Why doesn't Dublin have an underground metro?

Johnny Utah · 27-02-2010 12:53PM #1

I think the Luas should really have been put underground to allow it to move faster in the city centre.

Anyone else agree?

L1011 · 27-02-2010 12:55PM

Because we haven't got planning permission for it yet. Either of the underground lines, that is.

noelfirl · 27-02-2010 03:24PM

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I think the Luas should really have been put underground to allow it to move faster in the city centre.

Anyone else agree?

Feel free to blame the government of late 90's - early 00's who backed out of the original plan which if I remember correctly was for Luas Green to go underground in the city centre, re-emerging somewhere around Ballymun and continuing to the airport.

ronaneire · 27-02-2010 03:42PM

Like a lot of things in this Country... Bureaucracy, red tape and money.
Why not go back and blame governments of the 70's and 80's too?
I suppose why will always be the question.

Johnny Utah · 27-02-2010 03:51PM

noelfirl wrote: »

Feel free to blame the government of late 90's - early 00's who backed out of the original plan which if I remember correctly was for Luas Green to go underground in the city centre, re-emerging somewhere around Ballymun and continuing to the airport.

That's sounds like a great idea, they should have gone ahead with that plan. They will probably dig up the Luas in about 50 years' time and put it underground (at a huge cost). Why can't they get important infrastructure right the first time round in this country?

Outkast_IRE · 27-02-2010 03:53PM

And the best part is that if we had the plans submitted and issues sorted in time in the early 90s then the EU would of provided a huge amount of the funding instead we missed the deadline the and the government came up with a series of half assed ideas every few years since

GerardKeating · 27-02-2010 04:00PM

noelfirl wrote: »

Feel free to blame the government of late 90's - early 00's who backed out of the original plan which if I remember correctly was for Luas Green to go underground in the city centre, re-emerging somewhere around Ballymun and continuing to the airport.

Or the Government of the 80#s who scrapped plans for a DART network...

Run_to_da_hills · 27-02-2010 04:01PM

With the amount spent on the Port Tunnel they could have had several undergrounds leaving the heart of the city. :mad:

I can remember an old CIE freebee paper in the early 70ies that predicted an underground rail via Grafton St to be ready by 1995

Ham'nd'egger · 27-02-2010 04:01PM

The primary reasons why we don't have underground railways are long term money and economic wealth, population and the lay of the city. Dublin has not had enough of the first two to justify an underground while the spread out nature of Dublin makes it more pricey to plan lines.

NOELFIRL wrote:

Feel free to blame the government of late 90's - early 00's who backed out of the original plan which if I remember correctly was for Luas Green to go underground in the city centre, re-emerging somewhere around Ballymun and continuing to the airport.

After Bruton's government lost the General Election of 1997, the Public Inquiry was adjourned as the incoming Cabinet commissioned a report to investigate the case for an underground section of LUAS from the Green to the Airport via Broadstone. The report was made by W S Atkins in April 1998 and found in favour of an overground alignment but the Government rejected it. As a result, CIE withdrew it's initial Light Rail Order Application (This is the planning permission required to construct the line along with dealing with CPO's) and applied for three sections; Tallaght-Abbey Street, Green-Sandyford (This had since been extended from it's initial terminus at Balally) and Abbey Street-Connolly.

The delay in this chance of routing meant that the Public Inquiries only convened in January 1999 with a Railway Order only being made for the Tallaght line that September. In July 2000 Minister O'Rourke announced that the Sandyford line was to be built as a PPP with construction only beginning in late 2001, some 2 years behind schedule.

It's worth mentioning that without this delay, the section to Connolly and the IFSC area may not have seen fruition for several years afterwards so rail connection to LUAS and Busaras would only have been made at Heuston, equally laughable as the 2 years delay in construction.

FlameoftheWest · 27-02-2010 08:56PM

Bertie was instrumental in preveting the Luas underground section doing a favour for his city centre retailer buddies. The very muppets who are now demanding more Luas lines. You have to wonder about the psychology of so called business men who object to a machine which brings millions and millions of potential cutsomers to their shops for the next 100 years.

But that's what they did.

ronaldoshaky · 27-02-2010 08:59PM

they wont be able to afford it will they?

MJohnston · 27-02-2010 10:10PM

Would using a lane of each bore of the DPT be too dangerous or infeasible for some other reason?

Ham'nd'egger · 27-02-2010 10:36PM

MJohnston wrote: »

Would using a lane of each bore of the DPT be too dangerous or infeasible for some other reason?

Yes it would be unfeasible. Something to do with a Motorway in the way:)

MJohnston · 27-02-2010 10:38PM

I'm sure they could come up with some way around that, any practical, political or physical problems though?

Ham'nd'egger · 27-02-2010 10:43PM

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm sure they could come up with some way around that, any practical, political or physical problems though?

Yes, the Motorway. The M 50 would be compromised with a railway throughout it's length which defeats the entire purpose of a motorway. The tunnel is also too steep in places for a line to traverse.

