Why doesn't Dublin have an underground metro?

Johnny Utah

I think the Luas should really have been put underground to allow it to move faster in the city centre.

Anyone else agree?

L1011

Because we haven't got planning permission for it yet. Either of the underground lines, that is.

noelfirl

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I think the Luas should really have been put underground to allow it to move faster in the city centre.

Anyone else agree?

Feel free to blame the government of late 90's - early 00's who backed out of the original plan which if I remember correctly was for Luas Green to go underground in the city centre, re-emerging somewhere around Ballymun and continuing to the airport.

ronaneire

Like a lot of things in this Country... Bureaucracy, red tape and money.
Why not go back and blame governments of the 70's and 80's too?
I suppose why will always be the question.

Johnny Utah

noelfirl wrote: »

Feel free to blame the government of late 90's - early 00's who backed out of the original plan which if I remember correctly was for Luas Green to go underground in the city centre, re-emerging somewhere around Ballymun and continuing to the airport.

That's sounds like a great idea, they should have gone ahead with that plan. They will probably dig up the Luas in about 50 years' time and put it underground (at a huge cost). Why can't they get important infrastructure right the first time round in this country?

Outkast_IRE

And the best part is that if we had the plans submitted and issues sorted in time in the early 90s then the EU would of provided a huge amount of the funding instead we missed the deadline the and the government came up with a series of half assed ideas every few years since

GerardKeating

noelfirl wrote: »

Feel free to blame the government of late 90's - early 00's who backed out of the original plan which if I remember correctly was for Luas Green to go underground in the city centre, re-emerging somewhere around Ballymun and continuing to the airport.

Or the Government of the 80#s who scrapped plans for a DART network...

Run_to_da_hills

With the amount spent on the Port Tunnel they could have had several undergrounds leaving the heart of the city. :mad:

I can remember an old CIE freebee paper in the early 70ies that predicted an underground rail via Grafton St to be ready by 1995

Ham'nd'egger

The primary reasons why we don't have underground railways are long term money and economic wealth, population and the lay of the city. Dublin has not had enough of the first two to justify an underground while the spread out nature of Dublin makes it more pricey to plan lines.

NOELFIRL wrote:

Feel free to blame the government of late 90's - early 00's who backed out of the original plan which if I remember correctly was for Luas Green to go underground in the city centre, re-emerging somewhere around Ballymun and continuing to the airport.

After Bruton's government lost the General Election of 1997, the Public Inquiry was adjourned as the incoming Cabinet commissioned a report to investigate the case for an underground section of LUAS from the Green to the Airport via Broadstone. The report was made by W S Atkins in April 1998 and found in favour of an overground alignment but the Government rejected it. As a result, CIE withdrew it's initial Light Rail Order Application (This is the planning permission required to construct the line along with dealing with CPO's) and applied for three sections; Tallaght-Abbey Street, Green-Sandyford (This had since been extended from it's initial terminus at Balally) and Abbey Street-Connolly.

The delay in this chance of routing meant that the Public Inquiries only convened in January 1999 with a Railway Order only being made for the Tallaght line that September. In July 2000 Minister O'Rourke announced that the Sandyford line was to be built as a PPP with construction only beginning in late 2001, some 2 years behind schedule.

It's worth mentioning that without this delay, the section to Connolly and the IFSC area may not have seen fruition for several years afterwards so rail connection to LUAS and Busaras would only have been made at Heuston, equally laughable as the 2 years delay in construction.

FlameoftheWest

Bertie was instrumental in preveting the Luas underground section doing a favour for his city centre retailer buddies. The very muppets who are now demanding more Luas lines. You have to wonder about the psychology of so called business men who object to a machine which brings millions and millions of potential cutsomers to their shops for the next 100 years.

But that's what they did.

ronaldoshaky

they wont be able to afford it will they?

MJohnston

Would using a lane of each bore of the DPT be too dangerous or infeasible for some other reason?

