Heavy Rain plot holes *major spoilers*

Roar

Thought I'd start a thread for all the glaring plot holes that occur throughout the game. Obviously, there's going to be major spoilers in this thread, so if you haven't finished the game then stop reading!!!

I'll kick off in the next post

Roar

The most glaring one for me is shelby killing the clock repair dude. What the hell like. You're in control of shelby at the time ffs. Showing a cut scene of him killing the dude was such lazy writing. It was just so..... Convenient. I hated it. If that was in a movie I'd be screming at the screen. Ugh. Any more?

johnny_ultimate

Roar wrote: »

The most glaring one for me is shelby killing the clock repair dude. What the hell like. You're in control of shelby at the time ffs. Showing a cut scene of him killing the dude was such lazy writing. It was just so..... Convenient. I hated it. If that was in a movie I'd be screming at the screen. Ugh. Any more?

Yup that kind of annoyed me. The one kind of twist I hate is one that lies to the viewer outright. It is one thing witholding important facts to spring a surprise, but showing the viewer (or more infuriatingly in this case the player) something then going 'oh, that didn't actually happen' is a cheap trick. A good twist makes sense if you go back and revisit earlier sequences. Here, it doesn't really.

That said, it did also somewhat get to me that there were so many contrived ways of hiding the killers name in scenes. Meant to build up suspense, but much of the dialogue seemed very contrived as they weren't able to use Scott's name. Are we honestly to believe his brother didn't say his name once until the most dramatically appropriate moment?

I don't know, I liked the game a lot, but these are the kind of writing tricks which would be laughed at if it were a film. I appreciate doing something like this as a game, but fixing such things would help the game feel more natural and impressive.

Also: did anyone think the police were a little too lax when people died :pac: C'mon, if an FBI agent throws someone under a bulldozer, there'd surely be a little bit of paperwork.

gloobag

Can someone explain to me why Shelby was harassing the rich guys son? And why the rich guy was leaving flowers on John Shepherds grave?

Maybe it would've been explained if I'd made different choices, but it made no sense in my play through.

Creamy Goodness

gloobag wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why Shelby was harassing the rich guys son? And why the rich guy was leaving flowers on John Shepherds grave?

Maybe it would've been explained if I'd made different choices, but it made no sense in my play through.

Rich guy owned the construction site where John died.

humanji

gloobag wrote: »

Can someone explain to me why Shelby was harassing the rich guys son? And why the rich guy was leaving flowers on John Shepherds grave?

Maybe it would've been explained if I'd made different choices, but it made no sense in my play through.

The way I see it is that Shelby was nuts and felt he was justified in killing people. But the rich guys son killed just for the he'll of it, which Shelby did see as wrong. Also, the son could have made a good fallguy.

Oddly enough, the lack of paperwork got to me too, but I don't really want to spend several hours mimicking filling out reports with the controler

RAIN

When Madison and Ethan are in the warehouse and escape is riddled with plot holes....

she arrived on a motor bike that could easily have been tracked back to her esp cus she was seen arriving on it and escaped without it!

Jayden could also have used ARI to find all sorts of stuff going back to her, not to mention traces of blood going all the way upstairs to a recording the real killer had left!!!

Also when Ethan escapes from the police station if you turn off the camera nothing is mentioned about the escape afterwards.

Even with these I really enjoyed it.

Roar

why does madison react with such horror when she's told shelby's name by his mother? she hadn't even met the dude, she had no idea who he was!

NotorietyH

Roar wrote: »

why does madison react with such horror when she's told shelby's name by his mother? she hadn't even met the dude, she had no idea who he was!

Nearly everything Madison does doesn't make sense :P She was the most poorly handled character I thought. At times the way they handled the plot and characters, especially in realtion to her, was really juvenile.

The biggest annoyance is that when you hold the L2 button to hear what they're thinking some characters ie Scott and Madison who are hiding their true motives, are thinking things that are completely inconsistent with the truth. LIke Madison thinking she has to help 'this guy' because she doesn't really have a choice. No, she knows who he is, and knows exactly why she's helping him. That stuff annoys me. Still enjoyed the game though.

GothPunk

Is Shelby killing the antique merchant really a plot hole? I mean there's an entire part where the camera isn't on you, it's on Lauren looking at a music box - both we the player and Lauren have their eyes off Shelby for about 15-20 seconds, which is about as long as I think it took Shelby to kill the old guy. You are not in control of Shelby the whole time. I think it's fantastic as you play the end of the scene cleaning up all the fingerprints to make sure the police don't suspect you were there and you were the bloody killer all along! Shelby's thoughts at the time are all related to where he left prints - not one about the death of his 'friend', in retrospect that should have raised suspicions in me.

Roar wrote: »

why does madison react with such horror when she's told shelby's name by his mother? she hadn't even met the dude, she had no idea who he was!

This is the one that sticks out to me, unless during certain playthroughs Madison meets him or has heard of him from someone. Perhaps we're supposed to believe that she does know who he is, considering she goes straight to his apartment and she doesn't have any thoughts about looking him up.

