Dublin Docklands Rail Station

Son of Stupido · 24-02-2010 04:19PM #1

Does anyone use the station? How well connected is it to the city centre now the luas has opened?

It was only ever meant to be temporary, and will go with the new interconector.....

DWCommuter · 24-02-2010 05:37PM

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Does anyone use the station? How well connected is it to the city centre now the luas has opened?

It was only ever meant to be temporary, and will go with the new interconector.....

Effectively it was built to aid traffic from the Dunboyne/Pace line when it opens. However it was compromised by CIEs involvement with the commercial development of Spencer Dock. Therefore, its in the wrong place and its integration with the luas is extremely poor considering the area was a brownfield site. It would appear that CIE forged ahead with building commercial developments on the site without any due condideration for how it could be used effectively for rail. Add to that the complete lack of coordination with the RPA and the whole thing is laughable.

BostonB · 24-02-2010 06:42PM

The docklands train always seems to be half empty even at peak. Unless you work beside it, its not really useful for anywhere else. If they put some secure bicycle parking near it, it might help. I get it sometime when I don't feel like being a sardine on the maynooth train. But its a 30 min walk to work from the station for me.

For a while I considered getting a foldup bike and using that station. But in the time it takes me to do that, I'd have cycled in from D.15 anyway on a regular bike. Or driven.

Carawaystick · 24-02-2010 10:01PM

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Does anyone use the station? How well connected is it to the city centre now the luas has opened?

It was only ever meant to be temporary, and will go with the new interconector.....

It *is* in the city centre. Martin Cullen said so when it opened.
Not that he knew that the statement was untrue, it could have been an "honest mistake"

There's a dublin bikes stand at the north side of Seán O'Casey bridge, if there was one near where you work then that'd cut some time off.

BostonB · 25-02-2010 12:59AM

Haven't done it too often, but anytime I've passed it in the morning that Dublin Bike stand is empty.

KC61 · 25-02-2010 10:07AM

Son of Stupido wrote: »

Does anyone use the station? How well connected is it to the city centre now the luas has opened?

It was only ever meant to be temporary, and will go with the new interconector.....

Docklands Station is now planned to be a permanent fixture and will not "go with the new interconnector".

JHMEG · 25-02-2010 11:18AM

KC61 wrote: »

Docklands Station is now planned to be a permanent fixture and will not "go with the new interconnector".

Where could we read about that?

The original planning permission requires it to be removed and the area turned into some sort of urban park. Has a fresh PP application been lodged?

Son of Stupido · 25-02-2010 11:27AM

The Docklands Station has 8 trains a day to Clonsilla to connect with the maynooth train.

When the Interconnector is built trains from Maynooth will run to Pearse where they will interchange with trains using the interconector from Howth/Malahide to Kildare.

There will be no need for trains to go to Clonsilla to connect with the Maynooth train.

The station will be redundant

JHMEG · 25-02-2010 11:46AM

Just a minor technicality: The Docklands trains don't connect with the Maynooth trains at Clonsilla, the same as the Sligo trains don't connect with the Maynooth trains in Maynooth. If they appear to connect it is only by chance.

noelfirl · 25-02-2010 11:50AM

Son of Stupido wrote: »

The station will be redundant

AIUI trains from Pace (and maybe eventually Navan) will be directed to Docklands.

KC61 · 25-02-2010 12:15PM

In 2007 and early 2008 there was a huge spat between the Chairman of CIE and the RPA when out of the blue CIE announced plans to reopen Broadstone.

Eventually the Minister got involved and came down in favour of the RPA.

Here is the report from the Irish Times:

Wednesday, 6 February 2008
Dempsey derails ambitious CIÉ plan and opts for new Luas line
Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey last night informed CIÉ that it will have to drop ambitious plans for a heavy rail hub at Broadstone in Dublin in favour of a Luas line under the aegis of the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA), The Irish Times has established.