Ham'nd'egger

MJohnston wrote: »

Would using a lane of each bore of the DPT be too dangerous or infeasible for some other reason?

Yes it would be unfeasible. Something to do with a Motorway in the way:)

MJohnston

I'm sure they could come up with some way around that, any practical, political or physical problems though?

Ham'nd'egger

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm sure they could come up with some way around that, any practical, political or physical problems though?

Yes, the Motorway. The M 50 would be compromised with a railway throughout it's length which defeats the entire purpose of a motorway. The tunnel is also too steep in places for a line to traverse.

MJohnston

Okay but they could easily take away motorway classification from the Port Tunnel, its not as if it would matter if it was the M50 or another name. Steep inclines are a real reason though, are they steeper than say the incline from Heuston to James Street? I've driven the tunnel a lot before, but its hard to judge the inclines because you've got nothing to compare it to.

Ham'nd'egger

MJohnston wrote: »

Okay but they could easily take away motorway classification from the Port Tunnel, its not as if it would matter if it was the M50 or another name. Steep inclines are a real reason though, are they steeper than say the incline from Heuston to James Street? I've driven the tunnel a lot before, but its hard to judge the inclines because you've got nothing to compare it to.

The incline you mention (Steevens Lane) has a slow speed limit throughout (it may well be just 20 Km/h) and isn't a through route for cars. It's not a long climb whereas much of the DPT is at sharp inclines no matter what bore you travel through it's length.

Safety access is also a factor and this can't be assured unless it's a dedicated route. You then have the matter of the M1/M50 junction at the northern end to deal with which.

patmar

It always amazes me the amount of people who think money grows on trees. This State is barely 90 years old and we started without a penny in our pockets, we had to borrow was it £6m from the few industries we had at the time to get the country moving. We have come a long way since and the Ireland today is transformed. Now some will say we wasted the so-called Celtic Tiger and will also start the political game. But does anyone ever stop to think of the TOTAL amount we would need to do all the things every corner of society clamours for ? How much would the Metro cost, how much is needed to sort out the health service, how much is needed to cure our awful 16% poverty rate, how much is needed for education. The list could go on and on and on and the end result would be hundreds of billions needed.
Someone is keeping a big secret about those money trees !

FlameoftheWest

patmar wrote: »

It always amazes me the amount of people who think money grows on trees. This State is barely 90 years old and we started without a penny in our pockets, we had to borrow was it £6m from the few industries we had at the time to get the country moving. We have come a long way since and the Ireland today is transformed. Now some will say we wasted the so-called Celtic Tiger and will also start the political game. But does anyone ever stop to think of the TOTAL amount we would need to do all the things every corner of society clamours for ? How much would the Metro cost, how much is needed to sort out the health service, how much is needed to cure our awful 16% poverty rate, how much is needed for education. The list could go on and on and on and the end result would be hundreds of billions needed.
Someone is keeping a big secret about those money trees !

Money was no object when it came to paying our public sector the highest salaries in the world.

At least if that money had of been spent on completing the original DART plan we would have something today other than holiday homes for school teachers and Garda.

As for the country only being 90 years old gimmie a break. Look what some of the Eastern European countries have achieved with their infrastructure since 1990. Also look at Portugal, Greece and Turkey. All poorer than Ireland yet metros and high speed rail lines were built.

D.L.R.

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Money was no object when it came to paying our public sector the highest salaries in the world.

At least if that money had of been spent on completing the original DART plan we would have something today other than holiday homes for school teachers and Garda.

As for the country only being 90 years old gimmie a break. Look what some of the Eastern European countries have achieved with their infrastructure since 1990. Also look at Portugal, Greece and Turkey. All poorer than Ireland yet metros and high speed rail lines were built.

Completely agree. Tired of all the poor mouth excuses at this stage - we've just squandered the biggest boom in our history theres no dressing that up any other way.

Bugnug

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I think the Luas should really have been put underground to allow it to move faster in the city centre.