This isn't a plot hole but I thought it was funny when I was playing as Ethan, I cut off his finger with the hatchet during The Lizard trial but then when I chose to kill the drug dealer he had his finger back! Then after that scene he was missing his finger again, heh!

RAIN

GothPunk wrote: »

Is Shelby killing the antique merchant really a plot hole? I mean there's an entire part where the camera isn't on you, it's on Lauren looking at a music box - both we the player and Lauren have their eyes off Shelby for about 15-20 seconds, which is about as long as I think it took Shelby to kill the old guy. You are not in control of Shelby the whole time. I think it's fantastic as you play the end of the scene cleaning up all the fingerprints to make sure the police don't suspect you were there and you were the bloody killer all along! Shelby's thoughts at the time are all related to where he left prints - not one about the death of his 'friend', in retrospect that should have raised suspicions in me.

This is the one that sticks out to me, unless during certain playthroughs Madison meets him or has heard of him from someone. Perhaps we're supposed to believe that she does know who he is, considering she goes straight to his apartment and she doesn't have any thoughts about looking him up.

This isn't a plot hole but I thought it was funny when I was playing as Ethan, I cut off his finger with the hatchet during The Lizard trial but then when I chose to kill the drug dealer he had his finger back! Then after that scene he was missing his finger again, heh!

I agree

I was more annoyed at the Madison being a Journo thing. Your not in control of Shelby for a few minutes so for me it works, even if just barely. I loved the fact that you spent your time as Shelby cleaning up his tracks.

Something else just came to me. What the hell was the story with the shop owners box?? Was he father that just didn't do anything? Or is this another hole?

Roar

GothPunk wrote: »

Is Shelby killing the antique merchant really a plot hole? I mean there's an entire part where the camera isn't on you, it's on Lauren looking at a music box - both we the player and Lauren have their eyes off Shelby for about 15-20 seconds, which is about as long as I think it took Shelby to kill the old guy. You are not in control of Shelby the whole time. I think it's fantastic as you play the end of the scene cleaning up all the fingerprints to make sure the police don't suspect you were there and you were the bloody killer all along! Shelby's thoughts at the time are all related to where he left prints - not one about the death of his 'friend', in retrospect that should have raised suspicions in me.

perhaps.. but why phone the cops on himself? i know it's a plot device designed to throw you off the scent, but still..

the scene where i kinda twigged the killer was shelby was when he appeared really hesitant to cross check the origami subscribers with what's her face..

NotorietyH

The more you start to ananlyse the plot, the more it starts to sound like Charlie Kaufman's brother's script from Adaptation. The 3, where the cop is chasing a killer who has kidnapped a woman only the cop IS the killer and IS also the victim. He's got multiple personalities. Unfortunately that makes more sense than some of the stuff in Heavy Rain!

GothPunk

RAIN wrote: »

Something else just came to me. What the hell was the story with the shop owners box?? Was he father that just didn't do anything? Or is this another hole?

Yes I think he was just a father that didn't do anything. He says that he didn't really understand what it meant or something like that, right?

Roar wrote: »

perhaps.. but why phone the cops on himself? i know it's a plot device designed to throw you off the scent, but still..

the scene where i kinda twigged the killer was shelby was when he appeared really hesitant to cross check the origami subscribers with what's her face..

I think he needed to phone the cops to trick Lauren. If he hadn't done that I think the most natural response from her upon seeing the dead body would be 'OMG Scott wtf happened?! Call the cops!' It also means that his 'Hey let's go clean up after ourselves' charade is less suspicious to her. Yes this entire scene is designed to trick us but it's also designed to trick Lauren.

I think with Heavy Rain people are calling things plot holes that aren't really, they just require a little mulling over. You have to remember this was made by French people so they want to be arty farty and not hand you everything on a plate, they want you to do some work and come to your own conclusion about why the character did something. :pac: It is easier to just call 'plot hole' though I guess.

*Tongue firmly in cheek by the way*

NotorietyH wrote: »

The more you start to ananlyse the plot, the more it starts to sound like Charlie Kaufman's brother's script from Adaptation. The 3, where the cop is chasing a killer who has kidnapped a woman only the cop IS the killer and IS also the victim. He's got multiple personalities. Unfortunately that makes more sense than some of the stuff in Heavy Rain!

I'm interested to hear what plot holes you think there are as I read you say it in another thread but you didn't elaborate. I know you're a movie buff so I bet you've got some good ones!