The key Broadstone depot - located a short distance from the quays in the northside of the city - has been the subject of what has been, in effect, a "turf war" between CIÉ and the RPA. Both agencies have wrangled over how it should be utilised in the future - at one stage CIÉ denied the other transport agency access to the site, prompting then minister Martin Cullen to make a personal intervention.

The site was earmarked for a Luas-type operation as far back as 1996 with plans to set up a new extension using the old Broadstone railway alignment, which is no longer in use.

But last summer, CIÉ submitted an alternative plan for Broadstone as a transport hub for heavy-duty rail. The blueprint was ambitious in scope.

Broadstone would become a new rail depot that would serve intercity trains from Galway along with commuter services from Maynooth, Navan and Kildare.

CIÉ said the expansion of Broadstone was vital to cater for significant expansion in rail services and huge increases in passenger numbers. It would also ease the pressure on Connolly Station.

But The Irish Times has learned that Mr Dempsey wrote to all the transport agencies yesterday informing them that he intends to allow the RPA to proceed with planning the Luas line along the agreed alignment using Broadstone.

In the letter, Mr Dempsey also mandated CIÉ to make an early application for planning permission to retain its dockland station on a permanent basis.

The dockland station was expected to be operational for 10 years but the upshot of Mr Dempsey's decision is that it will now be made permanent, and will become the station catering for commuter services from Maynooth, Navan and Kildare.

The Minister's decision was based on a study he commissioned from specialist consultants Booz Hamilton Allen (BHA) on the CIÉ plans.

Using traffic projection models, BHA concluded that a heavy-rail depot at Broadstone was not required and that a permanent dockland railway station would comfortably accommodate commuter rail services.

The CIÉ plans were predicated on projected population increases based on Central Statistics Office data.

However, BHA concluded that even with the largest projected increase in rail traffic, a heavy rail hub at Broadstone, was not required.

The Irish Times

The station will be far busier in the coming years as all services on the line to/from Pace are planned to operate to/from Docklands.

At JHMEG and Son of Stupido - this was discussed to death at the time here on Boards - if you do a search you'll find plenty on it!

Son of Stupido · 25-02-2010 06:11PM

I bet you will find the Navan trains using the interconnector, or connolly until electrification.

Son of Stupido · 25-02-2010 06:17PM

My main point in starting this thread was to ask how useful is the Docklands Station to Dublin given it will be replaced by an underground station 100m away with direct connecton to Luas.

What was planned as a temporary Station is now (if you believe some people) going to become permanent, with routes redirected to it.

Is this a good example of how a city like Dublin should be developing its public transport?

The Broadstone / CIE / RPA row is a different issue....the Docklands Station a consequence of such.

JHMEG · 25-02-2010 06:23PM

Planning permission is hardly guaranteed. IE have been turned down before.

Aard · 25-02-2010 06:33PM

The new Dublin Mayor position will have an emphasis on transport. S/he may decide that the current Docklands station isn't in keeping with optimal mobility for the city.

noelfirl · 25-02-2010 06:40PM

Son of Stupido wrote: »

I bet you will find the Navan trains using the interconnector, or connolly until electrification.

There is no intention of electrifying to Navan in early to medium term. Pace possibly, but not Navan.

etchyed · 26-02-2010 12:10AM

Son of Stupido wrote: »

I bet you will find the Navan trains using the interconnector, or connolly until electrification.

There won't be access to the interconnector from the Navan line. Even if it was hypothetically electrified (or hypothetically built for that matter) it would form part of a Maynooth/Navan - Bray/Greystones DART line.

loyatemu · 26-02-2010 12:29AM

etchyed wrote: »

There won't be access to the interconnector from the Navan line.

I'd be very surprised if there isn't - the lines from Fairview, Drumcondra and the Canal line all converge together right where the portal is going to be - it'd be crazy not to give them all access to the tunnel.

etchyed · 26-02-2010 12:43AM

loyatemu wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if there isn't - the lines from Fairview, Drumcondra and the Canal line all converge together right where the portal is going to be - it'd be crazy not to give them all access to the tunnel.

My bad, suppose that would be pretty crazy. Although I still don't think they'd ever send trains from Pace/Navan into the Interconnector, since they seem to want to keep the two DART lines entirely separate to simplify things.