Anyone else agree?

Why? Dublin is too small. We have a perfectly good bus and light rail system that should be improved and extended. We need to get a grip here folks. We live in a tiny country with a very small population and we simply cannot afford or do not need an underground. What about all of the taxi drivers that rely on visitors to the country to make a living? There seems to be this dissolusionment among Irish people that we are some major economic power house. Travel a little bit folks, most major Industrial countries dont even know we exist.

Roryhy

Bugnug wrote: »

Why? Dublin is too small. We have a perfectly good bus and light rail system that should be improved and extended. We need to get a grip here folks. We live in a tiny country with a very small population and we simply cannot afford or do not need an underground. What about all of the taxi drivers that rely on visitors to the country to make a living? There seems to be this dissolusionment among Irish people that we are some major economic power house. Travel a little bit folks, most major Industrial countries dont even know we exist.

Ireland has had an inferiority complex for too long, we can afford and should proceed with major infrastructural projects such as interconnector and metro.

Do i remember there being provision for the St Stephens green Luas line to be put underground from near Charlemont stop in to the green, where it could link up with the metro and the entire line be then be used as metro?

D.L.R.

Bugnug wrote: »

Why? Dublin is too small. We have a perfectly good bus and light rail system that should be improved and extended. We need to get a grip here folks. We live in a tiny country with a very small population and we simply cannot afford or do not need an underground. What about all of the taxi drivers that rely on visitors to the country to make a living? There seems to be this dissolusionment among Irish people that we are some major economic power house. Travel a little bit folks, most major Industrial countries dont even know we exist.

We're PLANNING TO BUILD a metro system. The point is its a decade late. Dublin is exactly the right size for a metro system in population terms, the rest of Ireland don't come into it.

Bugnug

D.L.R. wrote: »

We're PLANNING TO BUILD a metro system. The point is its a decade late. Dublin is exactly the right size for a metro system in population terms, the rest of Ireland don't come into it.

I think there a far more important issues on the agenda than a metro that we dont need or cant afford. I live in Dublin and I can walk from one end of the city to the other in around an hour. Try doing that in Paris, London, NY etc. We dont need an underground. We need to sort out our health service, our unemployment. We need to invest in indigenous industry to create a real and substanial export indusrty. We need to put people back in jobs. A little bit of imagination from the department of transport is what is needed to improve our public transport system, more bus corridors, extended luas and dart lines, more train services. This would cost a fraction of an underground that would not make a blind bit of difference to our economy or quality of lives a bit like the port tunnel, what a waste of money but it did provide some great media shots for Bertie et al.

Johnny Utah

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Money was no object when it came to paying our public sector the highest salaries in the world.

At least if that money had of been spent on completing the original DART plan we would have something today other than holiday homes for school teachers and Garda.

As for the country only being 90 years old gimmie a break. Look what some of the Eastern European countries have achieved with their infrastructure since 1990. Also look at Portugal, Greece and Turkey. All poorer than Ireland yet metros and high speed rail lines were built.

Well said, completely agree.

Bugnug wrote: »

Why? Dublin is too small. We have a perfectly good bus and light rail system that should be improved and extended. We need to get a grip here folks. We live in a tiny country with a very small population and we simply cannot afford or do not need an underground. What about all of the taxi drivers that rely on visitors to the country to make a living? There seems to be this dissolusionment among Irish people that we are some major economic power house. Travel a little bit folks, most major Industrial countries dont even know we exist.

You've got to be joking?

The bus lanes in the city centre are a joke, and the luas only crawls along and is absolutely packed at peak times. In fact, there's a road near me where they're currently putting in/upgrading a bus lane and cycle tracks, even though this particular road clearly doesn't need a new bus lane as the traffic voulme is so light. The project is costing a few million :eek: , now that's a waste of money!

mike65

Point of Order - how many cities of a million souls have underground systems?

