Heavy Rain plot holes major spoilers

Roar · 03-03-2010 01:09AM #1

Thought I'd start a thread for all the glaring plot holes that occur throughout the game. Obviously, there's going to be major spoilers in this thread, so if you haven't finished the game then stop reading!!!

I'll kick off in the next post

Roar · 03-03-2010 01:14AM

The most glaring one for me is shelby killing the clock repair dude. What the hell like. You're in control of shelby at the time ffs. Showing a cut scene of him killing the dude was such lazy writing. It was just so..... Convenient. I hated it. If that was in a movie I'd be screming at the screen. Ugh. Any more?

johnny_ultimate · 03-03-2010 02:50AM

Roar wrote: »

The most glaring one for me is shelby killing the clock repair dude. What the hell like. You're in control of shelby at the time ffs. Showing a cut scene of him killing the dude was such lazy writing. It was just so..... Convenient. I hated it. If that was in a movie I'd be screming at the screen. Ugh. Any more?

Yup that kind of annoyed me. The one kind of twist I hate is one that lies to the viewer outright. It is one thing witholding important facts to spring a surprise, but showing the viewer (or more infuriatingly in this case the player) something then going 'oh, that didn't actually happen' is a cheap trick. A good twist makes sense if you go back and revisit earlier sequences. Here, it doesn't really.

That said, it did also somewhat get to me that there were so many contrived ways of hiding the killers name in scenes. Meant to build up suspense, but much of the dialogue seemed very contrived as they weren't able to use Scott's name. Are we honestly to believe his brother didn't say his name once until the most dramatically appropriate moment?

I don't know, I liked the game a lot, but these are the kind of writing tricks which would be laughed at if it were a film. I appreciate doing something like this as a game, but fixing such things would help the game feel more natural and impressive.

Also: did anyone think the police were a little too lax when people died :pac: C'mon, if an FBI agent throws someone under a bulldozer, there'd surely be a little bit of paperwork.

gloobag · 03-03-2010 09:42AM

Can someone explain to me why Shelby was harassing the rich guys son? And why the rich guy was leaving flowers on John Shepherds grave?

Maybe it would've been explained if I'd made different choices, but it made no sense in my play through.

Creamy Goodness · 03-03-2010 09:55AM

gloobag wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why Shelby was harassing the rich guys son? And why the rich guy was leaving flowers on John Shepherds grave?

Maybe it would've been explained if I'd made different choices, but it made no sense in my play through.

Rich guy owned the construction site where John died.

humanji · 03-03-2010 10:12AM

gloobag wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why Shelby was harassing the rich guys son? And why the rich guy was leaving flowers on John Shepherds grave?

Maybe it would've been explained if I'd made different choices, but it made no sense in my play through.

The way I see it is that Shelby was nuts and felt he was justified in killing people. But the rich guys son killed just for the he'll of it, which Shelby did see as wrong. Also, the son could have made a good fallguy.

Oddly enough, the lack of paperwork got to me too, but I don't really want to spend several hours mimicking filling out reports with the controler

RAIN · 03-03-2010 10:28AM

When Madison and Ethan are in the warehouse and escape is riddled with plot holes....

she arrived on a motor bike that could easily have been tracked back to her esp cus she was seen arriving on it and escaped without it!

Jayden could also have used ARI to find all sorts of stuff going back to her, not to mention traces of blood going all the way upstairs to a recording the real killer had left!!!

Also when Ethan escapes from the police station if you turn off the camera nothing is mentioned about the escape afterwards.

Even with these I really enjoyed it.

Roar · 03-03-2010 11:41AM

why does madison react with such horror when she's told shelby's name by his mother? she hadn't even met the dude, she had no idea who he was!

NotorietyH · 03-03-2010 12:00PM

Roar wrote: »

why does madison react with such horror when she's told shelby's name by his mother? she hadn't even met the dude, she had no idea who he was!

