no structure to get anyone there what do we do??, and the structure must be there but with other people who have been competing the last 6 years I havent asking about procedures it must be confusing or not common knowledge??

You might as well draw straws to see who goes!;), and its not just for my benefit I'm asking!, other shooters from Ireland have been complaining but havent got the bottle to ask or dont want to rock the boat!!

So just to clear things up, how do we get a shooter to a world cup for example?, or is it purely down to lack of funding?;)

Bananaman · 02-03-2010 05:56PM

As far as I remember NTSA had a route to ISC funding when they were a member of the SSAI which is the the route through which all monies from the state are directed to target shooting - bar clay shooting which is obviously not target shooting in the eyes of the state.

NTSA then left the SSAI - thereby relinquishing any access they had to ISC funding.

Now - as it turns out - this year there was no funding for Target Shooting through the SSAI so it's a moot point but if the NTSA want access to ISC funding surely they must again seek membership of the SSAI at some point?

It is not realistic to have the goal of sending people to major international events and not having them fund themselves. In all other shooting disciplines it is the only mechanism by which it has happened.

On one hand you have Derek Burnett & Co who got a wedge as they were going to the Olympics but that was still a pittance of what was required - they funded themselves or they did not go.

On the other hand you have people going to Major F-Class, Benchrest, Pistol, etc events many times every year. In order to do that they have to 100% fund themselves.

It may not be a nice fact but it is still a fact - that taking part in international competition is only available to those that can afford it.
If you cannot then you need to make the best of what you can get at home.

The Olympics is a lofty goal but if you must have state funding to do it - nobody will ever go as there is patently no interest within the state in having it happen.

Does it not make more sense to try to get a better inter club competition season going so people can have more competition and show 'the powers that be' that there is actually a sport worth funding?

It's great when it gets easier - e.g. the IPSC World Shoot is in Greece next year - it is still 12 days of accommodation, food, drink and ammo - no small outlay - but at least you don't need a mortgage to get there - the previous two were in Bali, Indonesia and Cebu, Philippines - it'll be a while before it's back in Europe again - must remember to start chucking a few more bob into the credit union.

B'Man

xesse · 02-03-2010 06:11PM

yea i agree
the ISSF in this country is in a bad way at the moment
in the last 2 yrs i dont think i,ve been in a competition with more than 20 shooters, and to jump from that to a olympic qualifer or a world cup is a bit foolish i think
we should build the inter-club and national competition up first

Bananaman wrote: »

As far as I remember NTSA had a route to ISC funding when they were a member of the SSAI which is the the route through which all monies from the state are directed to target shooting - bar clay shooting which is obviously not target shooting in the eyes of the state.

NTSA then left the SSAI - thereby relinquishing any access they had to ISC funding.

Now - as it turns out - this year there was no funding for Target Shooting through the SSAI so it's a moot point but if the NTSA want access to ISC funding surely they must again seek membership of the SSAI at some point?

It is not realistic to have the goal of sending people to major international events and not having them fund themselves. In all other shooting disciplines it is the only mechanism by which it has happened.

On one hand you have Derek Burnett & Co who got a wedge as they were going to the Olympics but that was still a pittance of what was required - they funded themselves or they did not go.

On the other hand you have people going to Major F-Class, Benchrest, Pistol, etc events many times every year. In order to do that they have to 100% fund themselves.

It may not be a nice fact but it is still a fact - that taking part in international competition is only available to those that can afford it.
If you cannot then you need to make the best of what you can get at home.

The Olympics is a lofty goal but if you must have state funding to do it - nobody will ever go as there is patently no interest within the state in having it happen.

Does it not make more sense to try to get a better inter club competition season going so people can have more competition and show 'the powers that be' that there is actually a sport worth funding?

It's great when it gets easier - e.g. the IPSC World Shoot is in Greece next year - it is still 12 days of accommodation, food, drink and ammo - no small outlay - but at least you don't need a mortgage to get there - the previous two were in Bali, Indonesia and Cebu, Philippines - it'll be a while before it's back in Europe again - must remember to start chucking a few more bob into the credit union.