The thing that I think is great now that I'm playing as evil Shelby (as in I'm letting everyone he comes into contact die and making sure I get the evidence to eventually destroy it) is when you listen to his thoughts. They're all perfectly in character for both your first playthrough when you think he's good and another playthrough where you know he's the killer. He's always focused on getting the evidence or saving his own skin. Never does he think "I've got to catch this killer to save that kid", he only ever says this out loud when he's manipulating people. So I think it's unfair to say Scott has multiple personalities, when you know he's the killer it makes perfect sense that he was speaking with witnesses, as he wants to tie up any loose ends culminating with the scene where he burns everything. His mother also says that he never visits her, but we see a scene where he is there with her. Is it just her Alzheimer's that makes her think he never visits, or in reality has he never visited? When you speak to the nurse she has no recollection of a visitor, yet we know Scott did visit her at least once, perhaps recently in terms of the storyline. Perhaps he goes there to kill his mother but leaves thinking (wrongly) that she could never connect him to the Origami Killer case?

I thought of another plot hole that I didn't appreciate - when Jayden is attacked in Paco's private room, the attacker is supposed to be Scott yet he's not a portly man. Perhaps he's wearing a compression cummerbund or something? :pac:

Roar

GothPunk wrote: »

I think with Heavy Rain people are calling things plot holes that aren't really, they just require a little mulling over. You have to remember this was made by French people so they want to be arty farty and not hand you everything on a plate, they want you to do some work and come to your own conclusion about why the character did something. :pac: It is easier to just call 'plot hole' though I guess.

*Tongue firmly in cheek by the way*

yeah, perhaps.

thought of another plot hole/thing that needs mulling over. how did a fat bastard like shelby cover 100s of metres of narrow, cramped ventilation with broken glass? and not get lost/have to go over broken glass himself?

Burning Eclipse

Roar wrote: »

The most glaring one for me is shelby killing the clock repair dude. What the hell like. You're in control of shelby at the time ffs. Showing a cut scene of him killing the dude was such lazy writing. It was just so..... Convenient. I hated it. If that was in a movie I'd be screming at the screen. Ugh. Any more?

This is the only part of the game that I felt let down by... in a big way in fact

Roar wrote: »

why does madison react with such horror when she's told shelby's name by his mother? she hadn't even met the dude, she had no idea who he was!

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that a journalist investigating this case would be aware of a PI also working on it.

GothPunk

Roar wrote: »

yeah, perhaps.

thought of another plot hole/thing that needs mulling over. how did a fat bastard like shelby cover 100s of metres of narrow, cramped ventilation with broken glass? and not get lost/have to go over broken glass himself?

I think it's likely that Scott uses the same places as trials for each father, as he was actually renting the pace where the Lizard Trial takes place. If he was going to use the power station over and over again it's possible that he would take the time necessary to rig that whole obstacle course up. It's not that hard to smash lots of glass and glue it down, people do it to the tops of perimeter walls in this country all the time. I don't think Scott was too fat to have done it, the tunnel wasn't that narrow.

Burning Eclipse wrote:

This is the only part of the game that I felt let down by... in a big way in fact

What do you think of my explanation then, not convincing?

NotorietyH

GothPunk wrote: »

I think with Heavy Rain people are calling things plot holes that aren't really, they just require a little mulling over. You have to remember this was made by French people so they want to be arty farty and not hand you everything on a plate, they want you to do some work and come to your own conclusion about why the character did something. :pac: It is easier to just call 'plot hole' though I guess.

Most of it is just lazy lazy writing though. Having Madison react in a shocked way to hearing Scott's name was to make you think it was in fact Ethan. But no, then you have to go back and come up with reasons for yourself why she may have known possibly who Scott was. They decide what information they want to give you in the scene and which way they want to direct you or trick you. Yes some of the stuff aren't exactly plot holes, but some is. A lot of it feels just crowbarred in for the sake of it, and to deliberately trick you, without the having the truth of a situation play out in a realistic and believable way. It doesn't take away from the game, all it does is make it more of a cheesy thriller than a drama which they were aiming for. There's no way in hell this is an effective drama, but it's a very effective thriller. It's like a schlocky airport thriller novel rather than something a bit more weighty, which is fine.

A lot of the character work is far too shallow to call it anything else though. If a movie introduced a character in a dream sequence, and not only that, but a shower scene, I'd have to scramble around on the ground looking for my eyes as they'd have fallen out of my head I'd have been rolling them so much. Then have the character been largely useless for th emost part only to fall in love with the hero after spending all of a few hours with him? Add in a trip to the psychiatrist for the main character and you have a nice big dollop of cliches. Which is fine, I enjoyed the hell out of the game, but it didn't make me sit down and reflect on life and loss like David Cage intended.

NotorietyH

Burning Eclipse wrote: »

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to believe that a journalist investigating this case would be aware of a PI also working on it.

Do you not think she would have investigated a bit further and found out that no one had actually hired him then? it's just lazy writing.

EDIT: Oops sorry for double post.

Mitch Connor

Why does Ethan have blackouts that result in him 'waking up' miles away and holding origami figues?

When escaping the motel, why are the cops so bloody useless. You fall backwards off the roof, cream yourself, step out infront of a taxi, car jack it and drive off, all without the visible swap/cop guys 20 FEET AWAY doing nothing. Hell, Blake manages to get down from the roof quicker than they react.