KC61 · 26-02-2010 01:52AM

loyatemu wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if there isn't - the lines from Fairview, Drumcondra and the Canal line all converge together right where the portal is going to be - it'd be crazy not to give them all access to the tunnel.

The plans as laid out specifically did not link the Interconnector with the line to Drumcondra and the Canal line.

Of course this may change....

HeritageRailway · 26-02-2010 11:59AM

DWCommuter wrote: »

Effectively it was built to aid traffic from the Dunboyne/Pace line when it opens. However it was compromised by CIEs involvement with the commercial development of Spencer Dock. Therefore, its in the wrong place and its integration with the luas is extremely poor considering the area was a brownfield site. It would appear that CIE forged ahead with building commercial developments on the site without any due condideration for how it could be used effectively for rail. Add to that the complete lack of coordination with the RPA and the whole thing is laughable.

This isn't the case in relation to the stations location.

The site closer to Spencer dock wasn't considered as the proposed underground DART station will require some cut and cover excavation at this location which would mean any overground station would need to be closed and relocated. There was also the matter of a Luas bridge that made said site even tighter to work with.

No less than two Luas stops are located circa 500 metres from Docklands. This is hardly a shockingly long walk while a high frequency bus route (151) also serves the heavy railway station and links one to the DART, LUAS and city centre if need be. The Luas stops are located with local car access into office and apartment blocks in mind so there is little scope for these to move.

paulm17781 · 26-02-2010 12:06PM

HeritageRailway wrote: »

The site closer to Spencer dock wasn't considered as the proposed underground DART station will require some cut and cover excavation at this location which would mean any overground station would need to be closed and relocated. There was also the matter of a Luas bridge that made said site even tighter to work with.

And you're saying there was no way around this?

HeritageRailway wrote: »

No less than two Luas stops are located circa 500 metres from Docklands. This is hardly a shockingly long walk while a high frequency bus route (151) also serves the heavy railway station and links one to the DART, LUAS and city centre if need be. The Luas stops are located with local car access into office and apartment blocks in mind so there is little scope for these to move.

It's still a half baked job. This could have been done well, integrated and connected to the PPT / Kidare line, the way it was supposed to. Instead we got a station that people think is miles from everywhere.

DWCommuter · 26-02-2010 12:29PM

HeritageRailway wrote: »

This isn't the case in relation to the stations location.

The site closer to Spencer dock wasn't considered as the proposed underground DART station will require some cut and cover excavation at this location which would mean any overground station would need to be closed and relocated. There was also the matter of a Luas bridge that made said site even tighter to work with.

No less than two Luas stops are located circa 500 metres from Docklands. This is hardly a shockingly long walk while a high frequency bus route (151) also serves the heavy railway station and links one to the DART, LUAS and city centre if need be. The Luas stops are located with local car access into office and apartment blocks in mind so there is little scope for these to move.

Let me enlighten you if I may.

Everything you discuss is based on a time when the site was already compromised by development. A compromise that CIE partook in as they are shareholders in the SDDC. (Spencer Dock Development Company) The current station is sited along the canal as a few hundred metres east is the proposed site for the interconnector portal. (apparently) This is the Spencer Dock North site.

On the other side of Sheriff st bridge is the Spencer Dock South site. The development of this site was granted planning permission in 2003. (the current site of PWC and the Convention centre among others. It is in this area that the Docklands station should have been sited and perhaps integrated with the commercial development. (to keep everyone happy.) If this kind of planning had been applied then the station would have been accessible to the PPT line, integrated properly with Luas, more central and still leaving the site at Spencer Dock North free for the interconnector portal works.

It is an undeniable misuse of a railway site where commercial development was put first and public transport was clearly treated as an afterthought. There are many many developments around the world (Some of which I showed to the consultancy firm working on behalf of SDCC) that integrate both rail and office blocks to maximum effect.

It is complete and utter stupidity (once you look at the facts) to think that there are excuses for a station that is isolated, not connected to a nearby part of the rail network and badly linked to a multi million euro light rail line.

