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Legalise abortion

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  • #512
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I don't think she's thought it through
    I didn't think so either TBH, but felt it was worth pointing out.


  • #513
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    No they aren't human. Just as the egg I dispose of once a month is not.

    Ok, then like I asked what species are they if they are not human?


  • #514
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    RepublicanEagle wrote: »
    You think masturbation is the same as ripping an infant out of a woman's uterus? GTFO and STFU.

    Can you explain to me why it isn't, other than you just don't care about one form of human life but do care about another?


  • #515
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Ok, then like I asked what species are they if they are not human?
    The same species your elbow is.


  • #516
    RepublicanEagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭RepublicanEagle


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Can you explain to me why it isn't, other than you just don't care about one form of human life but do care about another?

    Since you support the fact that masturbation can be compared to taking a person's life.You should be explaining that to me.I await your reply with bated breath.


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  • #517
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Ok, then like I asked what species are they if they are not human?
    I think the principle difference between an egg, sperm or an elbow and a fertilized egg or zygote is that the latter will under normal circumstances and in the right environments develop to become a functional and distinct Homo Sapien.

    On their own, an egg or sperm will never do that. Neither will an elbow.

    Of course, this does not mean that they will become functional and distinct Homo Sapiens - only that under normal circumstances they will. Other times they will not, they will die or otherwise become non-viable somewhere along the way.

    As to environment; this could be a uterus, a nursery or just somewhere where there is plenty of oxygen, water and a food supply - depends upon the point in development.

    To date, while it is a bit of a LCD, it's still the best definition of a 'person' I have come across. I don't think this in itself closes the discussion on abortion though.
    RepublicanEagle wrote: »
    Since you support the fact that masturbation can be compared to taking a person's life.You should be explaining that to me.I await your reply with bated breath.
    He wasn't - he was following the logic of applying the rather fuzzy definition of 'human' to its natural conclusion; simply saying someone or thing is 'human' is pointless - human sperm, human eggs or a human corpse (as I asked you earlier - without response) are all 'human', but we cannot claim that the are or ever will be 'people'.

    If you can't say what you mean, how can you mean what you say?


  • #518
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    The same species your elbow is.

    Which is human, isn't it?


  • #519
    RepublicanEagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭RepublicanEagle


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I've no trouble defending a mother who kills their embryo.

    I killed approx 4 million sperm last night. I didn't get all worked up about it. No one charged me for genocide

    Corinthian,do you mind clarifying this logic,if that is what you want to call it?


  • #520
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    RepublicanEagle wrote: »
    Since you support the fact that masturbation can be compared to taking a person's life.You should be explaining that to me.I await your reply with bated breath.

    A human sperm is human. A human zygote is human. A human foetus is human. A full grown human adult is human. Etc etc

    Do you disagree?


  • #521
    RepublicanEagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭RepublicanEagle


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    a human corpse (as I asked you earlier - without response)

    A human corpse was a living human being,just like an aborted baby.


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  • #522
    RepublicanEagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭RepublicanEagle


    Wicknight wrote: »
    A human sperm is human. A human zygote is human. A human foetus is human. A full grown human adult is human. Etc etc

    Do you disagree?

    All except for the sperm and zygote,individually they do not form a human being,together they do.


  • #523
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    It has nothing to do with environment. Dont you guys learn, kingdom, phylum, class, genus, species, in school?

    Asking what species a sperm is is the wrong question. A human sperm is a human sperm, not a human being.


  • #524
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I think the principle difference between an egg, sperm or an elbow and a fertilized egg or zygote is that the latter will under normal circumstances and in the right environments develop to become a functional and distinct Homo Sapien.

    On their own, an egg or sperm will never do that. Neither will an elbow.

    To me that argument falls down because "on its own" either will a human zygote.

    People seem to forget this, they think once conception has occurred they have some how created something that will grown on it's own. It won't. It will die within a few hours without the vast machinary nature has put in place to ensure it won't.

    A human sperm will not do anything on it's own but then nature never intended it to be on it's own. It also has a vast machinary to get it to the egg.

    From nature's point of view there is no difference from a man sticking his penis into a woman's vagina (only if they really love each other children) and a embryo implanting on the walk of the womb.

    Sex is how nature gets the sperm and egg together, in the same way that all the process of the zygote moving into the womb is how nature gets the embryo to implant.

    I think we tend to view these two things different because we think we control the sex bit, or because we like to view things as distinct objects. The sperm and egg can't be a "human" because they are not joined together. Which is a bit like saying "my" finger stops being my finger when I cop it off and only becomes my finger again when it is joined back together.

    These concepts seem to be purely to ease human comprehension.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    If you can't say what you mean, how can you mean what you say?