Nearly everything Madison does doesn't make sense :P She was the most poorly handled character I thought. At times the way they handled the plot and characters, especially in realtion to her, was really juvenile.

The biggest annoyance is that when you hold the L2 button to hear what they're thinking some characters ie Scott and Madison who are hiding their true motives, are thinking things that are completely inconsistent with the truth. LIke Madison thinking she has to help 'this guy' because she doesn't really have a choice. No, she knows who he is, and knows exactly why she's helping him. That stuff annoys me. Still enjoyed the game though.

GothPunk · 03-03-2010 12:03PM

Is Shelby killing the antique merchant really a plot hole? I mean there's an entire part where the camera isn't on you, it's on Lauren looking at a music box - both we the player and Lauren have their eyes off Shelby for about 15-20 seconds, which is about as long as I think it took Shelby to kill the old guy. You are not in control of Shelby the whole time. I think it's fantastic as you play the end of the scene cleaning up all the fingerprints to make sure the police don't suspect you were there and you were the bloody killer all along! Shelby's thoughts at the time are all related to where he left prints - not one about the death of his 'friend', in retrospect that should have raised suspicions in me.

Roar wrote: »

why does madison react with such horror when she's told shelby's name by his mother? she hadn't even met the dude, she had no idea who he was!

This is the one that sticks out to me, unless during certain playthroughs Madison meets him or has heard of him from someone. Perhaps we're supposed to believe that she does know who he is, considering she goes straight to his apartment and she doesn't have any thoughts about looking him up.

This isn't a plot hole but I thought it was funny when I was playing as Ethan, I cut off his finger with the hatchet during The Lizard trial but then when I chose to kill the drug dealer he had his finger back! Then after that scene he was missing his finger again, heh!

RAIN · 03-03-2010 12:16PM

GothPunk wrote: »

Is Shelby killing the antique merchant really a plot hole? I mean there's an entire part where the camera isn't on you, it's on Lauren looking at a music box - both we the player and Lauren have their eyes off Shelby for about 15-20 seconds, which is about as long as I think it took Shelby to kill the old guy. You are not in control of Shelby the whole time. I think it's fantastic as you play the end of the scene cleaning up all the fingerprints to make sure the police don't suspect you were there and you were the bloody killer all along! Shelby's thoughts at the time are all related to where he left prints - not one about the death of his 'friend', in retrospect that should have raised suspicions in me.

This is the one that sticks out to me, unless during certain playthroughs Madison meets him or has heard of him from someone. Perhaps we're supposed to believe that she does know who he is, considering she goes straight to his apartment and she doesn't have any thoughts about looking him up.

This isn't a plot hole but I thought it was funny when I was playing as Ethan, I cut off his finger with the hatchet during The Lizard trial but then when I chose to kill the drug dealer he had his finger back! Then after that scene he was missing his finger again, heh!

I agree

I was more annoyed at the Madison being a Journo thing. Your not in control of Shelby for a few minutes so for me it works, even if just barely. I loved the fact that you spent your time as Shelby cleaning up his tracks.

Something else just came to me. What the hell was the story with the shop owners box?? Was he father that just didn't do anything? Or is this another hole?

Roar · 03-03-2010 12:28PM

GothPunk wrote: »

Is Shelby killing the antique merchant really a plot hole? I mean there's an entire part where the camera isn't on you, it's on Lauren looking at a music box - both we the player and Lauren have their eyes off Shelby for about 15-20 seconds, which is about as long as I think it took Shelby to kill the old guy. You are not in control of Shelby the whole time. I think it's fantastic as you play the end of the scene cleaning up all the fingerprints to make sure the police don't suspect you were there and you were the bloody killer all along! Shelby's thoughts at the time are all related to where he left prints - not one about the death of his 'friend', in retrospect that should have raised suspicions in me.

perhaps.. but why phone the cops on himself? i know it's a plot device designed to throw you off the scent, but still..

the scene where i kinda twigged the killer was shelby was when he appeared really hesitant to cross check the origami subscribers with what's her face..