Bugnug

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Well said, completely agree.








You've got to be joking?

The bus lanes in the city centre are a joke, and the luas only crawls along and is absolutely packed at peak times. In fact, there's a road near me where they're currently putting in/upgrading a bus lane and cycle tracks, even though this particular road clearly doesn't need a new bus lane as the traffic voulme is so light. The project is costing a few million :eek: , now that's a waste of money!

So you think it would make more sense to spend circa €10 Billion on something that this city does not need?

Johnny Utah

Bugnug wrote: »

So you think it would make more sense to spend circa €10 Billion on something that this city does not need?

Who said it would cost €10bn?

We could start off with one line underground and then expand the network in future years. The underground Dart interconnecter sounds like a great idea and I think when people see the difference between an underground dart and the overground Luas which has to stop at junctions and crawl through the city centre, people will realise the mistake in not putting the Luas underground from day one. Anyway, as others have said, the plans for an underground network should have been implemented in the late 80s / early 90s and the project could have been funded by the EU, but because of backhanders and corrupt politicians we are now left with a mess of a public transport system.

Johnny Utah

mike65 wrote: »

Point of Order - how many cities of a million souls have underground systems?

Dublin has a population of more than a million and it is expected to have a poulation of 2 million by 2020.

Bugnug

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Who said it would cost €10bn?

We could start off with one line underground and then expand the network in future years. The underground Dart interconnecter sounds like a great idea and I think when people see the difference between an underground dart and the overground Luas which has to stop at junctions and crawl through the city centre, people will realise the mistake in not putting the Luas underground from day one. Anyway, as others have said, the plans for an underground network should have been implemented in the late 80s / early 90s and the project could have been funded by the EU, but because of backhanders and corrupt politicians we are now left with a mess of a public transport system.

Thats the estimated cost. I my eyes huge infrastructural spend like that should show real benefit to the country. Remember this is mine and your tax money. What benefit would an underground system be to a city the size of Dublin?

corktina

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Dublin has a population of more than a million and it is expected to have a poulation of 2 million by 2020.

lets start with the UK.London, Glascow, Liverpool (sort of) then theres???.....well Manchester and Sheffield make do with trams errr...Ebinburgh, Bristol, Cardiff ...Heavy rail and buses.....Newcastle has its metro (like our Dart) .I would venture that all those are bigger than Dublin

What is needed in Dublin is to reduce the car numbers freeing up the roads for improved Bus services ( and more Luas lines possibly)

JHMEG

patmar wrote: »

We have come a long way since and the Ireland today is transformed.

And much of it has been the wrong way, not just in context of public transport but also in the provision of services.

One third of the population live in rural one-off housing. Provision of services is difficult and expensive and requires the other two thirds of the population to unfairly subsidise the one third.

Dublin has the most idiotic planning policies in the western world. No high rise because of the mystical Dublin skyline (cranes?), but it's ok to move 100,000 people into low density housing off out in Dublin 15.

Aard

Different cities do different things with their underground systems. In Paris, the Metro is largely within Paris 75 (the RER is like our Dart, extending to the urban area limits). In London, however, the Tube goes all the way out to towns outside the urban area limits.

There's a lot of scope in how to implement a system. I think that when people hear "Dublin Metro", they think about long lines going as far out as Swords, and apply it to other areas outside the urban limits too. Yes, this is one option, but there are others too. What about having one line going N-S from Drumcondra to Ranelagh, and another going W-E from Heuston to Docklands? These would be short lines, capable of funnelling all suburban traffic straight into the CBD. No more lines of busses going down O'Connell St, and no more Luas stopping at every corner on its way to Connolly.

Such a system would would keep happy those who say that Dublin isn't dense enough for underground rail, as well as those who don't want sprawling lines into the suburbs.




