More Irish abuse.. and not even the church this time

My name is URL · 19-02-2010 10:30PM #1

http://www.drogheda-independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/surgery-woman-slams-inquiry-refusal-2071628.html

A mother subjected to agonising pelvis-widening surgery has called on Health Minister Mary Harney to spend a day in her pain-ridden body.

Kathleen Naughton said an immediate inquiry would be held into the horrific symphysiotomy procedure if the minister felt her distress for a day.

Ms Harney has refused to hold a review into the controversial operation which was performed on hundreds of pregnant women up to the early 1980s, supposedly to ease delivery of their babies.

Ms Naughton, 58, from Duleek, Co Meath, criticised her decision not to hold an investigation into the pelvis-severing practice, which went on for several decades.

"If she was in my body for one day we'd have the review the next day, that's the truth," she said.

"That day 33 years ago evil hit my body and that evil has not left me - my career, everything has diminished because of what happened to me. The state has neglected us. We're fighting for everything and they're putting all these blocks in front of us."

Campaign group Survivors of Symphysiotomy said the Government had ignored the plight of many mothers left with long-term health problems including incontinence, back pain and depression.

A Department of Health spokesman said the minister had decided a review would not be productive.

"The purpose of conducting a review of health policy or medical practice is primarily to examine past events so as to improve care for patients," he said. In the case of symphysiotomy the practice is now extremely rare in Ireland, having been superseded by caesarean section since the early 1980s."

But Colm MacGeehin, solicitor to 111 mothers who underwent symphysiotomy, said Minister Harney had turned her back on the women and should resign.

How the fcuk can this useless bitch even contemplate refusing to launch an inquiry into what was done to these women without their consent? It's one thing saying that this technique was more widely used than caesarean section at that time, but surely it still required the consent of the patients before it was carried out

No bother to her rushing through populist legislation against head-shops though.. sure that's the real problem with this country :rolleyes:

Biggins · 19-02-2010 10:33PM

Yea, I just mentioned that in the Louth section.

Friday, 19 February 2010 19:49

The Minister for Health has ruled out any review of the use of symphysiotomy in Irish hospitals.
The group Survivors of Symphysiotomy had called on Taoiseach Brian Cowen to initiate an immediate inquiry into use of the pelvis-severing childbirth surgery in Ireland.
Decades after the practice was discontinued in developed countries, symphysiotomies were still carrried out in Irish maternity units.

The development follows last night's RTÉ Prime Time programme, which documented that Ireland is the only country in the developed world where symphysiotomy was widely practiced in the 20th century.
The programme found that these operations were widespread from 1944 to 1983.
The investigation established that 1,500 women underwent the procedure here, which involved sawing through the pelvic bone to assist with childbirth. Patient permission was rarely sought.
It frequently left the women with chronic physical pain and incontinence. The procedure was abandoned in most maternity units in the 1960s, but continued until 1983 in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda.

The survivors' group has called for the removal from office of Minister for Health Mary Harney if she will not order a review of the cases.
The minister said reviews are carried out to improve care for patients and as symphysiotomy was superseded by Caesarean section in the 1980s, any review would not now be productive.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0219/symphysiotomy.html

The Drogheda hospital is the one where other scandals were discovered, yet amazingly the victims to those still have yet to see anything they can call justice!
Its one thing after another with that hospital and Harney is proving to be ineffectual.

...the minister had decided a review would not be productive.

Translated? Schit - another can of worms we don't want to open - after all, we were in charge - again and again!

OutlawPete · 19-02-2010 10:34PM

My name is URL wrote: »

No bother to her rushing through populist legislation against head-shops though.. sure that's the real problem with this country :rolleyes:

Hit the nail on the head.

The only time the government do anything these days is to make it look as if they are doing something, hence the head shops.

Now that this is in the media, they might take some action.

If it's not in the media, they ignore it.

That's why the government are mad set on silencing the media on as many matters as possible, as they can't stand that they are the ones will the real power.

ibarelycare · 19-02-2010 10:37PM

Maybe Joe Duffy should do a campaign on it...then they'll finally take notice :rolleyes:

My name is URL · 19-02-2010 10:40PM

Biggins wrote: »

"The minister decided that a review would not be productive"

That just says it all really.. what productivity does she want? It'd be productive for the people who were put through the ordeal and are now living in pain, at least someone would be held accountable for it

19-02-2010 10:42PM

Maybe not directly the church. But to stop the "temptation of using contraception" you can see that it has alot to do with them.

It's absolutely beyond horrific what happened to these women and that stupid see you next tuesday of a woman won't do anything to get answers. Are we really surprised?

minidazzler · 19-02-2010 10:44PM

OK, I would usually never back up Mary Harney, but WHY should there be a review?

