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unions take note of Greece

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  • #2
    Flex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Flex


    Really good post. Also keep in mind that if the ECB increases its minimum credit rating requirement for countries to have to adhere to to be allowed to borrow from them next year, Greece is going to find its situation becoming far far worse as time goes on.

    Seems to reaffirm the fact that the cuts were the correct course of action and the government needs to remain steadfast in the coming future in the face of pressure to do as the PS unions are demanding and send us down the same path we followed in the 1980's.

    And no, unfortunately Id bet anything the unions wont listen. Theyre on a crusade to avoid living in the real world and have decided no amount of common sense or basic maths will stop them.


  • #3
    picpress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48 ✭picpress


    ei.sdraob wrote: »

    do the unions still claim we are on a "wrong track" or "an opportunity was missed"? :rolleyes:


    One post in five and a half hours too bad you did all that research not too many are jumping to your flame bait:D

    Maybe you are actually trying to generate some debate if so I am very very SORRY:rolleyes:


  • #4
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    picpress wrote: »
    One post in five and a half hours too bad you did all that research not too many are jumping to your flame bait:D

    Maybe you are actually trying to generate some debate if so I am very very SORRY:rolleyes:

    burying head in sand not gonna change the facts

    tho then again thats exactly what they trade unions are doing


  • #5
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    LOL do you actually thing that the unions are going to pull their heads out of the sand pit they are buried in to take notice of this.

    The onus is on this government and whatever one replaces it to ensure that services that are vital to the state are protected with a no-strike clause and to diminish the powers of the unions with regard to the public service even if it means a protracted strike to bring things to a head.


  • #6
    Flex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Flex


    picpress wrote: »
    One post in five and a half hours too bad you did all that research not too many are jumping to your flame bait:D

    Maybe you are actually trying to generate some debate if so I am very very SORRY:rolleyes:

    This is the attitude that really gets to me. Its just complete and utter "I dont care what happens in the real world"

    • We need to reduce the cost of labour in the economy as much as we can to attract FDI and MNCs and try to develop export driven economic growth like we had in the early 1990's. Its going to be hard to bring down the cost of labour when the public sector is so highly paid.
    • Reports showed (on average) the public sector was paid 26% more than their private sector counterpart. There was a very good point on the detrimental effect this has on the economy made in another thread; when the PS is so much more attractive as a career path than the private sector in terms of job security, perks and benefits, pensions, lower pressure, easier promotions and higher pay, it will make the best and brightest opt for careers in the public sector, rather than going into the private sector and applying their skills to creating wealth, enterprise, employment, etc. because the risk just isnt worth it.
    • Based on what happened last April, it appears income tax is at the point of diminishing returns and in order to try deal with cross border shopping, VAT needed to be dropped, os the only realistic option was to cut spending.
    • The last time we were in a deep recession/depression we tried to tax and spend our way out which made things worse. Things only started to change when the government began to cut its spending.
    • If you raise taxes then alot of small-medium businesses who are already struggling will have to cut their expenses to further to be able to pay these taxes, and to do so will probably make more of its workers unemployed.
    • Prior to the paycut the PS had the same rate of pay as it had during the Celtic Tiger years.
    • The Irish PS is the highest paid on earth.
    • If you took out a 110% mortgage to buy a house when you were on ~€35k a year and are finding yourself stretched now, its your own fault.
    • This is the same public sector who guaranteed they could take an extra 12 days off and still provide the same level of output and service.
    • The PSs employer is borrowing over €20B a year just to cover its short term expenses.

    Theres never any actual sound argument given out against why the government shouldnt have cut spending. Its usually "Make the banks/fat-cats pay", "Youve been brainwashed by the media", "Dont trust the government", "Whats wrong with continuously borrowing?", "Facts and figures dont mean anything", etc. and threats to obstruct reform (making it sound as if it was just about to start :rolleyes:)

    The post by ei.sdraob points out the other obvious fact that while unions keep going on and on that we are going down the wrong road, the other option they keep saying we have to take was taken by Greece. Which country is in worse shape, economically, at the moment?