NotorietyH · 03-03-2010 12:40PM

The more you start to ananlyse the plot, the more it starts to sound like Charlie Kaufman's brother's script from Adaptation. The 3, where the cop is chasing a killer who has kidnapped a woman only the cop IS the killer and IS also the victim. He's got multiple personalities. Unfortunately that makes more sense than some of the stuff in Heavy Rain!

GothPunk · 03-03-2010 12:48PM

RAIN wrote: »

Something else just came to me. What the hell was the story with the shop owners box?? Was he father that just didn't do anything? Or is this another hole?

Yes I think he was just a father that didn't do anything. He says that he didn't really understand what it meant or something like that, right?

Roar wrote: »

perhaps.. but why phone the cops on himself? i know it's a plot device designed to throw you off the scent, but still..

the scene where i kinda twigged the killer was shelby was when he appeared really hesitant to cross check the origami subscribers with what's her face..

I think he needed to phone the cops to trick Lauren. If he hadn't done that I think the most natural response from her upon seeing the dead body would be 'OMG Scott wtf happened?! Call the cops!' It also means that his 'Hey let's go clean up after ourselves' charade is less suspicious to her. Yes this entire scene is designed to trick us but it's also designed to trick Lauren.

I think with Heavy Rain people are calling things plot holes that aren't really, they just require a little mulling over. You have to remember this was made by French people so they want to be arty farty and not hand you everything on a plate, they want you to do some work and come to your own conclusion about why the character did something. :pac: It is easier to just call 'plot hole' though I guess.

*Tongue firmly in cheek by the way*

NotorietyH wrote: »

The more you start to ananlyse the plot, the more it starts to sound like Charlie Kaufman's brother's script from Adaptation. The 3, where the cop is chasing a killer who has kidnapped a woman only the cop IS the killer and IS also the victim. He's got multiple personalities. Unfortunately that makes more sense than some of the stuff in Heavy Rain!

I'm interested to hear what plot holes you think there are as I read you say it in another thread but you didn't elaborate. I know you're a movie buff so I bet you've got some good ones!

The thing that I think is great now that I'm playing as evil Shelby (as in I'm letting everyone he comes into contact die and making sure I get the evidence to eventually destroy it) is when you listen to his thoughts. They're all perfectly in character for both your first playthrough when you think he's good and another playthrough where you know he's the killer. He's always focused on getting the evidence or saving his own skin. Never does he think "I've got to catch this killer to save that kid", he only ever says this out loud when he's manipulating people. So I think it's unfair to say Scott has multiple personalities, when you know he's the killer it makes perfect sense that he was speaking with witnesses, as he wants to tie up any loose ends culminating with the scene where he burns everything. His mother also says that he never visits her, but we see a scene where he is there with her. Is it just her Alzheimer's that makes her think he never visits, or in reality has he never visited? When you speak to the nurse she has no recollection of a visitor, yet we know Scott did visit her at least once, perhaps recently in terms of the storyline. Perhaps he goes there to kill his mother but leaves thinking (wrongly) that she could never connect him to the Origami Killer case?

I thought of another plot hole that I didn't appreciate - when Jayden is attacked in Paco's private room, the attacker is supposed to be Scott yet he's not a portly man. Perhaps he's wearing a compression cummerbund or something? :pac:

Roar · 03-03-2010 12:56PM

GothPunk wrote: »

I think with Heavy Rain people are calling things plot holes that aren't really, they just require a little mulling over. You have to remember this was made by French people so they want to be arty farty and not hand you everything on a plate, they want you to do some work and come to your own conclusion about why the character did something. :pac: It is easier to just call 'plot hole' though I guess.

*Tongue firmly in cheek by the way*

yeah, perhaps.

thought of another plot hole/thing that needs mulling over. how did a fat bastard like shelby cover 100s of metres of narrow, cramped ventilation with broken glass? and not get lost/have to go over broken glass himself?