(For another option, check out the Premetro systems in Brussels and Antwerp. Basically a Luas that goes underground in the CBD.)

irishguy

Dublin defiantly needs an underground, but only within the canals. Outside of that then it should be road level or grade separated to improve reliability/speed. If you compare Vancouver to Dublin
Vancouver city
Area: 114.67 km2
Population: 578,041
Density: 5,335/km2

Dublin City
Area:114.99 km2
Population: 505,739
Density: 4,398/km2

(Taken from WikiPedia)

They are nearly the same size and Vancouver has a excellent public transport system , only 3 lines with the city centre underground and the rest of the network grade separated. All the buses then feed the rail stations that are further out and there are only a few buses that enter the city. There is no reason why we couldn't do this in 6/7 years.

Bugnug

Bugnug wrote: »

This would cost a fraction of an underground that would not make a blind bit of difference to our economy or quality of lives a bit like the port tunnel, what a waste of money but it did provide some great media shots for Bertie et al.

While the DPT did cost an insane amount of money, looking at the Malahide Road in Fairview last Thursday proved to me that the tunnel is necessary. Absolute gridlock and I'd say it was dangerous too. I certainly wouldn't have liked to be driving through Fairview with those HGVs around.

amacachi

When I was in DCU the Tunnel was closed once and I had to cross the road at Whitehall. Very strange suddenly being surrounded by Lorries.

Empire o de Sun

There has been too much political interference with public transport.

There have been many proposals for rail in the city.

Dublin Metropolitan Railway between Pearse (Then Westland Row) and Heuston (Kingsbridge)

That was overground

then there was a proposal for two underground lines going from
Heuston to Connolly

and

Broadstone to Harcourt Street.

they would have intersected around O'Connell Street.

Then there was in the 70's a plan for a Transport Centre in present Temple Bar

Empire o de Sun

Of course there is the brand thing

do we need so many "brands" for transport in dublin

DART
Luas
Metro (underground tram)

The DART name is supposed to mean "Dublin Area Rapid Transit"

Metrostar

Bugnug wrote: »

I think there a far more important issues on the agenda than a metro that we dont need or cant afford. I live in Dublin and I can walk from one end of the city to the other in around an hour. Try doing that in Paris, London, NY etc. We dont need an underground. We need to sort out our health service, our unemployment. We need to invest in indigenous industry to create a real and substanial export indusrty. We need to put people back in jobs. A little bit of imagination from the department of transport is what is needed to improve our public transport system, more bus corridors, extended luas and dart lines, more train services. This would cost a fraction of an underground that would not make a blind bit of difference to our economy or quality of lives a bit like the port tunnel, what a waste of money but it did provide some great media shots for Bertie et al.

We need a metro to get Dublin mobile for the 21st century and we need the jobs stimulus that a metro project provides. Buses and tram lines are inferior short term solutions, they are not as environmentally efficient and from the end user perspective they are less reliable, have less capacity and offer inferior journey times.

Be ambitious for Ireland. Strategically positioned on the global map, English-speaking, a good education system, and with a flexible economy that can grow as quickly as it can slip into recession, the time is right for Ireland to step up a gear. But to attract interational talent (and retain domestic talent) Dublin must offer a world class quality of life to her citizens.

Bus corridors and a few decent hospitals are all ok, but without a functioning metro system, the city just stays a backwater, a symbol of a broader malaise.

Metrostar

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Of course there is the brand thing

do we need so many "brands" for transport in dublin

DART
Luas
Metro (underground tram)

The DART name is supposed to mean "Dublin Area Rapid Transit"

Every city has its brands. That's what distinguishes one service from another. You cannot pretend that the DART, originally designed as a seaside pleasure railway, is in any way comparable to a fully segregated underground strategic urban metro line.

Andrew33

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I think the Luas should really have been put underground to allow it to move faster in the city centre.

Anyone else agree?

Why we don't need it.

At the rate the economy is shrinking and people are leaving the country there'll be nobody left to use it;)

cable842

I think that it should be blocked off from public walking across and running in front of the luas.

