Fine Gael gangs up on George Lee, Irishman.

Dionysus · 10-02-2010 09:12PM #1

Was anybody else listening to RTÉ 1, Newstalk and Today FM throughout today?

I haven't seen so much political thuggery from a political party since the days when Haughey and his henchmen tried (successfully) to undermine decent and honourable men within Fianna Fáil (I don't care what anybody says; such men, men like George Colley, existed).

The attempts today by numerous Fine Gael politicians to tarnish George Lee's reputation defy belief. It is so abjectly lacking in intelligence that they must have been working for George Lee. How Fine Gael sat around a table and decided to go on the attack against one man, a single man, and came up with the conclusion that this was an intelligent, politically astute decision beats the band. This is Ireland: there is nothing the average Irish person loves more than a David against a Goliath battle. This is Irish history, and Irish political culture, 101. Duh.

And this sort of dim, ill-thought-out bully-boy thinking is dominating Fine Gael, a party which claims it is ready to lead this state? No way, José! Keep your Blueshirt neo-fascism to yourselves, please.

So far today Leo Varadkar, Brian Hayes, Simon Coveney and Richard Bruton have got the boot in and accused George Lee of leaving politics for things as diverse as politics not paying enough (mar dheá!) - i.e. Lee was too greedy - and that Lee had too big an ego for Fine Gael.

How brave of Fine Gael to gang up on a single man like this. Thugs; nothing more than thugs.

Can anybody defend these tactics against one man? I, for one, have never been as supportive of somebody in Irish political life as I am for George Lee now.

PirateShampoo · 10-02-2010 09:14PM

Hahahahaha, its people like you who will vote in that Fat Corrupt Prat Bertie as the next Mayor.

Side note, arnt they all Irish men?

connundrum · 10-02-2010 09:15PM

Are they all wrong? All of them?

Dionysus · 10-02-2010 09:18PM

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Hahahahaha, its people like you who will vote in that Fat Corrupt Prat Bertie as the next Mayor.

Side note, arnt they all Irish men?

That was intelligent. So how, tell us, is George Lee comparable with Bertie Ahern. Give this your best shot.

PirateShampoo · 10-02-2010 09:22PM

Dionysus wrote: »

That was intelligent. So how, tell us, is George Lee comparable with Bertie Ahern. Give this your best shot.

They both are only intrested in the €

They both have massive ego's.

They both done a runner when they couldnt handle it.

They both let the people who voted them in to office down.

Shall i go on?

Dionysus · 10-02-2010 09:23PM

connundrum wrote: »

Are they all wrong? All of them?

Ethically and tactically, yes of course they are wrong. To be truly wrong would necessitate a genuine belief. There is no way that these people, greased as they are by the wheel of political corruption and back stabbing, believe that George Lee (or any other law-abiding citizen) is beneath them.

Lee just refused to accept the look-after-the-boys system which they maintain.

Cerocco · 10-02-2010 09:23PM

Its the people who voted for him who must feel really P***ed off. I think Lee is big enough and bold enough to defend himself. After all he was on nearly every radio show and TV news broadcast monday getting his point across, why can't the party he left do the same. I think a case of throwing the toys out of the cot for Lee. I wait with bated breath to see how he will arise like a phoenix from the ashes, NOT!!!!!!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight · 10-02-2010 09:24PM

George Lee's ideas should have been adopted by the party.

If only Fine Gael been telepathic or George had told them, and then there is the little matter of the historical vested interests that have to be accommodated.

Is it still true that 40% of FF backbenchers are publicans ?

Dionysus · 10-02-2010 09:25PM

PirateShampoo wrote: »

They both are only intrested in the €

Prove it regarding Lee, a person who gave up a very secure job in RTÉ, resigned from Dáil Éireann 9 months later and is now, arguably, in a worse financial system than before as it will be hard for him to return to his old post. He could have just sat in the Dáil, kept his head down and taken the money. Why didn't he?

After that, where is your evidence of any corruption on the part of George Lee?

The_Kew_Tour · 10-02-2010 09:26PM

It says an awful lot about Fine Gael that they cant even have the backing of the people to run this country even though the current Government have put this country into a reccession.

Enda Kenny is a tool, brainless idiot

PirateShampoo · 10-02-2010 09:28PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Prove it regarding Lee, a person who gave up a very secure job in RTÉ, resigned from Dáil Éireann 9 months later and is now, arguably, in a worse financial system than before as it will be hard for him to return to his old post. He could have just sat in the Dáil, kept his head down and taken the money. Why didn't he?

