Bill Gates: White kids not eligible for my scholarships

pablomakaveli · 02-02-2010 11:14AM

pow wow wrote: »

A good point. However, you're making this a black/white issue when it isn't. The scholarships are available to disadvantaged ethnic minorities, and black people.

In answer your question, no I wouldn't, and here is why - I don't see these scholarships as being unfair towards disadvantaged/poor white kids, but rather as an effort to level the playing field to an extent. There's poverty on all sides, beyond that the dynamics are different. America isn't the land where you can be anything and do anything regardless of ethnicity (despite what they tell you), and it's not half as equal as it's purported to be either. These scholarships correct the balance a little. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

I was'nt trying make this a black and white issue just using it as an example.

Would you not agree that instead of listing certain ethnicities as a condition it would be better and fairer to list a family income threshold instead?

For example kids coming from a family with an annual income of less than $20,000 for example. That way the children who are poor and thus need the scholarship can still get it without discriminating against certain people because of their ethnicity.

PeakOutput · 02-02-2010 11:17AM

enda1 wrote: »

If you believe there is more difference between the two people than that which I described, you my friend are the one with a problem.

as muxh as i hate to defend pow wow

can you imagine any real world scenario were a woman has a kid with a black man and one with a white man and both kids are raised exactly the same emotionally physicallly and education wise?

cause i cant unless they live in utah and she is married to both.

how about this for a scenario. my aunty gives birth in america and therefore the child is an american citizen my mother gives birth in ireland but we move to america straight away but im not a citizen. me and my cousin go to the exact same schools and get the exact same results and accepted to the exact same college, we are both black but i dont have access to this scholarship because im not american is that wrong?

or is it wrong that he dosnt have access to the scholarships that i do for being irish?(fullbright for example)

or is that just tough?

i think its just tough there has to rules somewhere. if you accept the argument that this is discriminating against white people than you might as well make the point that it is also discriminating against people who dont want to go to college or arent smart enough. in fact to be sure he is including everybody and no1 has a cause for complaint maybe he should just send 10dollars to every college age, oh no wait, everyone in america(what would that be around 5billion?) sure then everyone is equal

PeakOutput · 02-02-2010 11:22AM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

That way the children who are poor and thus need the scholarship can still get it without discriminating against certain people because of their ethnicity.

sure why not make it available to any poor people who get any sort of high school scores you cant be discriminating against stupid people either thats not their fault after all.......were does it end? because the money will certainly end

but luckily there is no need for that because there are scholarships for the people your saying are excluded aswell, he has just chosen to be a patron for others

pow wow · 02-02-2010 11:31AM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Would you not agree that instead of listing certain ethnicities as a condition it would be better and fairer to list a family income threshold instead?

For example kids coming from a family with an annual income of less than $20,000 for example. That way the children who are poor and thus need the scholarship can still get it without discriminating against certain people because of their ethnicity.

Fairer if you're trying to increase everyones' access to higher education yes. But that's not what he is trying to do. He wants to increase the opportunities for certain segments of the population and his criteria were devised accordingly. As it's his money he can call those shots.

Sharpshooter · 02-02-2010 11:32AM

enda1 wrote: »

You didn't make a point. And unless you're going to make one, piss off.

Please lose the attitude, or do not post in this thread again.

pablomakaveli · 02-02-2010 11:35AM

PeakOutput wrote: »

sure why not make it available to any poor people who get any sort of high school scores you cant be discriminating against stupid people either thats not their fault after all.......were does it end? because the money will certainly end

but luckily there is no need for that because there are scholarships for the people your saying are excluded aswell, he has just chosen to be a patron for others

Tbh i dont think any scholarship should count ethnicity as a condition.

And scholarships are usually given to kids who do very well and work hard in school but becuase they mightnt be able to afford college the scholarship can give them the oppurtunity to go.

pablomakaveli · 02-02-2010 11:40AM

pow wow wrote: »

Fairer if you're trying to increase everyones' access to higher education yes. But that's not what he is trying to do. He wants to increase the opportunities for certain segments of the population and his criteria were devised accordingly. As it's his money he can call those shots.