It's not done anymore so it wouldn't change anything!

Someone should be held accountable? Who? Miss Harney? Because she was just a tween when these procedures were standard practice.

Seriously, since it's not done anymore I see no need for a review.

Super-Rush · 19-02-2010 10:48PM

I used to be proud of being Irish.

entropic · 19-02-2010 10:48PM

This is just absolutely mind boggling, just another thing that we will let slip by not holding anyone at blame accountable.

There is too many "Doctors" still practicing that should have their licences revoked for doing this but of course it would be too much of a scandal and we couldn't be having one of those so soon after the last one.

Fear Uladh · 19-02-2010 10:50PM

minidazzler wrote: »

OK, I would usually never back up Mary Harney, but WHY should there be a review?

It's not done anymore so it wouldn't change anything!

Someone should be held accountable? Who? Miss Harney? Because she was just a tween when these procedures were standard practice.

Seriously, since it's not done anymore I see no need for a review.

Thats like saying the christian brothers dont abuse kids anymore so there shouldnt be any reports on that

There should be some sort of support or compensation paid to the victims they are probably struggling with medical bills etc.

Biggins · 19-02-2010 10:52PM

minidazzler wrote: »

OK, I would usually never back up Mary Harney, but WHY should there be a review?
It's not done anymore so it wouldn't change anything!
Someone should be held accountable? Who? Miss Harney? Because she was just a tween when these procedures were standard practice.
Seriously, since it's not done any more I see no need for a review.

I can see your point and it has some merit.
One thing that strikes me is that questions should be asked as to how such a procedure was allowed continue for so long when across Europe and else where, the same practises were abandoned and considered maybe something from the dark ages.
Arising from that, comes the next stage; if such practises that prove to be damaging mentally and physically to the patient, what or where is the safeguards to stop such events/operations happening again in the future or now?

A review is not necessarily about the past but also about the future (in this case, of medicine) and how to safeguard further the right way of doing things and how to halt the bad ways.
It can be a learning process - if only to stop medical litigation and mental/physical pain later on.

My name is URL · 19-02-2010 10:53PM

minidazzler wrote: »

OK, I would usually never back up Mary Harney, but WHY should there be a review?

It's not done anymore so it wouldn't change anything!

Someone should be held accountable? Who? Miss Harney? Because she was just a tween when these procedures were standard practice.

Seriously, since it's not done anymore I see no need for a review.

They shouldn't have been carrying out that procedure in the first place esp without any consent..

Of course someone should be held to account over it.. what does ignoring it achieve, and what message does it send out? "Ah sure do what you have to do, if anyone gets hurt along the way we won't blame you"

Lourdes hospital has been in the spotlight before, so something is systematically wrong in that place

Dr Michael Shine abused a number of kids there, and walked free from court after it.. and 100 women had their wombs removed unnecessarily

brummytom · 19-02-2010 10:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe not directly the church. But to stop the "temptation of using contraception" you can see that it has alot to do with them.

If anything, wouldn't performing an agonising procedure on pregnant women encourage contraception?

ejmaztec · 19-02-2010 10:55PM

Seems to me that the women would have been better treated in a butcher's shop. Talk about third world!

What other primitive bullsh1t's going to come out of the woodwork?

19-02-2010 10:56PM

brummytom wrote: »

If anything, wouldn't performing an agonising procedure on pregnant women encourage contraception?

You would think wouldn't you?
It made it easier to deliver future babies apparently.

The_Minister · 19-02-2010 10:58PM

Biggins wrote: »

Translated? Schit - another can of worms we don't want to open - after all, we were in charge!

So were the opposition.

This isn't a Fianna Fail problem.

pookie82 · 19-02-2010 10:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe not directly the church. But to stop the "temptation of using contraception" you can see that it has alot to do with them.

I only just realised this connection now - hadn't heard this before. Absolutely fcuking unbelievable. Catholic church strikes again:mad:

They believed that women subjected to a caesarean would be encouraged to use contraception - what was their point here? That a c-section was so painful/stressful women wouldn't want anymore kids? Did they think this was a more painless alternative????

Biggins · 19-02-2010 11:00PM

The_Minister wrote: »

So were the opposition.
This isn't a Fianna Fail problem.

To be fair, true part of the time - a tiny part of the time.
As the latter years (and before for a long period) were taken over by the current lot in power, they should have redressed the situation when the rest of Europe dumped the procedure rapidly.
It wasn't as if they weren't around long enough to notice and learn!

You point is accurate and still stands though to be fair.
It is however since FF came to power again and again, something that went on and something that should have been inquired about if only to see justice be done for those of the past, future mistakes and how to safeguard against them with other procedures.

partyatmygaff · 19-02-2010 11:03PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe not directly the church. But to stop the "temptation of using contraception" you can see that it has alot to do with them.