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  • #7
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,233 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    I think it is pretty clear that Greece chose the delay action and hope for the best route and it didn't work. Irish Gov have been commended for what they are doing and they should continue to correct their finances while they have the momentum. I truly understand Public Servants anger but I think deep down most of them know it had to be done. If we had carried on as we were those headlines would be Ireland in the not too distant future. The cost of the public service went completely out of control, whose fault this is is another matter, but it had to be brought back in line. We can all say that we didn't cause the crash (except for a few bankers etc) but we all enjoyed the ride while times were good. Wages should never have got to where they were in the first place and it is down to complete incompetence and bad management. I hope we don't forget this when the next election comes around.


  • #8
    hobochris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    Flex wrote: »

    And no, unfortunately Id bet anything the unions wont listen. Theyre on a crusade to avoid living in the real world and have decided no amount of common sense or basic maths will stop them.

    This is why they need to be given an ultimatum, play ball or be dealt with thatcher style.


  • #9
    woodseb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 877 ✭✭✭woodseb


    Flex wrote: »

    [*]The Irish PS is the highest paid on earth.

    they were all excellent points but i fear this comment is going to throw this thread completely off topic


  • #10
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,233 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Flex wrote: »
    • The Irish PS is the highest paid on earth.

    It isn't actually but that is beside the point, it comes down to what we can afford, Ireland made long term plans on the back of fine day tax revenue like VAT and Stamp duty. It was always going to end in tears but it would have taken a brave man to yell stop as we enjoyed one of the highest living standards in the world. That has now changed utterly, we are facing a future of higher taxes and a lower standard of living, private and public sector better get used to it. The unions will do all they can to delay the necessary as they are only interested in their members, that is what their members pay them for, they don't care about the greater good, even though I'm sure they know they would only be delaying the day of reckoning.


  • #11
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Top post. The silence from the other side is deafening.


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  • #12
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Also given the company we keep , (see chart below) if we dont get our act together , wait for labour to start bitching in the Dail using their "cargo cult" understanding of economics as to why interest rates are going up and what is the government going to to about it.



    PIIG spreads are now firmly wider than BRICs

    http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/volcker/PIIGS%201.28.jpg

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #13
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    BRIC = Brazil, Russia, India and China if anyone is unaware of term

    there was an interesting article here few days ago

    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/01/26/134711/an-eye-catching-quote/

    ScreenShot303.jpg


  • #14
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Japan is an interesting case, a couple of % rise in gov. borrowing rates and their budgets are blown out of the water. And guess what their ageing savers have just started to become net sellers of domestic debt.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #15
    The Volt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    Top post. The silence from the other side is deafening.
    They're all out at work.


  • #16
    WalterMitty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭WalterMitty


    PS pay far too high compared to EU averages and in rest europe they also pay much higher taxes so our crowd had massive net income over past decade. Must move public sector pay and pensions to EU average while also moving costs in economy to average Eu levels too. Will be tough but essential for our economic survival. We are'nt a rich country, GNP is collpasing and public and private debt rocketing, we'll be working as a nation just to pay our debts if the books arent balanced soon and taxes cant be rised much more so expenditure must fall.


  • #17
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    well Greece is now getting bailed out by EU

    except in order to receive money they must cut PS wage bill among other things

    unions of Ireland do take note, keep it up and yeer next in line


  • #18
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    more on this story

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-banks-owed-euro6bn-by-shaky-greek-economy-2041519.html
    Irish banks owed €6bn by shaky Greek economy

    A SMALL group of Irish banks may be dangerously exposed to more than €6.1bn in perilous Greek debt, according to a new report.

    Greece is teetering on the edge of a financial abyss, with increasing fears that the country may default on its debt as Greek bond yields soared on uncertainty over the economy.

    This has led to suggestions that Europe was preparing a rescue plan for the stricken Balkan state. The exposure may take the form of sovereign, corporate and bank debt, according to BNP Paribas analyst Olivia Frieser, citing figures from the Bank of International Settlements in a report to clients.

    However hedging could have reduced the overall exposure. “Irish bank exposure would be spread over a few banks only,” according to Ms Frieser. Ireland and the UK account for 23 per cent of outstanding Greek debt, according to figures published in the Financial Times last week.

    “In the unlikely event that Greece lost its access to funding markets, we believe that it would get help from its European partners to avoid a default — precisely because of the potential contagion risk, we think other EU countries would not want to live through what might happen otherwise,”

    Bank of America Merrill Lynch said in a note. However, the European Commission said an EU bailout of Greece was not possible, speaking as the euro meanwhile fell to the lowest level in more than six months against the dollar. Greece is not the only risky economy that Irish banks may be exposed to, according to BNP Paribas.