DWCommuter · 26-02-2010 12:37PM

paulm17781 wrote: »

And you're saying there was no way around this?

It's still a half baked job. This could have been done well, integrated and connected to the PPT / Kidare line, the way it was supposed to. Instead we got a station that people think is miles from everywhere.

In fairness Paul, I don't think people are fully up to speed on what went on in Spencer Dock. We know why the current Docklands station is where it is, but only within the confines of where prioritised commercial development forced it to be built. The sickening aspect is that it was a railway owned site and CIE are now shareholders in the development company.

BostonB · 26-02-2010 12:53PM

HeritageRailway wrote: »

...No less than two Luas stops are located circa 500 metres from Docklands. This is hardly a shockingly long walk while a high frequency bus route (151) also serves the heavy railway station and links one to the DART, LUAS and city centre if need be. The Luas stops are located with local car access into office and apartment blocks in mind so there is little scope for these to move.

Maybe I'm wrong but that 151 seems to have 45~60 min intervals. That doesn't seem high frequency. But maybe I'm reading the timetable wrong.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/151/

I think the problem for the docklands is it not near anything other than the docklands. Theres no real connections to go cross city from it. By connections I mean one where you don't have a significant gap in your journey. Other than the tallaght luas. Which might be useful for some. Its not like Connolly where you can step off a Maynooth train and step on to a dart, with not much of a gap, usually. The lack of connections, is reflected in the lack of passengers on the train, compared to the trains going into connolly.

schemingbohemia · 26-02-2010 01:02PM

read across not down!

i don't understand people not using the docklands train, after all the whinging about the calcutta express people have the option of using a lightly used train where they can connect to a frequent bus service that will bring them to the city centre or shock horror walk a bit!

paulm17781 · 26-02-2010 01:29PM

BostonB wrote: »

I think the problem for the docklands is it not near anything other than the docklands.

Which is no further from the city than Pearse station*. This is what I mean about people thinking it's really far from everything.

*Well, maybe a little further but none of our train stations could be called central.

DWCommuter · 26-02-2010 01:32PM

schemingbohemia wrote: »

read across not down!

i don't understand people not using the docklands train, after all the whinging about the calcutta express people have the option of using a lightly used train where they can connect to a frequent bus service that will bring them to the city centre or shock horror walk a bit!

Trust me. If the luas was integrated with the station, then you have really good connectivity to the city centre and beyond. That walk between Docklands and Luas is a disinsentive. Once again bear in mind that it was all a brownfield site ready to do as we wanted in relation to transport. The excuses do not stack up.

The other travesty is if the interconnector doesn't go ahead. We are stuck with this disjointed and laughable solution. And herein lies another problem. We have planned on the basis of gold plated solutions, whereby none of the 9ct bits are effective enough without the 24ct centrepiece.

KC61 · 26-02-2010 01:42PM

BostonB wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong but that 151 seems to have 45~60 min intervals. That doesn't seem high frequency. But maybe I'm reading the timetable wrong.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/151/

I think the problem for the docklands is it not near anything other than the docklands. Theres no real connections to go cross city from it. By connections I mean one where you don't have a significant gap in your journey. Other than the tallaght luas. Which might be useful for some. Its not like Connolly where you can step off a Maynooth train and step on to a dart, with not much of a gap, usually. The lack of connections, is reflected in the lack of passengers on the train, compared to the trains going into connolly.

The timetable reads across - there is a bus every 15 minutes, along with the number 90 as well.

KC61 · 26-02-2010 01:43PM

paulm17781 wrote: »

Which is no further from the city than Pearse station*. This is what I mean about people thinking it's really far from everything.

*Well, maybe a little further but none of our train stations could be called central.

To a degree you are right - there is a serious perception issue with this that could and should be addressed by the transport companies.

BostonB · 26-02-2010 02:54PM

KC61 wrote: »

The timetable reads across - there is a bus every 15 minutes, along with the number 90 as well.

Doh me.

Dublin Docklands Rail Station

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