After that, where is your evidence of any corruption on the part of George Lee?

Can you quote the part of my post where i said he was corrupt.

Dionysus · 10-02-2010 09:32PM

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Can you quote the part of my post where i said he was corrupt.

After I posted in defence of Lee, your response was:

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Hahahahaha, its people like you who will vote in that Fat Corrupt Prat Bertie as the next Mayor.

In other words, a defence of George Lee was equivalent to a defence of Bertie Ahern, in your world view. An equation which you are now evidently having difficulty defending.

PirateShampoo · 10-02-2010 09:36PM

Dionysus wrote: »

After I posted in defence of Lee, your response was:

In other words, a defence of George Lee was equivalent to a defence of Bertie Ahern, in your world view. An equation which you are now evidently having difficulty defending.

Still cant see where i said Lee was corrupt. Your just making assumptions.

LionelNashe · 10-02-2010 09:37PM

Dionysus wrote: »

.......to go on the attack against one man, a single man...........

...How brave of Fine Gael to gang up on a single man like this. Thugs; nothing more than thugs....

.....Can anybody defend these tactics against one man?

You're not suggesting that they should have nominated a single spokesman to handle all the media contact, and the rest should have said "no comment"? Or maybe you are?

I don't see why they should hold back from defending themselves from the damage that Lee has done to them by jumping ship.

If they are saying things that aren't true, then they shouldn't be, but criticising them because they have got several spokespeople is an emotive argument that makes no sense.

Dionysus · 10-02-2010 09:38PM

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Still cant see where i said Lee was corrupt. Your just making assumptions.

Em, it's not as if you were saying that somebody voting for Bertie Ahern was supporting an honourable man. Or were you?

dixiefly · 10-02-2010 09:39PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Was anybody else listening to RTÉ 1, Newstalk and Today FM throughout today?

I haven't seen so much political thuggery from a political party since the days when Haughey and his henchmen tried (successfully) to undermine decent and honourable men within Fianna Fáil (I don't care what anybody says; such men, men like George Colley, existed).

The attempts today by numerous Fine Gael politicians to tarnish George Lee's reputation defy belief. It is so abjectly lacking in intelligence that they must have been working for George Lee. How Fine Gael sat around a table and decided to go on the attack against one man, a single man, and came up with the conclusion that this was an intelligent, politically astute decision beats the band. This is Ireland: there is nothing the average Irish person loves more than a David against a Goliath battle. This is Irish history, and Irish political culture, 101. Duh.

And this sort of dim, ill-thought-out bully-boy thinking is dominating Fine Gael, a party which claims it is ready to lead this state? No way, José! Keep your Blueshirt neo-fascism to yourselves, please.

So far today Leo Varadkar, Brian Hayes, Simon Coveney and Richard Bruton have got the boot in and accused George Lee of leaving politics for things as diverse as politics not paying enough (mar dheá!) - i.e. Lee was too greedy - and that Lee had too big an ego for Fine Gael.

How brave of Fine Gael to gang up on a single man like this. Thugs; nothing more than thugs.

Can anybody defend these tactics against one man? I, for one, have never been as supportive of somebody in Irish political life as I am for George Lee now.

Come on now man, Geore Lee was horrendously naive in how he handled the announcement of his departure and the non stop wave of interviews on Tuesday.
Quite a few people I know were of the opinion yesterday that George did himself or FG no favours with the way he criticised the party and spoke about "murmurings" regarding Enda Kenny. He was told those things in confidence and, if he wasnt going to divulge them as part of the party, he shouldnt have spoke about them when he left.

People around the country would have had much more respect for him if he had just said that things hadnt worked out and left it at that.

Both sides have shown very poor judgement from the original arrangement through to this debacle. I am what you would call a floating voter having voted FF last time out (which I havent yet forgiven myself for). At the moment I still intend votin FG next time out but this episode has damaged my confidence. However I am more annoyed with George Lee than FG - he should have at least stayed till the next election.

And btw, George Lee is no longer in Irish Political life.

Dionysus · 10-02-2010 09:43PM

LionelNashe wrote: »

You're not suggesting that they should have nominated a single spokesman to handle all the media contact, and the rest should have said "no comment"? Or maybe you are?

I don't see why they should hold back from defending themselves from the damage that Lee has done to them by jumping ship.

If they are saying things that aren't true, then they shouldn't be, but criticising them because they have got several spokespeople is an emotive argument that makes no sense.