    Last week’s report suggests that Irish banks may be on the hook for nearly €23bn worth of Spanish debts of various varieties, including sovereign, corporate and bank debts. This may become more of an issue, with “rockstar” economist Nouriel Roubini describing Spain as posing a bigger problem for the EU than Greece.


    why do I get a feeling that if Greece goes down then the taxpayers of this country will be presented with another bank bailout despite any opposition :(


  • #19
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭alex73


    I do often wonder is unios reps passed maths in the leaving cert. But the facts are they are only interested in getting the best deal for their members. As regards to the FF ministers who got use in this mess we are in, It seems their go honores in PR but e's in Maths. At the end of the day they bought the last 2 elections on money from a bubble. 10 years ago the town I live in has 1 hotel, 10 years later it has 6 hotels and all of them with only 20% occupancy and staff on short time. All down to a tax incentive that has left Ireland in ruins.


  • #20
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    alex73 wrote: »
    But the facts are they are only interested in getting the best deal for their members.

    Ha

    q. whats the difference between Unions, FF and other lobby groups/organisations?

    a. they all want to screw the country, the average person on street and the taxpayer for the benefit of their "members"

    :(


  • #21
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Ha

    q. whats the difference between Unions, FF and other lobby groups/organisations?

    a. they all want to screw the country, the average person on street and the taxpayer for the benefit of their "members"

    :(

    Dont you mean 'What do they all have in common?' ;)

    Of course every organization exists for it own benefit (expect charities) despite them saying otherwise. I'm puzzled as to why Unions should be expected to act differently.


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  • #22
    Euro_Kraut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    BRIC = Brazil, Russia, India and China if anyone is unaware of term

    there was an interesting article here few days ago

    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/01/26/134711/an-eye-catching-quote/

    ScreenShot303.jpg

    I like that graph too. We certainly need to get our economy closer to Sweden, Finland, Holland model and further away from the US/UK model.


  • #23
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    primetime had a thing on greece last night

    http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1065741

    skip to 21:40 (the first half was about min wage)


  • #24
    ballinatray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭ballinatray


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    heres a country (run by a very left wing government and strong unions) that decided to continue borrowing and not face up to unions


    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afOQz2Kq9VTc&pos=2





    thats quite a slide from just few days ago > http://www.rte.ie/business/2010/0122/greece.html

    older graphs comparing to Ireland here > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055798021


    notice how things started to diverge with last budget

    do the unions still claim we are on a "wrong track" or "an opportunity was missed"? :rolleyes:


    and will the unions try to steer us into a Greek like oblivion?


    P.S: some interesting stuff here:

    http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:IRL:GRC&tstart=-315619200000&tunit=Y&tlen=48
    http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:IRL:GRC&tstart=-315619200000&tunit=Y&tlen=48
    http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gnp_mktp_pp_cd&idim=country:IRL:GRC&tstart=315532800000&tunit=Y&tlen=28

    Your economic data is impressive, however it only serves to prove in my view, the ultimate responsibility of Government regardless of political systems to manage an economy, independant of the money makers and use wise counsel ( preferably academics ) to regulate an supervise the whole market.....Yes I agree Unions have not yet woken up to the reality of Irelands chaos and are seeking to preserve existing conditions, but that is equally because Government has equally failed to acknowledge that this is economic armageddon here and still look after the pension and salary benefits of a chosen few....THEY SHOULD LEAD FROM THE FRONT...and perhaps a cut of as much as 30% in dail salaries would have been a start to show their genuine intent.....Strange how now the markets are in turmoil, that socialist concepts are used to protect the financial system...