How does a medical procedure have ANYTHING to do with the catholic church? Seriously, they aren't the cause of ALL of Irelands problems despite what you might want to think.

pookie82 · 19-02-2010 11:06PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

How does a medical procedure have ANYTHING to do with the catholic church? Seriously, they aren't the cause of ALL of Irelands problems despite what you might want to think.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/323/7316/809/a

"Many symphysiotomies were done in Roman Catholic countries, because contraception was illegal, even for medical indications, and women might have many caesarean sections with all the inherent risks."

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=16907

"It is believed that the procedure was encouraged by Catholic obstetricians as a birth-facilitating alternative to caesarean section, as it was believed that women facing repeated caesareans for future births might be tempted to use contraception".

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/381

"Is the Taoiseach aware that this procedure, while ostensibly done to deal with obstructed births, was inflicted on women primarily because the hospitals operated under a so-called Catholic ethos whereby surgeons deemed such operations preferable to caesarean sections, after which it was thought women would use contraception or be sterilised to avoid further sections?"

Overheal · 19-02-2010 11:10PM

I wish I could say I was surprised. The only thing that cow is interested in is her own ass as a flotation device.

Gods forbid she should uphold the dignity of her office and be the Minister for Health.

entropic · 19-02-2010 11:12PM

The_Minister wrote: »

So were the opposition.

This isn't a Fianna Fail problem.

Yes it is now, instead of worrying about what it might do to them I am sure their spin doctors can make it look like they are doing a good thing by opening a case on this. They are the ones with the power so it is their responsibility.

K-9 · 19-02-2010 11:22PM

The IMO have serious questions to answer too.

oppenheimer1 · 19-02-2010 11:26PM

My name is URL wrote: »

That just says it all really.. what productivity does she want? It'd be productive for the people who were put through the ordeal and are now living in pain, at least someone would be held accountable for it

The people in charge of the health service between 1960 - 1980 are most certainly retired, if not dead at this stage.

Why are we only hearing about this now? How come a fuss hasn't been kicked up sooner?

MaybeLogic · 19-02-2010 11:26PM

pookie82 wrote: »

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/323/7316/809/a

"Many symphysiotomies were done in Roman Catholic countries, because contraception was illegal, even for medical indications, and women might have many caesarean sections with all the inherent risks."

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=16907

"It is believed that the procedure was encouraged by Catholic obstetricians as a birth-facilitating alternative to caesarean section, as it was believed that women facing repeated caesareans for future births might be tempted to use contraception".

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/381

"Is the Taoiseach aware that this procedure, while ostensibly done to deal with obstructed births, was inflicted on women primarily because the hospitals operated under a so-called Catholic ethos whereby surgeons deemed such operations preferable to caesarean sections, after which it was thought women would use contraception or be sterilised to avoid further sections?"

Turns out the Church had an influence after all.

pookie82 · 19-02-2010 11:28PM

MaybeLogic wrote: »

Turns out the Church had an influence after all.

Just a little:mad:

Fear Uladh · 19-02-2010 11:30PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

How does a medical procedure have ANYTHING to do with the catholic church? Seriously, they aren't the cause of ALL of Irelands problems despite what you might want to think.

Oh they are the cause of a lot of pain. They probably directed the whole thing.

Ihaveanopinion · 19-02-2010 11:33PM

This procedure was done to allow for safe delivery of babies in the context of it being unsafe to perform a C-section. It is still, apparently, done in countries where it is not safe to do a C-section (2nd/3rd world).

This took place 28 years ago.

There is nothing to be gained from an inquiry.

pookie82 · 19-02-2010 11:37PM

Ihaveanopinion wrote: »

This procedure was done to allow for safe delivery of babies in the context of it being unsafe to perform a C-section. It is still, apparently, done in countries where it is not safe to do a C-section (2nd/3rd world).

This took place 28 years ago.

There is nothing to be gained from an inquiry.

Yes but I think the point is that it became a much safer option to perform c-sections here long after this was still being carried out. That's the problem. It was carried out right up until the 80s, when medical advancements meant a c-section was a much safer option and there was no need to put women through this procedure.

Biggins · 19-02-2010 11:37PM

It should be pointed out that the hospital was staffed by the Medical Missionary of Mary organisation for a long period.
While the government of the day looked after the rules, regulations and handed out the cash for procedures, they allowed the Missionary organisation carte-blanch to do what the hell they wanted to - and the question arises also - WHY!

Ihaveanopinion · 19-02-2010 11:43PM

again -- in context - 28 years ago.

an inquiry would cost a lot of money - take a lot of time - and would result in no change in practices because practices have changed a long time ago.

More Irish abuse.. and not even the church this time

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