Why does Madison drive her bike in crazy directions before going into the warehouse, and why does this confuse the cops?

Why do the cops just believe Shelby 'just happened to be there' when the store guy 'bought it'.

Considering no one had coped on to the letters address issue (with the typewriter) why the hell did Shelby go there in the first place, to kill the guy for the fun of it?

NotorietyH

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Why does Ethan have blackouts that result in him 'waking up' miles away and holding origami figues?

Oh God yeah, how did I forget that biggest example of lazy, ill-thought out writing. Just put that in there to make us think it's Ethan, then not even bother trying to explain it in the end. Sure the audience will come up with a way to rationalize it themselves, we don't need to.

Mitch Connor

GothPunk wrote: »

I think it's likely that Scott uses the same places as trials for each father, as he was actually renting the pace where the Lizard Trial takes place. If he was going to use the power station over and over again it's possible that he would take the time necessary to rig that whole obstacle course up. It's not that hard to smash lots of glass and glue it down, people do it to the tops of perimeter walls in this country all the time. I don't think Scott was too fat to have done it, the tunnel wasn't that narrow.

But he is ment to have done it in every direction, how did he manage it without glassing himself into a corner? And the thing was just about big enough for Ethan to get through (with trouble cause he has the agility of wood)

Mitch Connor

here are some plot holes.

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/heavy-rains-big-plot-holes/a-20100224105436979020

RAIN

Oh Yeah, the blackouts. I was FULL sure that the shrink was the killer and he was responsible for all that stuff. I was wrong but yeah where the hell did the Origami things come out of?

Burning Eclipse

NotorietyH wrote: »

Do you not think she would have investigated a bit further and found out that no one had actually hired him then? it's just lazy writing.

EDIT: Oops sorry for double post.

A fair point. But I think it's designed so you can believe what you want to with regard to that element of the game.

GothPunk wrote: »

What do you think of my explanation then, not convincing?

Actually tbh, it is convincing. I'm going to have to replay that chapter again... perhaps tonight in fact.

This is certainly a hot topic

Roar

RAIN wrote: »

Oh Yeah, the blackouts. I was FULL sure that the shrink was the killer and he was responsible for all that stuff. I was wrong but yeah where the hell did the Origami things come out of?

shelby was following him and put them in his hand is about the only thing i can think of..

GothPunk

NotorietyH wrote: »

Most of it is just lazy lazy writing though. Having Madison react in a shocked way to hearing Scott's name was to make you think it was in fact Ethan. But no, then you have to go back and come up with reasons for yourself why she may have known possibly who Scott was. They decide what information they want to give you in the scene and which way they want to direct you or trick you. Yes some of the stuff aren't exactly plot holes, but some is. A lot of it feels just crowbarred in for the sake of it, and to deliberately trick you, without the having the truth of a situation play out in a realistic and believable way. It doesn't take away from the game, all it does is make it more of a cheesy thriller than a drama which they were aiming for. There's no way in hell this is an effective drama, but it's a very effective thriller. It's like a schlocky airport thriller novel rather than something a bit more weighty, which is fine.

A lot of the character work is far too shallow to call it anything else though. If a movie introduced a character in a dream sequence, and not only that, but a shower scene, I'd have to scramble around on the ground looking for my eyes as they'd have fallen out of my head I'd have been rolling them so much. Then have the character been largely useless for th emost part only to fall in love with the hero after spending all of a few hours with him? Add in a trip to the psychiatrist for the main character and you have a nice big dollop of cliches. Which is fine, I enjoyed the hell out of the game, but it didn't make me sit down and reflect on life and loss like David Cage intended.

I completely agree, I just think it's unfair that some people are calling things plot holes that aren't, especially when they just forgot part of a scene or remembered something wrong. It's more M. Night Shamalayan than David Fincher. To me I think you're criticising the game for the right reasons - if David Cage wants to put games out there as a medium for proper drama than they will be held to the same standard as a good drama. As a credit to him though even though it was a bit cheesy I did really feel for the characters at times, especially Ethan.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Why does Ethan have blackouts that result in him 'waking up' miles away and holding origami figues?

I think it explains this in the scene with the therapist. Ethan is so distraught about the death of Jason and feeling that he is to blame, he gets blackouts. As he feels to blame for that it's a not big jump to blaming himself for the Origami killings. It's common for people to break down emotionally when their kid dies.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

When escaping the motel, why are the cops so bloody useless. You fall backwards off the roof, cream yourself, step out infront of a taxi, car jack it and drive off, all without the visible swap/cop guys 20 FEET AWAY doing nothing. Hell, Blake manages to get down from the roof quicker than they react.

That's just your standard thriller stuff that requires a bit of suspension of disbelief. You could say the same thing about The Fugitive or any other number of films where the cops are portrayed as unrealistically incompetent. That's not really a plot hole.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Considering no one had coped on to the letters address issue (with the typewriter) why the hell did Shelby go there in the first place, to kill the guy for the fun of it?

