Whats your description of an alpha male?

ronaldoshaky · 01-03-2010 11:31PM #1

I dont understand why on earth do people would apply this term to humans. It doesnt seem logical.

Dr Galen · 01-03-2010 11:32PM

care to elaborate on what you don't understand?

Paulegend · 01-03-2010 11:46PM

ronaldoshaky wrote: »

I dont understand why on earth do people would apply this term to humans. It doesnt seem logical.

i think youll find that we humans are a specie of animale and therefore the term alpha male does naturally come into effect. before humans became domesticated we operated in packs.

alpha male still exits when you see the "lads" in the pub. there is always one who seems to be the "leader" he is the one who the others(or majority) will follow around to bars.

when you look at society we promote the idea of alpha male in democracy. one person leading the country(albeit with alot of help and protection against destroying the place).

to quickly sum it up Alpha males are a natural part of society

krudler · 01-03-2010 11:57PM

A douchebag

Dr Galen · 01-03-2010 11:59PM

krudler wrote: »

A douchebag

alpha males are?

Giselle · 02-03-2010 12:03AM

From my female point of view an alpha male is a man with confidence in himself who is capable of acting without the need for approval or affirmation from his peer group.

A leader, moral and responsible.

A guy who does, not a guy who talks about doing.

NOT a loud, agressive, obnoxious, sexist bully or someone constantly self-promoting.

humberklog · 02-03-2010 12:16AM

Giselle wrote: »

From my female point of view an alpha male is a man with confidence in himself who is capable of acting without the need for approval or affirmation from his peer group.

A leader, moral and responsible.

A guy who does, not a guy who talks about doing.

NOT a loud, agressive, obnoxious, sexist bully or someone constantly self-promoting.

Oooh I'd have thought that's a very romantic notion of what is meant though Giselle. You may consider it that but I do think it's away from the actualities. I'd have thought that it is a male that rises to a dominant position in society but at any expence and using any Machiavellian tool in the box to do so. In using such tools then moral codes and social resonsibilities often get flung out of the pram first.

An Alpha Male isn't a good prince from a book.

Giselle · 02-03-2010 12:19AM

humberklog wrote: »

Oooh I'd have thought that's a very romantic notion of what is meant though Giselle. You may consider it that but I do think it's away from the actualities. I'd have thought that it is a male that rises to a dominant position in society but at any expence and using any Machiavellian tool in the box to do so. In using such tools moral codes and social resonsabilities often get flung out of the pram first.

An Alpha Male isn't a good prince from a book.

I think what you're describing is called a sociopath.:D

humberklog · 02-03-2010 12:22AM

Giselle wrote: »

I think what you're describing is called a sociopath.:D

Yep...with a twist of psychoticism...and bingo! Et voila...Alpha Male.

amacachi · 02-03-2010 12:24AM

krudler wrote: »

A douchebag

Aye, most fellas described as "alpha males" are, IMO, tossers.

deadhead13 · 02-03-2010 12:42AM

Giselle wrote: »

From my female point of view an alpha male is a man with confidence in himself who is capable of acting without the need for approval or affirmation from his peer group.

A leader, moral and responsible.

A guy who does, not a guy who talks about doing.

NOT a loud, agressive, obnoxious, sexist bully or someone constantly self-promoting.

I have to agree with Humberlog here, a non-aggressive alpha male is a contradiction in terms I think.

Giselle · 02-03-2010 12:45AM

deadhead13 wrote: »

I have to agree with Humberlog here, a non-aggressive alpha male is a contradiction in terms I think.

I always thought assertiveness is a true alpha trait.

Aggressiveness is for the wannabes.:)

humberklog · 02-03-2010 12:58AM

Giselle wrote: »

I always thought assertiveness is a true alpha trait.

Aggressiveness is for the wannabes.:)

Nope, and finely honed passive agression ftw with your ol' AM.

Good princes on horse back thinking on your part Giselle. Not Alpha Male territory.