Lee didn't actually make personal attacks against any member of Fine Gael, unless I have missed something. He focused on how he was not given enough say in policy, which is legitimate, without naming names. These Fine Gael guys, in sharp contrast, all made ad hominem attacks on George Lee. There were smarter ways to deal with it; much smarter. They were just steaming up with revenge at the rejection of their party, and responded by trying to tarnish his name and character. There is a world of difference in these tactics.

Biggins · 10-02-2010 09:43PM

FG are doing three things currently in my opinion.

1. Trying to regain PG for what the damage for what Lee has brought on them
2. Clearly regrouping and attacking Lee and his name (Funny that, when they wanted to use it, it was fine!)
3. Putting out a clever warning to any others that might be thinking of jumping ship or speaking out - "Beware of the of consequences of doing similar, we will lash back at you too!"

Fianna Fail - Fine Gael: whats the ruddy difference!
Both are useless - and stab you in the back when your of no use to them and you speak out and/or make any kind of stand!

Agricola · 10-02-2010 09:45PM

I feel so sorry for George lee. Poor aul divil. What has he goin for him now, only his 150k job in RTE!

He thought he was thick necked enough to live with the people who have the thickest necks in the country and he was wrong. He made em look bad, their tryin to save face and he goes back to his cushy life.

No one died.

Dionysus · 10-02-2010 09:51PM

dixiefly wrote: »

However I am more annoyed with George Lee than FG - he should have at least stayed till the next election.

Some good points, and I tend to agree that Lee should have stayed.

However, upon further reflection, things must have been really, really, really bad for the guy if he not only resigned from Fine Gael but, much more importantly, gave up his Dáil seat. The latter part is easily the most difficult for me to understand. He could have resigned from Fine Gael but continued as an independent voice or even joined Labour or something down the line. Resigning the Dáil seat, to my mind, speaks of a guy who was sickened by the system itself. I could be wrong on that. But what other explanation is there (especially when he is career-wise, at the time of writing, worse off from resigning)

AckwelFoley · 10-02-2010 09:51PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

George Lee's ideas should have been adopted by the party.

LOL

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Is it still true that 40% of FF backbenchers are publicans ?

Where on gods green earth did you pull a statistic like that?

epgc3fyqirnbsx · 10-02-2010 09:52PM

He was voted as a TD.
AS such he had a duty to his constituents which he reneged on after only 9 months.

And I don't get why he was supposed to be seen as some saviour, he was an economics journalist with limited experience. Bruton is better educated and has bucket loads experience.
Lee was given an economic think tank type committee by FG which he didn't make one submission on.
He had no interest representing his constituency.

As has been said on this thread he was incredibally naive, god knows what he expected from this job.
And then as soon as he leaves he begins the bad-mouthing rather than just leaving honourably and saying that it wasn't for him

So of course he's going to be discredited by the party.

I have no sympathy for him, one less dreamer with a messiah complex to worry about

I just wanna see some realists up there, whether they are ugly or unglamourous, someone who can do a good bloody job without running home or deflecting blame

bonerm · 10-02-2010 09:56PM

Frankly, Fianna Gael are the most effective tool Fianna Fail have ever had in order to get re-elected again and again. I've never voted FF in my life (and I prob never will) but I can see how they get over the line time and again when their main rivals are this shower of scumbags.

I look at lapdogs like Leo Vardaker and I want to be physically sick as I witness a new generation (my generation) towing out the partyline like it was Gospel. Nothing will ever change.

Both parties are nothing but two groups of fat grubby little men fighting over a greasy spoon. Neither of them deserve their position in Irish society.

LionelNashe · 10-02-2010 09:58PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Lee didn't actually make personal attacks against any member of Fine Gael, unless I have missed something. He focused on how he was not given enough say in policy, which is legitimate, without naming names. These Fine Gael guys, in sharp contrast, all made ad hominem attacks on George Lee. There were smarter ways to deal with it; much smarter. They were just steaming up with revenge at the rejection of their party, and responded by trying to tarnish his name and character. There is a world of difference in these tactics.

I didn't mention Lee's comments. The only person so far who has criticised what Lee said is Dixiefly, to whom you replied "Some good points"

If its the content of the FG criticisms that you object to, i.e. "the tarnishings of his name and character", then you distracted from this with the whole heart-rending "David and Goliath" angle in your original post. So what if they are many and he is one. He is by himself because he chose to be by himself.

Kristopherus · 10-02-2010 10:00PM

I have no sympathy for him, one less dreamer with a messiah complex to worry about

Well IMO he stood out like a beacon among that shower of muppets.