Burning Eclipse · 03-03-2010 12:57PM

Roar wrote: »

The most glaring one for me is shelby killing the clock repair dude. What the hell like. You're in control of shelby at the time ffs. Showing a cut scene of him killing the dude was such lazy writing. It was just so..... Convenient. I hated it. If that was in a movie I'd be screming at the screen. Ugh. Any more?

This is the only part of the game that I felt let down by... in a big way in fact

Roar wrote: »

why does madison react with such horror when she's told shelby's name by his mother? she hadn't even met the dude, she had no idea who he was!

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that a journalist investigating this case would be aware of a PI also working on it.

GothPunk · 03-03-2010 01:07PM

Roar wrote: »

yeah, perhaps.

thought of another plot hole/thing that needs mulling over. how did a fat bastard like shelby cover 100s of metres of narrow, cramped ventilation with broken glass? and not get lost/have to go over broken glass himself?

I think it's likely that Scott uses the same places as trials for each father, as he was actually renting the pace where the Lizard Trial takes place. If he was going to use the power station over and over again it's possible that he would take the time necessary to rig that whole obstacle course up. It's not that hard to smash lots of glass and glue it down, people do it to the tops of perimeter walls in this country all the time. I don't think Scott was too fat to have done it, the tunnel wasn't that narrow.

Burning Eclipse wrote:

This is the only part of the game that I felt let down by... in a big way in fact

What do you think of my explanation then, not convincing?

NotorietyH · 03-03-2010 01:11PM

GothPunk wrote: »

I think with Heavy Rain people are calling things plot holes that aren't really, they just require a little mulling over. You have to remember this was made by French people so they want to be arty farty and not hand you everything on a plate, they want you to do some work and come to your own conclusion about why the character did something. :pac: It is easier to just call 'plot hole' though I guess.

Most of it is just lazy lazy writing though. Having Madison react in a shocked way to hearing Scott's name was to make you think it was in fact Ethan. But no, then you have to go back and come up with reasons for yourself why she may have known possibly who Scott was. They decide what information they want to give you in the scene and which way they want to direct you or trick you. Yes some of the stuff aren't exactly plot holes, but some is. A lot of it feels just crowbarred in for the sake of it, and to deliberately trick you, without the having the truth of a situation play out in a realistic and believable way. It doesn't take away from the game, all it does is make it more of a cheesy thriller than a drama which they were aiming for. There's no way in hell this is an effective drama, but it's a very effective thriller. It's like a schlocky airport thriller novel rather than something a bit more weighty, which is fine.

A lot of the character work is far too shallow to call it anything else though. If a movie introduced a character in a dream sequence, and not only that, but a shower scene, I'd have to scramble around on the ground looking for my eyes as they'd have fallen out of my head I'd have been rolling them so much. Then have the character been largely useless for th emost part only to fall in love with the hero after spending all of a few hours with him? Add in a trip to the psychiatrist for the main character and you have a nice big dollop of cliches. Which is fine, I enjoyed the hell out of the game, but it didn't make me sit down and reflect on life and loss like David Cage intended.

NotorietyH · 03-03-2010 01:13PM

Burning Eclipse wrote: »

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that a journalist investigating this case would be aware of a PI also working on it.

Do you not think she would have investigated a bit further and found out that no one had actually hired him then? it's just lazy writing.

EDIT: Oops sorry for double post.

Mitch Connor · 03-03-2010 01:13PM

Why does Ethan have blackouts that result in him 'waking up' miles away and holding origami figues?

When escaping the motel, why are the cops so bloody useless. You fall backwards off the roof, cream yourself, step out infront of a taxi, car jack it and drive off, all without the visible swap/cop guys 20 FEET AWAY doing nothing. Hell, Blake manages to get down from the roof quicker than they react.

Why does Madison drive her bike in crazy directions before going into the warehouse, and why does this confuse the cops?