Red Hand · 02-03-2010 01:34AM

humberklog wrote: »

Oooh I'd have thought that's a very romantic notion of what is meant though Giselle. You may consider it that but I do think it's away from the actualities. I'd have thought that it is a male that rises to a dominant position in society but at any expence and using any Machiavellian tool in the box to do so. In using such tools moral codes and social resonsabilities often get flung out of the pram first.

An Alpha Male isn't a good prince from a book.

I'd agree, though it depends totally on the society. In hunter/gatherer societies, the leader is often informal, and has gotten there because of merit and is like the rest of the tribe eg gathers his own food etc. Leaderhips change is often bloodless...people will simply pick someone who they find will be a better leader because the band of people is so small that armies and police are impractical, and leader has nothing of any value that someone cannot acquire by hunting/gathering themselves.

Its when you get beyond that level that chiefs, strongmen, kings, and emperors come to the fore and they will use whatever means necessary to acquire and hold their position.

Alpha males in small little groups of friends? I'm not sure. Is it not a pick up artist term, and thus by that very fact, invalid?:pac: You are going to get leaders in small groups of friends/acquaintances, but I wouldn't term them alpha males.

Wibbs · 02-03-2010 01:34AM

This "alpha male" stuff seems to me at least to be some notion cooked up by new age nietzschean will to power types and "pickup artists".

Yes we are a social animal and as such will have some role similarity with other social animals, but humans are far more complex and nuanced.

As such we vary over time and circumstance in what we percieve as the alpha male(or female for that matter).

In a wolf pack as an example, the alpha is pretty much fixed once it rises to dominance. That is far less true with humans IMHO. While our small scale structures are in many ways closer to a wolf pack than to our primate cousins(hence we gel with dogs very well), our primate cousins are a better yardstick to judge when regarding ourselves.

I suppose getting down to brass tacks, the alpha male is the one who has "control" of and impregnates the most females or alpha female in a group. In the wolf pack the alpha male and female are pretty much the only ones who get jiggy. In groups of apes, while there may be an "alpha" male, other males sneak in and get jiggy with the females on the sly.

I know and have known many so called "alpha" men who are cuckolds, so as much as some would like to think the wolf model doesnt hold so true. In primates and us it's not so nearly clear cut, though the above will to power types and the pickup artist types would have you believe it does. Well its neat and sells books etc.

In humans the adaptable and consistent meet the criteria more. Indeed you can throw in the consistently non threatening(to other men) as a side order..

Human alpha male? The middle ground of emotionally, socially and (somewhat) sexually consistent man is the one that has the most currency, though the out and out "alpha" may be the more obvious

the_syco · 02-03-2010 02:06AM

I know one or two "alpha males", and both can kick ass, are intelligent, get the girls, show leadership qualities, and are respected by others. They probably don't think themselves as alpha males, and tbh, that is part of what makes them the alpha male: they are not up their own arses on how cool they are.

They are often the people who could sit down anywhere, and their presence alone would draw a "good crowd" of people.

This last part is what separates the "alpha males", and the wannabes who use fear to make people think they are the alpha males, when in fact they're losers who if are alone will stay alone.

epgc3fyqirnbsx · 02-03-2010 02:18AM

the_syco wrote: »

I know one or two "alpha males", and both can kick ass, are intelligent, get the girls, show leadership qualities, and are respected by others. They probably don't think themselves as alpha males, and tbh, that is part of what makes them the alpha male: they are not up their own arses on how cool they are.

They are often the people who could sit down anywhere, and their presence alone would draw a "good crowd" of people.

This last part is what separates the "alpha males", and the wannabes who use fear to make people think they are the alpha males, when in fact they're losers who if are alone will stay alone.

Yeah I know lads like that, so bloody natural to them and to top it all off they're nice fellas so you can't legitimately hate them!