He went there to make sure that he couldn't be tied to the Origami killings. He was being thorough, like all good serial killers are.

Mitch Connor

also, regarding the blackouts, how much of a douche is Ethan?

You have one blackout where you could have lost your son or at the least put him in danger by leaving him in the house alone of an indeterminate length of time, and you tell NO ONE apart from your shrink?

You already blame youself for one kid dying (that kid was a moron by the way) and you do absolutely nothing about such a dangerous incident, and it leads either directly or indirectly to your second kid going missing (who has all the emotion of an emo kid doing something no one would car about to begin with..... "help me dad, i'm, like, getting wet and stuff)

Social services should have been all over him after that crap, regardless of him cutting his finger off.

Burning Eclipse

Mitch Connor wrote: »

here are some plot holes.

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/heavy-rains-big-plot-holes/a-20100224105436979020

Read that before. While I agree that the writing and plot in Heavy Rain don't match the likes of Seven (a film I adore), I think that article picks on some elements just for the sake of it to be fair.

GothPunk

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But he is ment to have done it in every direction, how did he manage it without glassing himself into a corner? And the thing was just about big enough for Ethan to get through (with trouble cause he has the agility of wood)

Very simply actually, you fill up the dead ends first and then you start at the entrance and move backwards. It's not a plot hole, it's the game requiring a bit of suspension of disbelief. Films do it all the time - it's a fantastical story so naturally there will be a few fantastical elements to it. Ethan doesn't barely fit in the tunnel, his has enough room to turn around quite comfortably if you ever go down a dead end.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Social services should have been all over him after that crap, regardless of him cutting his finger off.

Exactly, he wouldn't have told anyone as they may have taken his kid away from him. I think after loosing one kid he didn't want to loose custody of the other. He's not a robot, he's supposed to be an emotionally fragile character.

Mitch Connor

GothPunk wrote: »

I think it explains this in the scene with the therapist. Ethan is so distraught about the death of Jason and feeling that he is to blame, he gets blackouts. As he feels to blame for that it's a not big jump to blaming himself for the Origami killings. It's common for people to break down emotionally when their kid dies.

Indeed, it explains the blackouts themselves, but why the origami. Did he learn to do it at blackout classes? The origami figures may not be a plot hole, but it is cheap writing at least.

GothPunk wrote: »

He went there to make sure that he couldn't be tied to the Origami killings. He was being thorough, like all good serial killers are.

Being thorough, 3 years later. Maybe if he didn't use the name John Sheperd to suscribe to origami mags, and rent houses, and get typewriters fixed, he might be in a better situation...

RAIN

'Sometimes' its good not to get answers. Like with Jayden, the ARI stuff works so well because you never really get an explanation about whats going on.

This whole thread reminds me of when Watchmen came out, people debated its flaws and strenght's till the cows came home but in the end I was still glad the movie existed.

Same with Heavy Rain.

raze

Why does Ethan come to after the first schizophrenic episode on Carnaby St, Scott's childhood home? Why does he see drowning, and does it pre-date media reports of previous Origami killings? Why does Madison try to kiss Ethan, a man she's known maybe a day and a half, after he says (in my storyline anyway) - 'I've killed a man, *whiny voice*I had NO CHOICE'? Why does nobody give a rat's ass about Nathaniel's death (if you kill him), and does Scott not murder more people going to see Kramer than he has in years of being a serial killer? Has the weather never improved before, meaning the kid just starves in a soggy pit? How much does a retired lieutenant make to be able to rent multiple properties and run webcams to each? That poison room looked pretty plush in the 5 seconds I was in it. Why would anybody get on that conveyor belt, to escape or to pursue? I really don't recall Madison having Jayden's phone number until the penultimate scene when she needs to ring him. At the first crime scene the ARI unit identifies a bank manager's fingerprint, saying "no criminal record" - so his fingerprint is on file, why?

I had more niggling pointless little gripes with the plot than I thought I would - but I'll overlook them all for the experience as a whole. Playing this against anything else with a story, it's the first time I felt a game was edited, like you would edit a bad movie/airport novel. I don't think they did it perfectly, but at least they tried. Same with what's said: for all the bad voice acting, the script is pretty good on the whole.

NotorietyH

GothPunk wrote: »

I think it explains this in the scene with the therapist. Ethan is so distraught about the death of Jason and feeling that he is to blame, he gets blackouts. As he feels to blame for that it's a not big jump to blaming himself for the Origami killings. It's common for people to break down emotionally when their kid dies.

Not so common for them to experience blackouts where they mysteriously fold origami though! I knew Ethan wasn't going to be the killer because they were telegraphing it so much, and I kept wondering how they were going to explain the origami figure, blackouts fair enough, but the origami was just a "We have to get the cops to suspect Ethan, but how?" kind of crowbarred in plot mechanic.