Ok. Fair enough but just because its him spending his money does'nt make it necessarily right. For example if i was rich and began a scholarship program which was only available to males, would that be considered ok?

pow wow · 02-02-2010 11:46AM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Ok. Fair enough but just because its him spending his money does'nt make it necessarily right. For example if i was rich and began a scholarship program which was only available to males, would that be considered ok?

There are plenty of college funding options that have criteria such as that. At all the universities I've studied at (3) there have been funds to help women, people born in a certain country (as opposed to the usual EU v Non-EU funds most have) etc., and not always groups you might think of as having some disadvantage.

Bill's reasons for choosing the ethnic groups he has are possibly more charitable than your reasons for picking men though

pablomakaveli · 02-02-2010 12:03PM

pow wow wrote: »

There are plenty of college funding options that have criteria such as that. At all the universities I've studied at (3) there have been funds to help women, people born in a certain country (as opposed to the usual EU v Non-EU funds most have) etc., and not always groups you might think of as having some disadvantage.

I don't necessarily agree with basing funding conditions on gender or nationality either. These factors don't greatly influence a persons ability to succeed or fail in college just like ethnicity does'nt.

I suppose at the end of the day if they help some people still go to college just like Bill Gates scholarship does, they or obviously a good thing but it would be nicer to see them more open to people in general rather than focusing on certain groups purely based on unimportant factors like gender,ethnicity etc.

Mike 1972 · 02-02-2010 12:25PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

it would be better and fairer to list a family income threshold instead? For example kids coming from a family with an annual income of less than $20,000 for example. That way the children who are poor and thus need the scholarship can still get it .

Trouble with that is families with an annual income of $20,001 (and no scope for adjustment like a farmer or business person would have) loose out.

Still its better than discrimination (however well intened) on the basis or (sometimes arbitrary) concepts like ethnicity

Mal-Adjusted · 02-02-2010 12:25PM

you can sugarcoat it all you like, he's excluding people based on ethnicity, and that's all it comes down to.

hooradiation · 02-02-2010 12:31PM

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

you can sugarcoat it all you like, he's excluding people based on ethnicity, and that's all it comes down to.

As much as i wish it were just income based, he's a private citizen and therefore under no obligation to include or exclude anyone.

I mean he could just have a scholarship just for Black lesbian Jew pre-op transsexuals named Mohammed Wong if he wanted.

02-02-2010 12:37PM

SubrbanOblivion wrote: »

Know an instant cure for poverty? I'm sure many would love to hear it...

Money :pac:

aDeener wrote: »

And so you have every right to be, i'd be proud too if i had a 10" destroyer :pac:

Battleships?

pow wow wrote: »

Fairer if you're trying to increase everyones' access to higher education yes. But that's not what he is trying to do. He wants to increase the opportunities for certain segments of the population and his criteria were devised accordingly. As it's his money he can call those shots.

He can call those shots alright. Doesn't make it any less discriminatory. Its already been touched on here but if he was giving scholarships to people but excluded, lets say Jews, Women or Disabled people there'd be fcukin' uproar. And rightly so.

His intentions are good, but he fcuked up on his criteria for eligibility. As magma said earlier, it should be based on circumstances rather than ethnicity.

ORLY? · 02-02-2010 12:56PM

therewillbe wrote: »

It dont matter where your from in the world, If you dont want whats there ,Well so be it.

Want? Are you serious? There are places, even in this country, where the residents can't even begin to believe that it would ever be possible for them to go to college. It's seen as something that's simply not ever going to be an option for them. There are serious socio-economic reasons for it and it isn't at all a case of people not wanting to get on in life.

WindSock · 02-02-2010 12:57PM

Deleted User wrote: »

He can call those shots alright. Doesn't make it any less discriminatory. Its already been touched on here but if he was giving scholarships to people but excluded, lets say Jews, Women or Disabled people there'd be fcukin' uproar. And rightly so.

He is exluding those groups. White Jews, White Gays, White Women & White Disabled people.

Is there an uproar from any of these groups?

His intentions are good, but he fcuked up on his criteria for eligibility. As magma said earlier, it should be based on circumstances rather than ethnicity.

Often a persons circumstances are down to their ethnicity. Do you think people don't discriminate on how a person looks or where they are from?