MJohnston · 27-02-2010 10:46PM

Okay but they could easily take away motorway classification from the Port Tunnel, its not as if it would matter if it was the M50 or another name. Steep inclines are a real reason though, are they steeper than say the incline from Heuston to James Street? I've driven the tunnel a lot before, but its hard to judge the inclines because you've got nothing to compare it to.

Ham'nd'egger · 27-02-2010 10:59PM

MJohnston wrote: »

Okay but they could easily take away motorway classification from the Port Tunnel, its not as if it would matter if it was the M50 or another name. Steep inclines are a real reason though, are they steeper than say the incline from Heuston to James Street? I've driven the tunnel a lot before, but its hard to judge the inclines because you've got nothing to compare it to.

The incline you mention (Steevens Lane) has a slow speed limit throughout (it may well be just 20 Km/h) and isn't a through route for cars. It's not a long climb whereas much of the DPT is at sharp inclines no matter what bore you travel through it's length.

Safety access is also a factor and this can't be assured unless it's a dedicated route. You then have the matter of the M1/M50 junction at the northern end to deal with which.

patmar · 27-02-2010 11:37PM

It always amazes me the amount of people who think money grows on trees. This State is barely 90 years old and we started without a penny in our pockets, we had to borrow was it £6m from the few industries we had at the time to get the country moving. We have come a long way since and the Ireland today is transformed. Now some will say we wasted the so-called Celtic Tiger and will also start the political game. But does anyone ever stop to think of the TOTAL amount we would need to do all the things every corner of society clamours for ? How much would the Metro cost, how much is needed to sort out the health service, how much is needed to cure our awful 16% poverty rate, how much is needed for education. The list could go on and on and on and the end result would be hundreds of billions needed.
Someone is keeping a big secret about those money trees !

FlameoftheWest · 27-02-2010 11:53PM

patmar wrote: »

It always amazes me the amount of people who think money grows on trees. This State is barely 90 years old and we started without a penny in our pockets, we had to borrow was it £6m from the few industries we had at the time to get the country moving. We have come a long way since and the Ireland today is transformed. Now some will say we wasted the so-called Celtic Tiger and will also start the political game. But does anyone ever stop to think of the TOTAL amount we would need to do all the things every corner of society clamours for ? How much would the Metro cost, how much is needed to sort out the health service, how much is needed to cure our awful 16% poverty rate, how much is needed for education. The list could go on and on and on and the end result would be hundreds of billions needed.
Someone is keeping a big secret about those money trees !

Money was no object when it came to paying our public sector the highest salaries in the world.

At least if that money had of been spent on completing the original DART plan we would have something today other than holiday homes for school teachers and Garda.

As for the country only being 90 years old gimmie a break. Look what some of the Eastern European countries have achieved with their infrastructure since 1990. Also look at Portugal, Greece and Turkey. All poorer than Ireland yet metros and high speed rail lines were built.

D.L.R. · 28-02-2010 11:36AM

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Money was no object when it came to paying our public sector the highest salaries in the world.

At least if that money had of been spent on completing the original DART plan we would have something today other than holiday homes for school teachers and Garda.

As for the country only being 90 years old gimmie a break. Look what some of the Eastern European countries have achieved with their infrastructure since 1990. Also look at Portugal, Greece and Turkey. All poorer than Ireland yet metros and high speed rail lines were built.

Completely agree. Tired of all the poor mouth excuses at this stage - we've just squandered the biggest boom in our history theres no dressing that up any other way.

Bugnug · 28-02-2010 12:00PM

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I think the Luas should really have been put underground to allow it to move faster in the city centre.

Anyone else agree?

Why? Dublin is too small. We have a perfectly good bus and light rail system that should be improved and extended. We need to get a grip here folks. We live in a tiny country with a very small population and we simply cannot afford or do not need an underground. What about all of the taxi drivers that rely on visitors to the country to make a living? There seems to be this dissolusionment among Irish people that we are some major economic power house. Travel a little bit folks, most major Industrial countries dont even know we exist.

Roryhy · 28-02-2010 12:26PM

Bugnug wrote: »

Why? Dublin is too small. We have a perfectly good bus and light rail system that should be improved and extended. We need to get a grip here folks. We live in a tiny country with a very small population and we simply cannot afford or do not need an underground. What about all of the taxi drivers that rely on visitors to the country to make a living? There seems to be this dissolusionment among Irish people that we are some major economic power house. Travel a little bit folks, most major Industrial countries dont even know we exist.

Ireland has had an inferiority complex for too long, we can afford and should proceed with major infrastructural projects such as interconnector and metro.

Do i remember there being provision for the St Stephens green Luas line to be put underground from near Charlemont stop in to the green, where it could link up with the metro and the entire line be then be used as metro?

D.L.R. · 28-02-2010 12:49PM

Bugnug wrote: »

Why? Dublin is too small. We have a perfectly good bus and light rail system that should be improved and extended. We need to get a grip here folks. We live in a tiny country with a very small population and we simply cannot afford or do not need an underground. What about all of the taxi drivers that rely on visitors to the country to make a living? There seems to be this dissolusionment among Irish people that we are some major economic power house. Travel a little bit folks, most major Industrial countries dont even know we exist.