I did like the idea of a killer investigating a case so he could clear up any evidence. I thought that was a good plot device. Some of the poor writing and acting pulled me out of the story a bit, but I was fairly involved in the story all the same. If it was a movie though, and I wasn't interacting with the story, I'd really be ripping it to shreds. It'd be a straight to DVD generic thriller if it was a movie. So David Cage to me anyway has fialed in trying to bridge the creative gap between movies and games. Heavy Rain if anything, widened the gap a bit.

More recently I found the story and characters of Mass Effect 2 far more involving than Heavy Rain. There were a few moments where I really had to stop and consider a decision though. Like with Ethan when I had to decide whether to kill that drug dealer or not. In the end I went with shooting him, even though I didn't want to. In the end though ti wasn't because I wanted to save Shaun, it was because I wanted the trophy for completing all of the trials.

It's a bit of a squandered oppurtunity really. Better acting and writing could have really elevated it to the level of interactive drama. Still a great game though for what it does right. Some of the sequences are brilliant.

NotorietyH

raze wrote: »

. At the first crime scene the ARI unit identifies a bank manager's fingerprint, saying "no criminal record" - so his fingerprint is on file, why?

Also it's "Not relevant to the investigation," as Jayden states. Yeah because only people with existing criminal records commit crimes, so this piece has no relation to the case. What's a bank manage doing on a wasteland by train tracks anyway? Doesn't matter! He doesn't have a record!

Mitch Connor

GothPunk wrote: »

Very simply actually, you fill up the dead ends first and then you start at the entrance and move backwards. It's not a plot hole, it's the game requiring a bit of suspension of disbelief. Films do it all the time - it's a fantastical story so naturally there will be a few fantastical elements to it. Ethan doesn't barely fit in the tunnel, his has enough room to turn around quite comfortably if you ever go down a dead end.

Exactly, he wouldn't have told anyone as they may have taken his kid away from him. I think after loosing one kid he didn't want to loose custody of the other. He's not a robot, he's supposed to be an emotionally fragile character.

how about - here ex-wife and mother of my son, please take care of Shaun for a while as I am not well and need medical help, which i am going to get as I don't want to be a danger to a second child like I feel I am to the first.

Burning Eclipse

RAIN wrote: »

This whole thread reminds me of when Watchmen came out, people debated its flaws and strenght's till the cows came home but in the end I was still glad the movie existed.

Same with Heavy Rain.

Well said. It's not flawless, but it's a really great game (imo) and something I'd love to see more developers trying.

GothPunk

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Indeed, it explains the blackouts themselves, but why the origami. Did he learn to do it at blackout classes? The origami figures may not be a plot hole, but it is cheap writing at least.

It's not that hard to fold origami, and I don't think Ethan ever says he doesn't know how to fold origami. It may be cheap writing, but this is a thread about plot holes.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Being thorough, 3 years later. Maybe if he didn't use the name John Sheperd to suscribe to origami mags, and rent houses, and get typewriters fixed, he might be in a better situation...

I think the implication is that Ethan and Shaun are his last targets for his killings as the Origami killer. He even says at the end 'I knew you could do it Ethan'. I think Scott figured he had finally found his 'father', and thus he wouldn't have to continue with his search. Thus that is why he starts clearing up the loose ends.

Additionally or alternatively, judging from the fact that he burns down his office and the ending where Lauren is dead and Scott gets away scott free (oh lol! :pac:) and seems to be leaving town, I think Scott has garnered too much attention in that town and is moving on. So either he is content he has finished his search and wants to move on and live a normal life, or he's moving to a new town/state etc to continue his search there.

To say that he just decided to tie up loose ends 3 years later isn't true as we don't know what he was doing before we meet him in the game. We join the characters at a certain point in time, it's possible Scott always follows up with each family to clear up anything that may link him to the Origami killings. I think the game does a good job at implying this.

There's also the fact that yes, it's a story, and it's an interesting juxtaposition to think that he is gathering clues as part of an investigation into a killer when in fact he is the killer trying to get rid of the evidence and tie up loose ends.

johnny_ultimate

RAIN wrote: »

This whole thread reminds me of when Watchmen came out, people debated its flaws and strenght's till the cows came home but in the end I was still glad the movie existed.

They both also have awfully cheesy sex scenes :pac: There is something oddly disturbing about two toungeless CGI creations going at it.

I'm definitely glad the game exists though - game storytelling is decades behind film, and Heavy Rain makes some sort of progress towards maturity. The issues I'd personally have with it - in terms of interactivity (which even wasn't any near as bad as I feared) and some silly moments - are ones I look forward to Quantic Dream and others sorting through in order to make gaming better. I don't think there are major major plotholes (the story makes sense, give or take one or two scenes like the hospital) and the story works and flows well for the most part. Heavy Rain is a game not focused on mindless action, and barring that pretty stupid Shelby scene near the end, makes killing a character a very tricky decision (no way was I going to kill the drug dealer / father). Interestingly, I also think it was a far more mature take on the Saw formula - moral decisions actually define the characters and outcome.