B'Man

It wasn't me! · 02-03-2010 06:44PM

The problem there xesse is numbers. We don't have them. You're not going to get a hundred people turning up to a 50m prone shoot here. It's unfortunate, but we just don't have a pool big enough to do it. The transition is always going to be hard, but that's why we go to matches like Bisley and the Isle of Man Easter Shoot, or the Grad Prix in Plzen or things like that, to smooth it. That's where the real way to progress is, in my opinion.

Sparks · 02-03-2010 07:05PM

Bananaman wrote: »

As far as I remember NTSA had a route to ISC funding when they were a member of the SSAI which is the the route through which all monies from the state are directed to target shooting - bar clay shooting which is obviously not target shooting in the eyes of the state.

That's not carved in stone and there were several reasons the NTSA shouldn't have been in the SSAI B'man - and if they were in it, the IPSA couldn't join and the ITS couldn't be in it now, so them leaving was a win-win. The only people annoyed seem to have been the ISC, and frankly the ISC are breaking their own rules of non-interference by being annoyed and are being inconsistent in not recognising the NTSA independently because absolutely every single other olympic sport is recognised independently by the ISC to simplify organisational issues (because that way the OCI and ISC talk to the same people instead of the OCI talking to the NTSA and the ISC talking to the SSAI, which throws things out of kilter). Even those sports already catered to elsewhere are recognised independently for the olympic cases - eg. there's a Martial Arts federation the ISC recognises, but they recognise olympic judo and olympic taekwondo seperately (and there are other examples).

if the NTSA want access to ISC funding surely they must again seek membership of the SSAI at some point?

Nope, and the NTSA can't join the SSAI unless you want to kick the NTSA out of ISSF or the ITS out of the SSAI.

It may not be a nice fact but it is still a fact - that taking part in international competition is only available to those that can afford it.

The problem is that that can be taken to the point where your wallet decides your national team place, not your ability - and at that line, you go from sport to hobby. The NTSA has a long history of not wanting to risk crossing that line, and as much as I think self-funding is going to be necessary, I can completely understand their motive there. I've seen some international matches run on that basis and it makes all your national teams into a joke when it happens, not just for that one event. The national badge isn't something we should let that happen to.

The other thing to remember here is this - we pay somewhere in the region of €6 million euro per annum into the exchequer in return for no services whatsoever. Looking to get a chunk of that money back in state support for sport (which in turn gives something back to the state in sporting prestige and ministerial photo ops, not to mention increasing sport participation which lowers healthcare costs and fulfils stated policy goals), there's not a damn thing wrong with that. The money came from our pockets, I'd rather it went to sending juniors abroad to the world championships than to lining a ministerial merc's seat....

FLOYDSTER · 02-03-2010 07:18PM

xesse wrote: »

you get a shooter to a world cup by practice ,practice,practice
if i wanted to go to a world cup in pistol i would be practicing now instead of looking at boards

PMSL!!, so if I practice at my range every day for the next year I will be picked for a world cup??

Would I not have to shoot some kind of comps, or go through some kind of selection or prove to someone somewhere I can actually shoot??

I think I'll cancel my trips to IOM,Plzen,Hanover and Bisley, save all that money and practice at Comber instead!!;)

Sparks · 02-03-2010 07:34PM

It's worth noting, by the way, that this shows up in other sports and other countries as well, some with a lot more manpower and money than us. So the fact that we've not cracked it isn't completely heinous...

xesse · 02-03-2010 08:00PM

from what i believe you olny have to shoot a qualifing score at a selection competition for a match for intershoot or a world cup
if you were to shoot at a local range 4-5 times a week , you would have a much better chance of really improving rather than travelling to IOM
never been to comber so couldn,t comment on that range

FLOYDSTER wrote: »

PMSL!!, so if I practice at my range every day for the next year I will be picked for a world cup??
Would I not have to shoot some kind of comps, or go through some kind of selection or prove to someone somewhere I can actually shoot??

I think I'll cancel my trips to IOM,Plzen,Hanover and Bisley, save all that money and practice at Comber instead!!;)

Bananaman · 02-03-2010 08:01PM

Sparks wrote: »

The problem is that that can be taken to the point where your wallet decides your national team place, not your ability - and at that line, you go from sport to hobby.