  • #25
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    ballinatray wrote: »
    Your economic data is impressive, however it only serves to prove in my view, the ultimate responsibility of Government regardless of political systems to manage an economy, independant of the money makers and use wise counsel ( preferably academics ) to regulate an supervise the whole market.....Yes I agree Unions have not yet woken up to the reality of Irelands chaos and are seeking to preserve existing conditions, but that is equally because Government has equally failed to acknowledge that this is economic armageddon here and still look after the pension and salary benefits of a chosen few....THEY SHOULD LEAD FROM THE FRONT...and perhaps a cut of as much as 30% in dail salaries would have been a start to show their genuine intent.....Strange how now the markets are in turmoil, that socialist concepts are used to protect the financial system...

    you are right the govt should have acted earlier (they shouldn't have brought us to such a point in first place, but what can you do :( ), it can prove to be a case of too little too late

    now we have a case of another EU country (yes there are some differences between us) who decided to take a path similar to what the unions here proposed (ie borrow more for longer), and it went sour


  • #26
    ballinatray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭ballinatray


    Flex wrote: »
    This is the attitude that really gets to me. Its just complete and utter "I dont care what happens in the real world"

    • We need to reduce the cost of labour in the economy as much as we can to attract FDI and MNCs and try to develop export driven economic growth like we had in the early 1990's. Its going to be hard to bring down the cost of labour when the public sector is so highly paid.
    • Reports showed (on average) the public sector was paid 26% more than their private sector counterpart. There was a very good point on the detrimental effect this has on the economy made in another thread; when the PS is so much more attractive as a career path than the private sector in terms of job security, perks and benefits, pensions, lower pressure, easier promotions and higher pay, it will make the best and brightest opt for careers in the public sector, rather than going into the private sector and applying their skills to creating wealth, enterprise, employment, etc. because the risk just isnt worth it.
    • Based on what happened last April, it appears income tax is at the point of diminishing returns and in order to try deal with cross border shopping, VAT needed to be dropped, os the only realistic option was to cut spending.
    • The last time we were in a deep recession/depression we tried to tax and spend our way out which made things worse. Things only started to change when the government began to cut its spending.
    • If you raise taxes then alot of small-medium businesses who are already struggling will have to cut their expenses to further to be able to pay these taxes, and to do so will probably make more of its workers unemployed.
    • Prior to the paycut the PS had the same rate of pay as it had during the Celtic Tiger years.
    • The Irish PS is the highest paid on earth.
    • If you took out a 110% mortgage to buy a house when you were on ~€35k a year and are finding yourself stretched now, its your own fault.
    • This is the same public sector who guaranteed they could take an extra 12 days off and still provide the same level of output and service.
    • The PSs employer is borrowing over €20B a year just to cover its short term expenses.
    Theres never any actual sound argument given out against why the government shouldnt have cut spending. Its usually "Make the banks/fat-cats pay", "Youve been brainwashed by the media", "Dont trust the government", "Whats wrong with continuously borrowing?", "Facts and figures dont mean anything", etc. and threats to obstruct reform (making it sound as if it was just about to start :rolleyes:)

    The post by ei.sdraob points out the other obvious fact that while unions keep going on and on that we are going down the wrong road, the other option they keep saying we have to take was taken by Greece. Which country is in worse shape, economically, at the moment?


    everything you said here is so obvious, all i need to know why was it not obvious to government for the last 10 years, because it was obvious to me....competitiveness is now this governments catch - cry...10 years too late.. but to maintain its hold on all services it introduced Benchmarking with grandiose expectations of PS reform and it was only window dressing.. Private industry is strangled by maintaining a huge government quango combined with a huge administrative PS, in a dwindling market ... Thanks to Berties please all politics...Keep in mind population of UK 60 million ( approx ) 600 mp's....per head of population by comparison, it means that we in ireland should have perhaps 40 /45 mp's / td's....Just imagine the size of our PS to service that...14 times as many as britain...and every entrepreneur in the country swetting to maintain that collosus of waste and privilage....


  • #27
    ballinatray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭ballinatray


    Flex wrote: »
    This is the attitude that really gets to me. Its just complete and utter "I dont care what happens in the real world"