Dionysus · 10-02-2010 10:05PM

Eddie Teeny Tick wrote: »

He was voted as a TD.
AS such he had a duty to his constituents which he reneged on after only 9 months.

Fair enough. No problem there.

Eddie Teeny Tick wrote: »

And I don't get why he was supposed to be seen as some saviour

George Lee was courted by Fine Gael who clearly viewed him as a "saviour". Given the respect with which Lee was, and is, held by many people simply for his caustic criticisms during the supposedly economically successful period, this is understandable.

Eddie Teeny Tick wrote: »

he was an economics journalist with limited experience. Bruton is better educated and has bucket loads experience.

You have got to be joking. When Richard Bruton and Fine Gael, Labour and most of the rest of the Opposition (Joe Higgins being the noble exception) were all riding the Celtic Tiger (even in 2007!) - and getting their collective arses smacked by the electorate in 2007 when questioning the Ahern myth - it was George Lee who was being criticised for being "pessimistic" about the economic outlook. It was Lee who had the courage to call things as he saw them. It was not Bruton, who as a matter of fact is by no means more educated than George Lee, as you claim. This honesty is why Lee was/is widely respected and received 27,768 first preference votes.

Biggins · 10-02-2010 10:08PM

Lets summerise some following stuff:

* He walked out because according to him, he was used (for his name and PR) and abused. Then ignored.
* He could have stayed on for supposed "advantages" that amazingly were announced AFTER he left (A face saving attempt by FG???)
* Lee SHOULD have known in all honesty what he was getting into!
* FG CLEARLY did not do their homework before integrating him into FG - a major fcuk-up by them, as if they say NOW(!) he is THAT BAD!!! But NO - he was a great guy when it was convenient to them! Amazing isn't it!
* If he hung on, he would have clearly cost the state (thats you and I in tax) more money with state TD pensions, benefits and perks, allowances, etc...
Thus the price of him going at €15,000 approx might be considered the cheaper route for he (and us!) to take.
* If he was not being listened to or his input was falling on deaf ears, on those that were side-lining him - NO MATTER HOW LONG HE WAS THERE - there is no point him being there wasting his time - and our money!
* FF probably want the poodle like Enda (bite-less and meek) to keep running FG. It clearly gives them a better chance of re-election!
* FF/FG/the rest are clearly sending out a unofficial joined message and that is: if others might be thinking of jumping ship or speaking out - "Beware of the of consequences of doing similar, we will lash back at you too!"

Paparazzo · 10-02-2010 10:11PM

PirateShampoo wrote: »

They both are only intrested in the €

They both have massive ego's.

They both done a runner when they couldnt handle it.

They both let the people who voted them in to office down.

Shall i go on?

Yes, keep going on. Eventually you'll get one that's actually true

Squiggle · 10-02-2010 10:16PM

Dionysus wrote: »

Prove it regarding Lee, a person who gave up a very secure job in RTÉ, resigned from Dáil Éireann 9 months later and is now, arguably, in a worse financial system than before as it will be hard for him to return to his old post.

He can return to RTE as a tea boy and get the same salary that he was previously on - that's the joke !.

He could have just sat in the Dáil, kept his head down and taken the money. Why didn't he?

He couldn't hack constituency work and he could return to RTE on the same salary as when he left. If he was a man of conviction he would have stayed on as an independent so that in the future, like previous independents, he could have played a pivotal role in future governments with his " gigantic economic intellect ". BTW Can you direct me to his economic publications that indicate his innovative thinking ?

AckwelFoley · 10-02-2010 10:21PM

My biggest problem with georges theory of blame against FG is this..

If FG didnt want to listen to him.. (which i wouldnt blame them, i stopped listening to him 15 years ago) he then leaves the party, BUT why didnt he stay on as a TD to be a public representative like he was voted to be, he still has a voice and a vote in the dail..

His problem is he has too big of an opinion of himself.

Biggins · 10-02-2010 10:25PM

snyper wrote: »

My biggest problem with georges theory of blame against FG is this..

If FG didnt want to listen to him.. (which i wouldnt blame them, i stopped listening to him 15 years ago) he then leaves the party, BUT why didnt he stay on as a TD to be a public representative like he was voted to be, he still has a voice and a vote in the dail..

His problem is he has too big of an opinion of himself.

You could have a point. I suspect that he had an over inflated value of himself - then again the ego boosting charade that FG put on in the time of his joining probably didn't help in that respect too!
A poisoned chalice of their own partial making that backfired on FG?

Fine Gael gangs up on George Lee, Irishman.

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