Why do the cops just believe Shelby 'just happened to be there' when the store guy 'bought it'.

Considering no one had coped on to the letters address issue (with the typewriter) why the hell did Shelby go there in the first place, to kill the guy for the fun of it?

NotorietyH · 03-03-2010 01:16PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Why does Ethan have blackouts that result in him 'waking up' miles away and holding origami figues?

Oh God yeah, how did I forget that biggest example of lazy, ill-thought out writing. Just put that in there to make us think it's Ethan, then not even bother trying to explain it in the end. Sure the audience will come up with a way to rationalize it themselves, we don't need to.

Mitch Connor · 03-03-2010 01:18PM

GothPunk wrote: »

I think it's likely that Scott uses the same places as trials for each father, as he was actually renting the pace where the Lizard Trial takes place. If he was going to use the power station over and over again it's possible that he would take the time necessary to rig that whole obstacle course up. It's not that hard to smash lots of glass and glue it down, people do it to the tops of perimeter walls in this country all the time. I don't think Scott was too fat to have done it, the tunnel wasn't that narrow.

But he is ment to have done it in every direction, how did he manage it without glassing himself into a corner? And the thing was just about big enough for Ethan to get through (with trouble cause he has the agility of wood)

Mitch Connor · 03-03-2010 01:23PM

here are some plot holes.

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/heavy-rains-big-plot-holes/a-20100224105436979020

RAIN · 03-03-2010 01:23PM

Oh Yeah, the blackouts. I was FULL sure that the shrink was the killer and he was responsible for all that stuff. I was wrong but yeah where the hell did the Origami things come out of?

Burning Eclipse · 03-03-2010 01:25PM

NotorietyH wrote: »

Do you not think she would have investigated a bit further and found out that no one had actually hired him then? it's just lazy writing.

EDIT: Oops sorry for double post.

A fair point. But I think it's designed so you can believe what you want to with regard to that element of the game.

GothPunk wrote: »

What do you think of my explanation then, not convincing?

Actually tbh, it is convincing. I'm going to have to replay that chapter again... perhaps tonight in fact.

This is certainly a hot topic

Roar · 03-03-2010 01:25PM

RAIN wrote: »

Oh Yeah, the blackouts. I was FULL sure that the shrink was the killer and he was responsible for all that stuff. I was wrong but yeah where the hell did the Origami things come out of?

shelby was following him and put them in his hand is about the only thing i can think of..

GothPunk · 03-03-2010 01:29PM

NotorietyH wrote: »

Most of it is just lazy lazy writing though. Having Madison react in a shocked way to hearing Scott's name was to make you think it was in fact Ethan. But no, then you have to go back and come up with reasons for yourself why she may have known possibly who Scott was. They decide what information they want to give you in the scene and which way they want to direct you or trick you. Yes some of the stuff aren't exactly plot holes, but some is. A lot of it feels just crowbarred in for the sake of it, and to deliberately trick you, without the having the truth of a situation play out in a realistic and believable way. It doesn't take away from the game, all it does is make it more of a cheesy thriller than a drama which they were aiming for. There's no way in hell this is an effective drama, but it's a very effective thriller. It's like a schlocky airport thriller novel rather than something a bit more weighty, which is fine.

A lot of the character work is far too shallow to call it anything else though. If a movie introduced a character in a dream sequence, and not only that, but a shower scene, I'd have to scramble around on the ground looking for my eyes as they'd have fallen out of my head I'd have been rolling them so much. Then have the character been largely useless for th emost part only to fall in love with the hero after spending all of a few hours with him? Add in a trip to the psychiatrist for the main character and you have a nice big dollop of cliches. Which is fine, I enjoyed the hell out of the game, but it didn't make me sit down and reflect on life and loss like David Cage intended.