As said before, it is a charity. Whom a person decides to fund is their business. I give to homeless agencies but I don't give to Barnardos. Am I ageist?

Mal-Adjusted · 02-02-2010 01:43PM

hooradiation wrote: »

As much as i wish it were just income based, he's a private citizen and therefore under no obligation to include or exclude anyone.

I mean he could just have a scholarship just for Black lesbian Jew pre-op transsexuals named Mohammed Wong if he wanted.

of course he's not. it's his money and he can do what he wants with it. doesn't stop it being discriminatory though

Morlar · 02-02-2010 01:51PM

ORLY? wrote: »

Want? Are you serious? There are places, even in this country, where the residents can't even begin to believe that it would ever be possible for them to go to college. It's seen as something that's simply not ever going to be an option for them. There are serious socio-economic reasons for it and it isn't at all a case of people not wanting to get on in life.

There are places like that in america too and they are not all black neighbourhoods.

I wonder if all the people saying 'it's his money he can do what he likes with it' would honestly hold the same opinion if that entitlement policy was reversed and became one of 'whites only need apply' ?

There are no excuses for this - it is a racist policy against white people.

It would not have so much affect on the more middle to upper class white people who may not need it but it does discriminate against white people who are from economically deprived backgrounds.

hooradiation · 02-02-2010 02:23PM

Morlar wrote: »

I wonder if all the people saying 'it's his money he can do what he likes with it' would honestly hold the same opinion if that entitlement policy was reversed and became one of 'whites only need apply' ?

Why would it suddenly be different?

It's still his money, he can do what he wants with it. I may not like how he chooses to set these criteria, but the fact remains that he can do as he damn well pleases.

Morlar wrote: »

There are no excuses for this - it is a racist policy against white people.

Yeah, poor old whitey, the man always keepin' him down.

Daroxtar · 02-02-2010 03:28PM

Personally I dont give a fúck what some american does for some other american. It doesnt affect us over here so big fukinn swingin mickey to billy boy and his patronising gesture but i dont give a sh!t.

vicecreamsundae · 02-02-2010 06:27PM

a lot of people in this thread seem to be so blindly unaware of their own privilege if they consider this scholarship "racist". If you did a little research into institutional racism in the US, you would understand the need for scholarships like this. it's not a case of "well everyone has equal rights now, so we don't need incentives like this". equal rights do not mean equal opportunities.

in the USA, the majority of people in positions of power are white.
the amount of african/asian/native american people in positions of power is seriously unrepresentative of the population.
that gaping inequality is not some freak of nature, it doesn't just "happen" to be that way. it's NOT because "white people are just better at their jobs", it is the result of institutional racism -it is because in general, white americans have more privilege and more wealth and more access to better education than other groups.
if you don't accept that then you really don't understand the issue.
and if you do accept it, then you should be able to figure out why scholarships like this ARE neccessary.

and for the record, lots of scholarships discriminate... some go to Irish students only, to European Union citizens, to engineers only, to biologists only. Whoever is funding a scholarship gets to decide who they want to see benefit. Scholarships are like donating to charity, and as one person sort of mentioned already, if I want to donate money to children in Africa rather than children in Russia, that doesn't make me racist. And i wouldnt be donating to African children because of the colour of their skin, it would be because of their disadvantages being greater, in general, than that of Russian children.
This is the thing to keep in mind about these scholarships, they're not about helping people with certain coloured skin, it's about helping people from certain disadvantaged groups.

Sure, you can technically say it discriminates against white people, like i discriminate against Russian kids (?!) but that's a pretty ignorant assessment of what's actually happening here.

Dudess · 02-02-2010 06:30PM

I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact Gates excludes white kids entirely despite the diversity within that racial grouping alone.

Mike 1972 · 02-02-2010 06:34PM

vicecreamsundae wrote: »

it is the result of institutional racism -it is because in general, white americans have more privilege and more wealth and more access to better education than other groups.
if you don't accept that then you really don't understand the issue.