    • We need to reduce the cost of labour in the economy as much as we can to attract FDI and MNCs and try to develop export driven economic growth like we had in the early 1990's. Its going to be hard to bring down the cost of labour when the public sector is so highly paid.
    • Reports showed (on average) the public sector was paid 26% more than their private sector counterpart. There was a very good point on the detrimental effect this has on the economy made in another thread; when the PS is so much more attractive as a career path than the private sector in terms of job security, perks and benefits, pensions, lower pressure, easier promotions and higher pay, it will make the best and brightest opt for careers in the public sector, rather than going into the private sector and applying their skills to creating wealth, enterprise, employment, etc. because the risk just isnt worth it.
    • Based on what happened last April, it appears income tax is at the point of diminishing returns and in order to try deal with cross border shopping, VAT needed to be dropped, os the only realistic option was to cut spending.
    • The last time we were in a deep recession/depression we tried to tax and spend our way out which made things worse. Things only started to change when the government began to cut its spending.
    • If you raise taxes then alot of small-medium businesses who are already struggling will have to cut their expenses to further to be able to pay these taxes, and to do so will probably make more of its workers unemployed.
    • Prior to the paycut the PS had the same rate of pay as it had during the Celtic Tiger years.
    • The Irish PS is the highest paid on earth.
    • If you took out a 110% mortgage to buy a house when you were on ~€35k a year and are finding yourself stretched now, its your own fault.
    • This is the same public sector who guaranteed they could take an extra 12 days off and still provide the same level of output and service.
    • The PSs employer is borrowing over €20B a year just to cover its short term expenses.
    Theres never any actual sound argument given out against why the government shouldnt have cut spending. Its usually "Make the banks/fat-cats pay", "Youve been brainwashed by the media", "Dont trust the government", "Whats wrong with continuously borrowing?", "Facts and figures dont mean anything", etc. and threats to obstruct reform (making it sound as if it was just about to start :rolleyes:)

    The post by ei.sdraob points out the other obvious fact that while unions keep going on and on that we are going down the wrong road, the other option they keep saying we have to take was taken by Greece. Which country is in worse shape, economically, at the moment?


    everything you said here is so obvious, all i need to know why was it not obvious to government for the last 10 years, because it was obvious to me....competitiveness is now this governments catch - cry...10 years too late.. but to maintain its hold on all services it introduced Benchmarking with grandiose expectations of PS reform and it was only window dressing.. Private industry is strangled by maintaining a huge government quango combined with a huge administrative PS, in a dwindling market ... Thanks to Berties please all politics...Keep in mind population of UK 60 million ( approx ) 600 mp's....per head of population by comparison, it means that we in ireland should have perhaps 40 /45 mp's / td's....Just imagine the size of our PS to service that...14 times as many as britain...and every entrepreneur in the country swetting to maintain that collosus of waste and privilage....


  • #28
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Private industry is strangled by maintaining a huge government quango combined with a huge administrative PS,

    Do you suppose that there are more people in the Irish public sector than in Denmark, in the virtuous circle above? The Danish parliament has 179 seats, so not vastly different from here. Ireland has a public finance problem because much of the private sector was engaged in a giant pyramid scheme, not because of the size of the public service.


  • #29
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Do you suppose that there are more people in the Irish public sector than in Denmark, in the virtuous circle above? The Danish parliament has 179 seats, so not vastly different from here. Ireland has a public finance problem because much of the private sector was engaged in a giant pyramid scheme, not because of the size of the public service.

    didn't the govt "cream off" money from this pyramid scheme, and proceeded to increase expenditure (based mainly on once-of transaction taxes), which as illustrated in a parallel thread grew by leaps and bounds...


  • #30
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,233 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Do you suppose that there are more people in the Irish public sector than in Denmark, in the virtuous circle above? The Danish parliament has 179 seats, so not vastly different from here. Ireland has a public finance problem because much of the private sector was engaged in a giant pyramid scheme, not because of the size of the public service.
    If by pyramid scheme you mean property bubble didn't the publc sector buy houses the same as private, and while private sector banks lent recklessly to developers where were the central bank regulators (public sector), asleep at the wheel thats where. We also had one county council (public) come out recently with the frankly shocking admission that it didn't check if builders were complying with regulations, despite all the development levies they were paying, leaving us with some very substandard dwelling that NAMA now has to deal with. This pyramid scheme paid countless billions in exchequer taxes, if this money had been spent wisely, and even some saved we'd also have less of a public finance problem, we might even have money for some stimulus measures. Public expenditure doubled in the last decade you can hardly blame the private sector for that, in fact the public sectors relentless appetite for wage increases had alot to do with that. There was and is good and bad in both sectors so I really think that statement is not true.


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  • #31
    View
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Ireland has a public finance problem because much of the private sector was engaged in a giant pyramid scheme, not because of the size of the public service.

    Regulation and enforcement of regulation is the exclusive perjogative of the government/public sector, so stop this "It's all the private sectors fault" nonsense.

    We (continue to) have a public finance problem today because - despite Government Revenues starting to drop in Summer 2007 - Government Expenditure has just kept going up.


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