    I'm glad someone is following :pac:


  • #525
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with environment. Dont you guys learn, kingdom, phylum, class, genus, species, in school?

    Asking what species a sperm is is the wrong question. A human sperm is a human sperm, not a human being.

    Great we are getting some where.

    Define "human being"


  • #526
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    RepublicanEagle wrote: »
    Corinthian,do you mind clarifying this logic,if that is what you want to call it?
    I thought I already had. Simply calling something 'human' is irrelevant, you need to define it as a 'human person'.
    RepublicanEagle wrote: »
    A human corpse was a living human being,just like an aborted baby.
    What's the difference between them? Unless you are able to define what is a human being against some random human genetic material, then your arguments will be taken apart in any logical discourse.

    If it cheers you up, I gave a definition a few posts back.
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Dont you guys learn, kingdom, phylum, class, genus, species, in school?
    Nope, did physics and chemistry for the LC.


  • #527
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    RepublicanEagle wrote: »
    All except for the sperm and zygote,individually they do not form a human being,together they do.

    Do they need to be physically joined? If so, why?


  • #528
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Wicknight wrote: »
    A human sperm is human. A human zygote is human. A human foetus is human. A full grown human adult is human. Etc etc

    Do you disagree?
    A human eyelash is human but it is not a human being.


  • #529
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I thought I already had. Simply calling something 'human' is irrelevant, you need to define it as a 'human person'.

    What's the difference between them? Unless you are able to define what is a human being against some random human genetic material, then your arguments will be taken apart in any logical discourse.

    If it cheers you up, I gave a definition a few posts back.

    Nope, did physics and chemistry for the LC.
    Thats weird. We learn that in eighth grade (irish first year).


  • #530
    RepublicanEagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭RepublicanEagle


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Great we are getting some where.

    Define "human being"

    It has been suitably defined in an earlier post.


  • #531
    RepublicanEagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭RepublicanEagle


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Do they need to be physically joined? If so, why?

    Yes,because only when they are physically fused together do you have the human being.Did you not learn sexual reproduction in secondary school?:rolleyes:


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  • #532
    RepublicanEagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭RepublicanEagle


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    What's the difference between them?

    There is no difference.


  • #533
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    RepublicanEagle wrote: »
    Yes,because only when they are physically fused together do you have the human being.Did you not learn sexual reproduction in secondary school?:rolleyes:
    Evidentally biology isnt part of the curriculum.


  • #534
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Wicknight wrote: »
    People seem to forget this, they think once conception has occurred they have some how created something that will grown on it's own. It won't. It will die within a few hours without the vast machinary nature has put in place to ensure it won't.
    That is why I said "the right environments". Humans need the right environment to survive - we get hardier as we grow older, but ultimately without oxygen, water and food, you'll find that we don't survive very long even as adults.

    This is also the case with a foetus; all it needs is the environment. It's not even dependant on the mother if another environment can be found (e.g. a surrogate), and genetically it is independent, as is it's development.
    A human sperm will not do anything on it's own but then nature never intended it to be on it's own. It also has a vast machinary to get it to the egg.
    Perhaps, but as you have accepted it will not do anything on it's own, and that was my point.
    The sperm and egg can't be a "human" because they are not joined together.
    Actually they are not human because they do not contain the distinct code of a human individual - only half each - and because on their own they will never develop, regardless of the environment. I already said this and made no point as to their being joined or not.


  • #535
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    RepublicanEagle wrote: »
    There is no difference.
    No I meant what is the difference between a person and a corpse or some random human meat? Unless you can do that, then all you are proffering is a fuzzy definition of a 'person' and asking people to take your word on it.
    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Thats weird. We learn that in eighth grade (irish first year).
    Buggered if I can remember that far back.


  • #536
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Wicknight wrote: »
    To me that argument falls down because "on its own" either will a human zygote.

    People seem to forget this, they think once conception has occurred they have some how created something that will grown on it's own. It won't. It will die within a few hours without the vast machinary nature has put in place to ensure it won't.

    The very same can be said of a child or for that matter a fully grown* adult.

    *survival part, not the growing part evidently.


  • #537
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    A human eyelash is human but it is not a human being.

    Brilliant, what is a human being


  • #538
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Evidentally biology isnt part of the curriculum.

    Nor what circular logic is :rolleyes:


  • #539
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Zulu wrote: »
    The very same can be said of a child or for that matter a fully grown* adult.

    *survival part, not the growing part evidently.

    Yes it can, which is why it is a pretty poor argument for defining what a human being is (being able to survive and grow "on it's own")


  • #540
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Im missing the point on the environment and dependency for survival. How is that relevant?


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  • #541
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Nor what circular logic is :rolleyes:

    No,evidently not.


This discussion has been closed.
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