I completely agree, I just think it's unfair that some people are calling things plot holes that aren't, especially when they just forgot part of a scene or remembered something wrong. It's more M. Night Shamalayan than David Fincher. To me I think you're criticising the game for the right reasons - if David Cage wants to put games out there as a medium for proper drama than they will be held to the same standard as a good drama. As a credit to him though even though it was a bit cheesy I did really feel for the characters at times, especially Ethan.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Why does Ethan have blackouts that result in him 'waking up' miles away and holding origami figues?

I think it explains this in the scene with the therapist. Ethan is so distraught about the death of Jason and feeling that he is to blame, he gets blackouts. As he feels to blame for that it's a not big jump to blaming himself for the Origami killings. It's common for people to break down emotionally when their kid dies.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

When escaping the motel, why are the cops so bloody useless. You fall backwards off the roof, cream yourself, step out infront of a taxi, car jack it and drive off, all without the visible swap/cop guys 20 FEET AWAY doing nothing. Hell, Blake manages to get down from the roof quicker than they react.

That's just your standard thriller stuff that requires a bit of suspension of disbelief. You could say the same thing about The Fugitive or any other number of films where the cops are portrayed as unrealistically incompetent. That's not really a plot hole.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Considering no one had coped on to the letters address issue (with the typewriter) why the hell did Shelby go there in the first place, to kill the guy for the fun of it?

He went there to make sure that he couldn't be tied to the Origami killings. He was being thorough, like all good serial killers are.

Mitch Connor · 03-03-2010 01:33PM

also, regarding the blackouts, how much of a douche is Ethan?

You have one blackout where you could have lost your son or at the least put him in danger by leaving him in the house alone of an indeterminate length of time, and you tell NO ONE apart from your shrink?

You already blame youself for one kid dying (that kid was a moron by the way) and you do absolutely nothing about such a dangerous incident, and it leads either directly or indirectly to your second kid going missing (who has all the emotion of an emo kid doing something no one would car about to begin with..... "help me dad, i'm, like, getting wet and stuff)

Social services should have been all over him after that crap, regardless of him cutting his finger off.

Burning Eclipse · 03-03-2010 01:34PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

here are some plot holes.

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/heavy-rains-big-plot-holes/a-20100224105436979020

Read that before. While I agree that the writing and plot in Heavy Rain don't match the likes of Seven (a film I adore), I think that article picks on some elements just for the sake of it to be fair.

GothPunk · 03-03-2010 01:36PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But he is ment to have done it in every direction, how did he manage it without glassing himself into a corner? And the thing was just about big enough for Ethan to get through (with trouble cause he has the agility of wood)

Very simply actually, you fill up the dead ends first and then you start at the entrance and move backwards. It's not a plot hole, it's the game requiring a bit of suspension of disbelief. Films do it all the time - it's a fantastical story so naturally there will be a few fantastical elements to it. Ethan doesn't barely fit in the tunnel, his has enough room to turn around quite comfortably if you ever go down a dead end.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Social services should have been all over him after that crap, regardless of him cutting his finger off.

Exactly, he wouldn't have told anyone as they may have taken his kid away from him. I think after loosing one kid he didn't want to loose custody of the other. He's not a robot, he's supposed to be an emotionally fragile character.

Mitch Connor · 03-03-2010 01:37PM

GothPunk wrote: »

I think it explains this in the scene with the therapist. Ethan is so distraught about the death of Jason and feeling that he is to blame, he gets blackouts. As he feels to blame for that it's a not big jump to blaming himself for the Origami killings. It's common for people to break down emotionally when their kid dies.

Indeed, it explains the blackouts themselves, but why the origami. Did he learn to do it at blackout classes? The origami figures may not be a plot hole, but it is cheap writing at least.

GothPunk wrote: »

He went there to make sure that he couldn't be tied to the Origami killings. He was being thorough, like all good serial killers are.

Being thorough, 3 years later. Maybe if he didn't use the name John Sheperd to suscribe to origami mags, and rent houses, and get typewriters fixed, he might be in a better situation...

Heavy Rain plot holes *major spoilers*

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Heavy Rain plot holes major spoilers