It was a ****load better than Watchmen anyway.;)

GothPunk

Just to follow on from that thought johnny, Quantic Dream have a contract with Sony for 2 games, so it's possible with the success of Heavy Rain they'll be given the funds to make an even better game.

Here's another thing I was just thinking of RE: plot holes, does anyone think some of them might be deliberate in order to sell DLC? We know that Heavy Rain will have downloadable episodes, whether they take part before, during or after the events of Heavy Rain is unknown. Surely they won't all be like 'The Taxidermist'. Hmm...

Spoilers here regarding certain plot points that I just read about and thought people might be interested about.

Jason's Death:

Apparently the shop Jason is at before he runs across the road and gets hit by the car is... a paper supply shop, perhaps even the one origami shop in town. This may explain Ethan having origami in his hand when he has a blackout, that he makes an association between paper/origami and a child's death.

Tunnel of Glass:

Apparently down one of the dead ends you find a dead body, presumably of the father who went missing. So the tunnel of glass has been used before which makes more sense that Scott went to the trouble of creating it.

It's details like this that make me want to play it again and again. Perhaps I should stop reading up about what other people saw though, heh!

Grumpypants

I think a lot of the plot holes are from people missing things themselves and from the story taking many different paths so not everything fits together. Im a lot more forgiving about the writing not being of movie quality its a lot easier to make a film thats 1-1/2 long keep your interest but when you have to write for a 12 hour long game its going to be up and down. Add to that the many different directions you can choose, it could increase that 12 up to 20 hours.

I enjoyed it and im a massive movie fan but found that this was more TV show than movie writing.

Just on a side note it was when i was attacked in Paco's office was when i first thought that the killer was shelby. Which is weird as others are ponting it out as a plot hole


The weirdest thing of all though was when Ethan knew he only had a set time to save his son he still thought having a shag was a good idea.:D

RAIN

Id agree with the TV show comparison. I was just telling my mate that the day I sat down and played it, felt like one of those days you sit down and throw on a dvd boxset, and watch the whole season!

Roar

Goth Punk, I gotta say, fair play. (I might eat some hay, I just may. Whatta ya say?)

You've taken most of our plot hole suggestions and given rational explanations for them in the context of the game. Excellent posts.

NotorietyH

Grumpypants wrote: »

I enjoyed it and im a massive movie fan but found that this was more TV show than movie writing.

Yeah they're the same thing. The only difference in writing a TV Show and a Movie is length, and Heavy Rain's story is more like a movie than anything really. I've seen movies that deal with more complicated plots and characters than in a much shorter timeframe and more successfully.

It's no excuse for plot holes and poor writing or characterisation either. There are many many examples of just absolutely dreadful writing in Heavy Rain. When you have a script that just throws in completely illogical or ridiculously coincidental moments just to try and hoodwick the audience, it's bad writing whether it's a TV Show, a movie or a novel.

Someone posted a link there earlier to a list of plot holes and while some are excusable, a lot of them are absolutely ridiculous. The fact that there's so many lazy, half-arsed moments of dialogue and character beats doesn't do the overall story any favours either in defending against the lazy writing.

To successfully pull off a twist you have to be able to go back and watch the film and see scenes in a new light and go "Of course! ****, how didn't I notice that!" like Fight Club or The Usual Suspects. What you don't want is to go back and watch the film, or think about the film and say "How the **** was I supposed to know that?" You're cheating the audience if you do that and cheapening the experience. The origami figures in Ethan's hand after his blackouts are so pathetically half-arsed and shoe-horned in that I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I was just hoping that there'd be a somewhat rational explanation. Little did I know there weren't even going to offer one!

Though I did say on the other thread, the bad writing actually helped hide the twist from me, as anything Scott did that waved a red flag in front of my face I just dismissed as very lazy writing. Like Scott telling Hassan that Shaun was the latest victim before the police even knew. That's an example of good writing, when you go back and watch that scene you're like "Of course! Argh, should've known then!"

It'd be a piss-poor TV Show too if it was made. I'm of the opinion anyway that some of the best writing can be seen on TV rather than movies these days

Burning Eclipse

NotorietyH wrote: »

I'm of the opinion anyway that some of the best writing can be seen on TV rather than movies these days

Omar comin'

NotorietyH

Burning Eclipse wrote: »

Omar comin'

Exactly the show I was referring to :P

EDIT: Again I still really like Heavy Rain and it'll still probably be in my top 5 games of the year, but it's got some of the worst writing and acting I've seen, but some really good moments too. It's like 24. Ridiculous illogical plots. Stereotypical, cliched and two-dimensional characters (for the most part) but still enjoyable as hell with some fantastic set pieces. If David Cage hadn't been so up his own arse about the game I probably wouldn't have as much an issue with the writing etc. Maybe if the game didn't take itself so seriously.

GothPunk

Roar wrote: »

Goth Punk, I gotta say, fair play. (I might eat some hay, I just may. Whatta ya say?)