It is not a case that people can buy a place on the national squad but at least you have a pool to choose from - as long as you wait for the exchequer to pay for it you never will.

Sparks wrote: »

I've seen some international matches run on that basis and it makes all your national teams into a joke when it happens, not just for that one event. The national badge isn't something we should let that happen to.

Are you talking about wildcard spots like the Bobsleigh?.

Sparks wrote: »

The money came from our pockets, I'd rather it went to sending juniors abroad to the world championships than to lining a ministerial merc's seat....

You can rather all you like :-).

B'Man

Bananaman · 02-03-2010 08:10PM

FLOYDSTER wrote: »

PMSL!!, so if I practice at my range every day for the next year I will be picked for a world cup??
Would I not have to shoot some kind of comps, or go through some kind of selection or prove to someone somewhere I can actually shoot??

I think I'll cancel my trips to IOM,Plzen,Hanover and Bisley, save all that money and practice at Comber instead!!;)

ISSF as a discipline is lucky that it can be practiced at home - therefore you should do it.
Sure you may not be able to hold European Championships here but you can have an inter club competition season. Rather than feel down about the costs incolved in travelling abroad to practice or compete why not try to have more competition here. Perhaps you will not manage to get the same scores you can in the IOM or wherever but at least you will know if you are the best in Ireland before you do go to an international.

Unless you get more support for the sport in more clubs you will never be able to - If there are only 10 or 20 people shooting the sport with only a dozen people taking part in the National Finals how do you ever expect to get the state to fund it. There were over 100 competitors at an NASRPC shoot in Hilltop a couple of weeks back - state funding? Not a sausage.

Look at IPSC - I'm not sure what the competitor numbers were like at the peak but it was over 100. There were competitions with 70 or so people taking part. We do have the facilities in Ireland to hold major internationals such as the European Championships but we are no longer allowed to practice, never mind hold the competitions.
Irish people are not just having to travel overseas to practice or compete but are forced to do so.

Count you blessings and put them to use.

My 2c.

B'Man

xesse · 02-03-2010 08:16PM

YEA

Sparks · 02-03-2010 09:22PM

Bananaman wrote: »

It is not a case that people can buy a place on the national squad

...today. It was not always so, from what I've been told.

Are you talking about wildcard spots like the Bobsleigh?

No, I'm talking about some past international trips. They're almost a decade in the past however, so I'm not going into specifics; but they did damage us (all of us) in the ISC's eyes at the time, not to mention in the eyes of those abroad, hence the depth of feeling towards avoiding such a situation recurring amongst many.

You can rather all you like :-)

Indeed, but unless you go looking for it as well, rathering is a rather useless use of time...

ISSF as a discipline is lucky that it can be practiced at home

So long as your home is an authorised range...
(Like I've said before, the criminal justice acts damaged all of us)

Sure you may not be able to hold European Championships here

Or in the UK or in any but a handful of international, highly expensive ranges. An ISSF continental championships isn't just one step up from a national championships, any more than the North Atlantic is a small step up from the local swimming pool -- and I don't think too many people ever really get the magnitude of that step

There were over 100 competitors at an NASRPC shoot in Hilltop a couple of weeks back - state funding? Not a sausage.

Look at IPSC - I'm not sure what the competitor numbers were like at the peak but it was over 100.

In both cases, though:
istockphoto_6275809-chalk-and-cheese-happily-shaking-hands.jpg

Bananaman · 03-03-2010 09:27AM

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but It is obvious that what is being done is not working os there needs to be changesN- the old ways don't cut it - some new thinking is called for

funding for target shooting cut
successful and popular forms of target shooting prohibited
less successful and less popular forms of target shooting lauded but doomed as they require funding which is not available
major attack on target shooting by Garda/doj through licensing system
what was already a minority sport made smaller

all sports MUST start as hobbies - only a tiny percentage of those that take part in a sport will ever have any major success - locally - and only a tiny percentage of those will ever taste success - internationally - but that still leaves the vast majority still plugging away in their own local clubs content to be competitive with their mates - and I was talking about golf (soon to be an Olympic sport) but the same applies to target shooting

regardsless of what people were told and whY they said or did to get us where we are today - we all got screwed - so we should make sure that target shooing (not just some choice cuts of it) florish - if for no other reason then just do it for pure spite - that one hasn't been tried yet - might work