Its not that people here dispute that (well most people anyway). What some people are questioning is whether the most appropriate way of dealing with the effects of institutional racism is -er more institutional racism ?

vicecreamsundae · 02-02-2010 06:46PM

i hear what you are saying, but the issue is that white people hold the majority of positions of power.
Yes, there are individual white people who are poorer than some other racesin the US. And there are individual african americans who are richer and better educated than some white people.
But this isn't about individuals, it's about groups. And as a GROUP, white people have a lot more power, and privilege than african/native americans etc. As a GROUP, african/asian/native/latin americans are greatly underrepresented at the top. That's what these scholarships are about.

i think we need to bear in mind that by Gates offering a scholarship to an african american/native american person, he is not preventing white people going to college.
you know what i mean? Say i have 40K, and i keep it to myself. I am not preventing anyone from going to college. Now say I give it to a native american as a sholarship. I'm still not preventing a white kid from going to college. To say i am is a very skewed way to look at the situation.

I want to move to Canada and work. I have an arts degree. If I was a plumber, or a plasterer, or a physicist, I could go, because they NEED those. What they don't need is another person with an arts degree. Is it discrimination? Technically. Is it wrong and unfair? not really.

vicecreamsundae · 02-02-2010 06:54PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Its not that people here dispute that (well most people anyway). What some people are questioning is whether the most appropriate way of dealing with the effects of institutional racism is -er more institutional racism ?

i understand that too, and ideally, of course it would be great if we didn't need things like affirmative action, and scholarships like this to ensure more equal representation.
But things are not ideal, and in the real world, we do need programs like this to counteract the institutional racism at the moment.

SeanRyan747 · 02-02-2010 10:33PM

the thing with Bill Gates, as with alot of modern day philanthropists, is that they like to put their money into projects with specific goals rather than just throwing it at a huge issue that is too large to deal with in one go. so for example the eradication of a specific disease in a specific country. its a sensible approach. he is a smart guy and I'm sure he has something very specific in mind.

I wish more rich people would give up their wealth and put it into helping to sort out the worlds problems in such a hands on way. chuck feeney did more for ireland than i think we realise. he contributed greatly to many aspects of our society and left to politicians we would still be a second world country. the advantage with a business person in this position is that they can call the shots and take a long term view, unlike politicians who only take a short term approach. there is alot to be said for a benign dictatorship!

why knock bill gates and call him a racist? he is a pragmatist and he gets things done in a very screwed up imperfect world. at least he is making a contribution in some way.

Giselle · 02-02-2010 10:54PM

Awarding a scholarship to a disadvantaged black person from a deprived area isn't just giving that one person a better life; its providing a role model for the whole community when that person suceeds.

White communities are generally more likely to have positive role models because even the most deprived white people have more opportunities.

More bang to the positive discrimmination buck.

me-skywalker · 03-02-2010 12:02AM

PeakOutput wrote: »

bill gates setting up a scholarship has nothing to do with not wanting to help the norm(bear in mind he has donated what? 95% of his wealth to charity)

have you been reading the Imagination Land Times?

WindSock wrote: »

Often a persons circumstances are down to their ethnicity. Do you think people don't discriminate on how a person looks or where they are from?

yes of course but what about the, to coin a phrase, the 'white thrash', 'hicks' - 'trailer park thrash'? Should they be excluded because their not from an ethnic background.

In reality good aul Uncle Sam is the most diverse mongrel race in the world.
Founded by Spanish, British, French Colonialists. African slaves brought over in boat loads. South Americans pushing for work.

Native Americans are the true blood of America.

Mike 1972 · 03-02-2010 12:09AM

me-skywalker wrote: »

'white thrash', 'hicks' - 'trailer park thrash'? Should they be excluded because their not from an ethnic background..

?

PeakOutput · 03-02-2010 12:19AM

me-skywalker wrote: »

have you been reading the Imagination Land Times?

what part do you have a problem with?

me-skywalker · 03-02-2010 12:24AM

me-skywalker wrote: »

PeakOutput wrote: »

bill gates setting up a scholarship has nothing to do with not wanting to help the norm(bear in mind he has donated what? 95% of his wealth to charity)

have you been reading the Imagination Land Times?

PeakOutput wrote: »

what part do you have a problem with?

that part.... he never donated that amount to charity... he has only said that he intends to.....

Bill Gates: White kids not eligible for my scholarships

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