You've taken most of our plot hole suggestions and given rational explanations for them in the context of the game. Excellent posts.

:pac: You're welcome. I'm just in Heavy Rain plot dissection mode at the moment I think so that's where all this is coming from. One of the reasons why I'm looking forward to playing it through again a few times.

FortuneChip

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed playing, and as of tonight, finishing it.
It wasn't the usual sense of accomplishment one usually gets from completing a game, not in the least due to the fact you can't actually fail to complete it, save opting not to.

Distinguishing between Major Plot holes and slight inconsistencies seems an issue on this thread alright. Makes for interesting reading.

One I wouldn't mind having more information on include Ethans blackouts, not why they happen, but when do they happen in relation to the Origami killings. They happen after his accident; how long had Shelby been up to his tricks like? I can't remember the exact details Ethans wife alluded to regarding the blackouts.

Shelby goes on a mad one at Gordo's house, and regardless of whether you leave the poor man to die or give him the pills, Shelby's thoughts are along the lines of "Can't let him die, or I'm no better than him" Eh Scott... watch you don't stand on the pile of bodies on your way out!

I'll happily plead ignorant if I've personally missed out on something.

weiland79

Ok so we all have watched an episode of cops in our lives, and we all know that once the helicopter gets it's light on you your pretty much up the creek.So what the hell happened on the roof of the Motel.You clearly see Ethan caught in the light,then off he goes over the edge and ...... where the hell is the 'choppa'.Have they gone off for tea and scones.

Zero-Cool

Not quite a plot hole but does anyone else think that both dead guys (1 in the tunnel & 1 in the doctors basement) were both dads for Lauren the prossie and the suicidal chick with the baby?

Also, Jayden was addicted to his Ari more than the drugs as his butler would say "Your indulgence will kill you" and I heard he dies in the Ari if you stay in too long plus the tanks at end are from the ari messing with his head.

NotorietyH

Was playing through again last night and another major plot hole popped up in relation to the Manfred murder. Nothing to do with the fact that Scott will have had to run across the room, murder Manfred, phone the police and get back to his starting position without breaking a sweat or getting out of breath all in 14 seconds. I was willing to chalk that up to suspension of disbelief.

No the real plot hole is the fact that Scott had to murder him at all. Which really means that this whole scene is just a blatant, unfair trick to try and stop you spotting the twist and is just lazy, cheating writing.

The whole reason Scott has to murder Manfred is to cover his tracks right? I thought it was strange that Manfred didn't mention that Scott owned one of the very typewriters he was talking about throughout the course of their conversation. Unless he didn't know Scott had one. Then why did Scott have to murder him? Maybe because he used his fake name? Manfred has known Scott for years, and hasn't seen him in as long, so Scott wouldn't have been able to use his fake name. Would have been clever is Manfred had never used the name Scott in the scene, would have given that moment of "Ah! Why didn't I notice that!" but no Scott introduces himself with his own name and Manfred reacts to it, recognising him. Manfred also knows Scott was with the police so they obviously know each other pretty well. So Scott had no reason to kill Manfred, as there was no record anywhere that Scott owned a Royal 5 typewriter.

It's the scene in the kitchen later that confirms it. Lauren is looking through the notebook saying that there's 30 names on the list and the killer could be one of them. Only 30 names? Lauren would have seen Scott's name written down there if it was on the list, and as established, Scott couldn't have used the John Sheppard alias when getting the typewriter repaired, so again there's absolutely no reason in the world for Scott to go to Manfred's to try and cover his tracks, except to trick and cheat the audience. It's shamefully bad writing. It's not just an oversight either, it just shows a complete lack of thought in terms of writing the script. It's so lazy and smacks of 'first draft' writing. If we're supposed to ignore the notebook, which still cheats the audience, that's undermined by the fact that later on Scott burns the notebook while burning the other evidence.

That whole Manfred scene is the worst offender in terms of writing and execution. It reminds movies with the worst kind of cheap twist, like Switchblade Romance. There is no reason at all for that scene to exist except to trick and pull the wool over over the eyes of the audience. When the twist is revealed that scene makes no sense in terms of the 'truth'. Twists only work when scenes make sense both ways through the lie and the truth.

Grrrr. Such a shame. It's annoying that instead of debating themes, character motivation and actions and the moral dilemmas of the plot, instead the only debate about Heavy Rain is the many plot holes and trying to justify them. All because of such a weak script hidden behind top notch presentation.

EDIT: Just playing the next scene and it's even more annoying. John Sheppard is indeed on both lists which makes Manfred recognising Scott all the more annoying. If he hadn't used the name 'Scott' I'd say fair enough, that's clever. It just exposes the cheat the way it is now. Manfred knows Scott for years, recognises him as Scott, but doesn't apparently when he walks in one days as John Sheppard with a broken typewriter. Horrendous writing, really cheap trick. It's totally as if no one actually say down with the script, went through the 'mystery' and made sure it actually made sense.