B'Man

the old 'chalk and cheese' adage won't cut it any more - what we need is a chalky cheese
the same with the the way target shooting disciplines isolate themselves from each other - it is patently doing them no good - smacks of the 'vote for us because we're not them' school of politics

B'Man

xesse · 03-03-2010 08:42PM

i agree man....

( - so we should make sure that target shooing (not just some choice cuts of it) florish - )
so i will tell you when the next airpistol match is on and you can come and compete with me
there,s only 7 or 8 competitors so you,ll be somewhere in the top 10:D:D:D

Bananaman wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but It is obvious that what is being done is not working os there needs to be changesN- the old ways don't cut it - some new thinking is called for

funding for target shooting cut
successful and popular forms of target shooting prohibited
less successful and less popular forms of target shooting lauded but doomed as they require funding which is not available
major attack on target shooting by Garda/doj through licensing system
what was already a minority sport made smaller

all sports MUST start as hobbies - only a tiny percentage of those that take part in a sport will ever have any major success - locally - and only a tiny percentage of those will ever taste success - internationally - but that still leaves the vast majority still plugging away in their own local clubs content to be competitive with their mates - and I was talking about golf (soon to be an Olympic sport) but the same applies to target shooting

regardsless of what people were told and whY they said or did to get us where we are today - we all got screwed - so we should make sure that target shooing (not just some choice cuts of it) florish - if for no other reason then just do it for pure spite - that one hasn't been tried yet - might work

B'Man

the old 'chalk and cheese' adage won't cut it any more - what we need is a chalky cheese
the same with the the way target shooting disciplines isolate themselves from each other - it is patently doing them no good - smacks of the 'vote for us because we're not them' school of politics

B'Man

04-03-2010 08:41PM

To be honest, most people here would either have my contact details or would know someone with them.

I was talking to people before about getting air and smallbore training set up and I even went as far as to put some people on this board in contact with people who were willing to coach smallbore. I got some air sessions sorted, they were great and there are more coming.

I'm more then happy to help people organise training, however, I will draw the line at people just sitting back and expecting to spoonfed.

There are lots of people looking for training, there are some people who are both qualified and willing to coach. There are ranges who are happy to let us train there.
We aren't facing insurmountable problems and we can organise high level training.

If you want, drop me a text, pm or email and we'll see if we can sync up and get something organised.

If you want to bitch and moan, thats fine too. At the end of the day, it comes down to time spent on ranges which is something that personally I, through nothing more then sheer laziness haven't been doing enough of. A collective kick in the arse and some regular training can't be anything but good for shooting here.

ETA: I'm not posting here as a member of any national body or club, just as an individual.

FLOYDSTER · 05-03-2010 12:07AM

Nice one!, some kind of group training would be good!, not only a kick up the a$$ for us all but a great way to swap knowledge and get to know our fellow shooters!!;)

Kryten · 05-03-2010 01:40AM

It would be great if we could do this for pistol sometime. I know there is only a few of us, but we are only guessing and going on internet advice at the moment as regards training.

rrpc · 05-03-2010 10:34AM

Kryten wrote: »

It would be great if we could do this for pistol sometime. I know there is only a few of us, but we are only guessing and going on internet advice at the moment as regards training.

Working towards it. Have a couple of options that we need to explore, but it WILL happen.

Watch the NTSA and Rathdrum websites for announcements.

Kryten · 05-03-2010 03:46PM

Thats sound RRPC, Could'nt make the last comp. Old man is not well at the moment..

rrpc · 05-03-2010 07:08PM

Kryten wrote: »

Thats sound RRPC, Could'nt make the last comp. Old man is not well at the moment..

Sorry to hear that Kryten, give him our regards and best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Can someone tell me??.... smallbore

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