We're PLANNING TO BUILD a metro system. The point is its a decade late. Dublin is exactly the right size for a metro system in population terms, the rest of Ireland don't come into it.

Bugnug · 28-02-2010 12:57PM

D.L.R. wrote: »

We're PLANNING TO BUILD a metro system. The point is its a decade late. Dublin is exactly the right size for a metro system in population terms, the rest of Ireland don't come into it.

I think there a far more important issues on the agenda than a metro that we dont need or cant afford. I live in Dublin and I can walk from one end of the city to the other in around an hour. Try doing that in Paris, London, NY etc. We dont need an underground. We need to sort out our health service, our unemployment. We need to invest in indigenous industry to create a real and substanial export indusrty. We need to put people back in jobs. A little bit of imagination from the department of transport is what is needed to improve our public transport system, more bus corridors, extended luas and dart lines, more train services. This would cost a fraction of an underground that would not make a blind bit of difference to our economy or quality of lives a bit like the port tunnel, what a waste of money but it did provide some great media shots for Bertie et al.

Johnny Utah · 28-02-2010 01:11PM

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Money was no object when it came to paying our public sector the highest salaries in the world.

At least if that money had of been spent on completing the original DART plan we would have something today other than holiday homes for school teachers and Garda.

As for the country only being 90 years old gimmie a break. Look what some of the Eastern European countries have achieved with their infrastructure since 1990. Also look at Portugal, Greece and Turkey. All poorer than Ireland yet metros and high speed rail lines were built.

Well said, completely agree.

Bugnug wrote: »

Why? Dublin is too small. We have a perfectly good bus and light rail system that should be improved and extended. We need to get a grip here folks. We live in a tiny country with a very small population and we simply cannot afford or do not need an underground. What about all of the taxi drivers that rely on visitors to the country to make a living? There seems to be this dissolusionment among Irish people that we are some major economic power house. Travel a little bit folks, most major Industrial countries dont even know we exist.

You've got to be joking?

The bus lanes in the city centre are a joke, and the luas only crawls along and is absolutely packed at peak times. In fact, there's a road near me where they're currently putting in/upgrading a bus lane and cycle tracks, even though this particular road clearly doesn't need a new bus lane as the traffic voulme is so light. The project is costing a few million :eek: , now that's a waste of money!

mike65 · 28-02-2010 01:17PM

Point of Order - how many cities of a million souls have underground systems?

Bugnug · 28-02-2010 01:21PM

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Well said, completely agree.

You've got to be joking?

The bus lanes in the city centre are a joke, and the luas only crawls along and is absolutely packed at peak times. In fact, there's a road near me where they're currently putting in/upgrading a bus lane and cycle tracks, even though this particular road clearly doesn't need a new bus lane as the traffic voulme is so light. The project is costing a few million :eek: , now that's a waste of money!

So you think it would make more sense to spend circa €10 Billion on something that this city does not need?

Johnny Utah · 28-02-2010 01:32PM

Bugnug wrote: »

So you think it would make more sense to spend circa €10 Billion on something that this city does not need?

Who said it would cost €10bn?

We could start off with one line underground and then expand the network in future years. The underground Dart interconnecter sounds like a great idea and I think when people see the difference between an underground dart and the overground Luas which has to stop at junctions and crawl through the city centre, people will realise the mistake in not putting the Luas underground from day one. Anyway, as others have said, the plans for an underground network should have been implemented in the late 80s / early 90s and the project could have been funded by the EU, but because of backhanders and corrupt politicians we are now left with a mess of a public transport system.

Johnny Utah · 28-02-2010 01:33PM

mike65 wrote: »

Point of Order - how many cities of a million souls have underground systems?

Dublin has a population of more than a million and it is expected to have a poulation of 2 million by 2020.

Bugnug · 28-02-2010 01:35PM

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Who said it would cost €10bn?

We could start off with one line underground and then expand the network in future years. The underground Dart interconnecter sounds like a great idea and I think when people see the difference between an underground dart and the overground Luas which has to stop at junctions and crawl through the city centre, people will realise the mistake in not putting the Luas underground from day one. Anyway, as others have said, the plans for an underground network should have been implemented in the late 80s / early 90s and the project could have been funded by the EU, but because of backhanders and corrupt politicians we are now left with a mess of a public transport system.

Thats the estimated cost. I my eyes huge infrastructural spend like that should show real benefit to the country. Remember this is mine and your tax money. What benefit would an underground system be to a city the size of Dublin?

corktina · 28-02-2010 01:48PM

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Dublin has a population of more than a million and it is expected to have a poulation of 2 million by 2020.

lets start with the UK.London, Glascow, Liverpool (sort of) then theres???.....well Manchester and Sheffield make do with trams errr...Ebinburgh, Bristol, Cardiff ...Heavy rail and buses.....Newcastle has its metro (like our Dart) .I would venture that all those are bigger than Dublin

What is needed in Dublin is to reduce the car numbers freeing up the roads for improved Bus services ( and more Luas lines possibly)

Why doesn't Dublin have an underground metro?

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