And to make them all the more appealing to the opposite sex they're in long term relationships with very happy women

Maybe they are d1ckheads indoors

humberklog · 02-03-2010 02:24AM

Oh but it hardly does to mention people that you know that we don't, there's not much provenance to it...if you know what I mean. Especially when, by the nature of them, they can often pop up in the public domain: JFK for example. There's plenty of material there...hell, sure drop into Godwin's and drag Hitler out screaming and kicking, Ben Dunne anyone?

Wibbs · 02-03-2010 11:02AM

To stretch the wolf pack heirarchy more, those men especially Herr Hitler would be better described as enforcers as well as alpha types.

It's not all about aggression. Someone like Ghandi would be an "alpha" male. Ditto with religion founders. Jesus and the Buddha spring to mind. No aggression or violence there. Mohammad would be more the enforcer type as he carved out a religious empire in his lifetime.

On the purely biological, I'd still say the alpha is the male who has the most children. Either with one woman, but more usually more than one. So from that standpoint the guy from the dodgy neighbourhood with 6 kids with 4 different women by 30, is biologically more "alpha" than the top biz executive with one kid. You could argue similar for women. The woman with 4 kids from 4 different men has ensured a good spread of genes for the next generation.

Historically Genghis Khan wins as the most alpha male so far known(on all scores pretty much). A large proportion of his genes survive in the Y chromosome of Asian men to this day. The second highest is apparently closer to home. Niall of the nine hostages. A large proportion of men in Ireland, particularly from the north have his genes swimming around.

I suppose what the majority of Alphas would have in common is a quiet conviction that they are right. Outside influences are not as, well influential on them(in public anyway. Many in private were insecure). This conviction that you are right is very attractive to men and women. So long as it doesnt go too far towards arrogance(though even then).

L31mr0d · 02-03-2010 11:42AM

Personally, I'd view anyone at the top of their prospective field of competition as an Alpha male.

Bill Gates is as much an Alpha male as Lance Armstrong.

In small groups, the Alpha male is usually the assumed leader. These tend to form naturally I've found. Someone will always just fit the role. Then you usually have the Beta vying for the position.

In pop-culture though, men who talk about being Alphas or wanting to be Alphas tend to be meat heads and they are viewing it in the canine sense of aggression and strength above all. Basically, if a person talks about being an Alpha male, it's a good sign that they aren't.

Hazys · 02-03-2010 03:50PM

L31mr0d · 02-03-2010 03:53PM

Hazys wrote: »

http://content.artofmanliness.com/uploads/2008/11/chuck_norris.jpg

No no no, we're talking about Alpha Males here, not Gods :pac:

Otis Driftwood · 02-03-2010 03:54PM

I would consider an alpha male as a natural leader,someone that can influence others and that people are subconciously drawn to.They dont neccessarily have to be aggressive or a dick either.

Hazys · 02-03-2010 04:15PM

nedtheshed wrote: »

I would consider an alpha male as a natural leader,someone that can influence others and that people are subconciously drawn to.They dont neccessarily have to be aggressive or a dick either.

I agree being an alpha male has nothing to do with being cocky or an ahole. An alpha male would walk into a room and all the men in the room would look up to this male and he would control the room.

Some guys maybe considered an alpha male for putting down/bullying other males but a true alpha male is a leader of men who has the respect of all the males and not a dictator.

Smallbit · 03-03-2010 10:56AM

It seems to be mostly a semantic argument, with some people assigning the term alpha male to aggressive dickheads and others assigning it to knights on horseback. It really depends on whether your impression of alpha male behaviour is positive or negative. It also illustrates the difficulty in pigeonholing 'types' of male.

All you can really say for sure, in terms of psychology theory, is that behavioural trends such as assertiveness, confidence, leadership, and so on are attributable to alpha males. This doesn't mean that these qualities are employed positively or negatively, nor does it mean that any peer group can be predicted to interpret these qualities in a particular way.

donfers · 03-03-2010 03:32PM

Hazys wrote: »

An alpha male would walk into a room and all the men in the room would look up to this male and he would control the room.

err...no, that's not how it works, I have never done that in my life nor have anyone I know, your definition is a bit simplistic, a bit "Hollywoody".

How it works is as follows:

alpha male is leader figure within a group, he has earned that role within the group, it didn't come automatically. How did he earn it? Maybe by standing up for group members during arguments/fights, maybe by being financially independent and being first to get a house/car, maybe by being the most blunt/honest/vocal/ member in the group, maybe by being unafraid to insult/disparage other members of the group and winning the personal confrontations, maybe by scoring the most women on nights out, maybe by just being an intelligent, supportive character, maybe by being very tall or working out at the gym....whatever. The point is he earns the role, it doesn't happen automatically.

Two things worth noting though

1) He is only powerful if he surrounds himself by those that have submitted to his leadership, if new people in the group view others being subservient to him then they too will acknowledge his hard-earned status despite not knowing him (but only because they see his interactions with other group members

2) As a result of point 1 the alpha male is only as strong as the group that promotes him to that position, if he was in a completely new group of people, he'd have to earn that status all over again - and the qualities for which he earned alpha male status in his previous group might not be as valued in his new group, thus he may leave the group and find those who are willing to value his brand of alpha maleness. Basically it's a very fluid concept and an alpha male is only an alpha male if those in his peer group or willing to elevate him to that status. It's not something that is an inherent part of him, it's not as simple as him walking into a room and everyone saying "wow, i want to worship that man". That's not how it works. That's called lust and that's a slightly different thing.

Giselle · 03-03-2010 04:22PM

deadhead13 wrote: »

I have to agree with Humberlog here, a non-aggressive alpha male is a contradiction in terms I think.

I dunno. I don't think a domineering male and an alpha male aren't necessarily the same thing.

The alpha types I've been attracted were more attractive because they never seemed to need to be dominating. Verbally, emotionally or physically.

I think its quite likely that a mans definition differs from a womans quite considerably.

I do agree that the quicker a man is to identify himself as an alpha male, the less likely he is to be one.:)

CDfm · 03-03-2010 06:36PM

An alpha male would never post his pic on "lads of tLL"

:D

deadhead13 · 03-03-2010 06:39PM

Giselle wrote: »

I think its quite likely that a mans definition differs from a womans quite considerably.

Nearly everyone who as posted on the threads definition seems to differ to some degree. I had a quick look on google to try and find a textbook definition, but gave up trying to wade through all the naff "How to become an alpha males and attract women" sites out there. Which makes me wonder was the whole concept of the human alpha male started by a "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"-type book, as opposed to being based on any scientific research.

CDfm · 03-03-2010 07:00PM

I think you could go back further to Desmond Morris and the Naked Ape and probably then some.

Alpha male or top dog in pack animals but its not readily a term thats transferable to humans.

I mean the smartest guy in the school may be a nerd but add a couple of years on and put a stetescope around his neck and he is a hunk.

Humans are social animals and the term is not as transferable as we might think. Not at all. Alpha house, alpha car, alpha job.

I would imagine that a Civil or Public Servant in a permanent job on a decent wage is a much more attractive proposition for a woman than a builder at the moment.

So in human society being an alpha male is relative like "how many girls would be attracted with the chat up-line " I am a mod on boards" in a nightclub.

BumbleB · 03-03-2010 10:17PM

I think its totally inapplicable to people ,because being an alpha is non transferrable ,you may be the hot shot captain of the gaa team or whatever in Mayo but when you move to Dublin youre an outsider. I choose to ignore it. Also in groups of people ,so called alpha males tend to be people that completely take over and manipulate conservations . They are successful with girls because resistance is futile because they talk so much.

I now understand the game and human dynamics so thoroughly I am no longer part of it.

I do what I want and I dont care what other people think.

Whats your description of an alpha male?

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