The amount of people ever year that get injured by it.

Johnny Utah wrote: »

I think the Luas should really have been put underground to allow it to move faster in the city centre.

Anyone else agree?

Empire o de Sun

Also, if the port was moved to north of Balbriggan a heavy rail line could be built from the Belfast main line to the central reservation of the M1 north of Swords, follow the M1 to the Tunnel, use the tunnel (now closed to vehicles) and then build a new terminal for intercity rail near the Docklands Station.

The existing line through north dublin could be dedicated to a frequent high capacity line that would connect through the interconnector to Hazelhatch.

L1011

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Dublin has a population of more than a million and it is expected to have a poulation of 2 million by 2020.

...covering a land area most cities would have 5 million in.

The UK only has two and two halfs of underground system in its cities (Liverpool and Newcastle contribute the halfs). Birmingham, a massive conurbation that dwarves Dublin, has 1 tram line and lots of buses, thats all.

L1011

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Also, if the port was moved to north of Balbriggan a heavy rail line could be built from the Belfast main line to the central reservation of the M1 north of Swords, follow the M1 to the Tunnel, use the tunnel (now closed to vehicles) and then build a new terminal for intercity rail near the Docklands Station.

The existing line through north dublin could be dedicated to a frequent high capacity line that would connect through the interconnector to Hazelhatch.

What part of "the tunnel is too steep for a rail alignment" don't you get? It can't be used for rail, heavy or light. Its a ROAD tunnel, thats all it was designed for.

There is also no central reservation worth speaking of from the Airport RAB, certainly not enough for two Irish gauge railway lines to go in. Quit dreaming.

D.L.R.

Bugnug wrote: »

What benefit would an underground system be to a city the size of Dublin?

Uh.. More trade. More money. More population. Bigger city. Bigger economy. Better competitiveness. More jobs. Wealthier Ireland.

This country will not progress without proper investment in infrastructure. That includes fixing public transport in the capital as an absolute priority.

DingChavez

Dublin doesn't have an underground because the country is run by imbeciles.

FlameoftheWest

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Also, if the port was moved to north of Balbriggan a heavy rail line could be built from the Belfast main line to the central reservation of the M1 north of Swords, follow the M1 to the Tunnel, use the tunnel (now closed to vehicles) and then build a new terminal for intercity rail near the Docklands Station.

The existing line through north dublin could be dedicated to a frequent high capacity line that would connect through the interconnector to Hazelhatch.

Just when you think you have reached the limits of the "Oirish" mentality this comes along...

Slice

Nobody seems to have addressed the question about why an underground would be better or necessarily considered better? Especially in relation to cost.

Personally, I've loathed every underground network I've traveled on and think they should only exist where absolutely necessary. It might be justifiable in the city centre if the objective is to construct an entirely segregated rail network but otherwise where is the justification?

Even in the case of Metro North I really hope they don't put it underground in Ballymun when there's plenty of space at much less cost to put it above ground.

FlameoftheWest

DingChavez wrote: »

Dublin doesn't have an underground because the country is run by imbeciles.

True, but the real issue is that Dublin is not represented by people who do not come form an urban background. The majority of TDs and Ministers who oversee the city's development have grown up in rural townlands were urban life is as alien to them as life on Mars. Dublin has no metro because they can't envision how a 9 year old farmer's son can drive a tractor and slurry speader through it.

FlameoftheWest

Slice wrote: »

Nobody seems to have addressed the question about why an underground would be better or necessarily considered better? Especially in relation to cost.

Personally, I've loathed every underground network I've traveled on and think they should only exist where absolutely necessary. It might be justifiable in the city centre if the objective is to construct an entirely segregated rail network but otherwise where is the justification?

Even in the case of Metro North I really hope they don't put it underground in Ballymun when there's plenty of space at much less cost to put it above ground.

So let me see if I am reading this correctly? You do not like undergrounds perrsonally, so Dublin should not have one...:rolleyes: