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Is there a difference between the veil & a balaclava

  • 26-01-2010 11:21PM
    #1
    wilson10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭


    It looks like the french may bring in a total ban in public places on the veil worn by some muslim women.

    I've never seen it worn in Ireland but my opinion on the matter would be that no one, while hiding their face, should have the right to pressure someone to interact with them, as in shopping, teaching or even asking directions.

    I don't think a guy would get very far down the street wearing a balaclave without being interviewed by the forces of law & order.

    I'm rarely in Dublin so I just wondered if it's ever seen on the street & how people feel about it.

    I'm not trying to start an anti muslim thread, it's just that I sympathise with the French and the dilemma they find themselves facing and I would have very strong feelings about it if it became commonplace here.


    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100115/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_forbidding_the_veil


«13456

Comments

  • #2
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,816 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    You probably have started another anti Muslim thread, :rolleyes:


  • #3
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    There's been no terrorist attacks in France.
    What's the dilemma?


  • #4
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,651 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Among other things, they are spelt differently.


  • #5
    Hande hoche!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Hande hoche!


    Balacava is far better for cold weather.


  • #6
    Dartz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,458 ✭✭✭Dartz


    Yeah, wear a balaclava in a petrol station and they pay you.


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  • #7
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    There's no real use for a balaclava, unless you're on a snowmobile in Lapland.

    A more relevant question would be whether there's a difference between a hoodie and a veil.


  • #8
    brummytom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭brummytom


    I see veils everyday here. To be completely honest, it's un-nerving. Not being able to see someone's face as you stand in front of them always makes me feel uneasy.

    Also, you never know who's wearing it - like one of those blokes who tried to blow up a tube train the a fortnight after the 7/7/5 attacks, he escaped wearing the full burqa. I'm not really anti-muslim; but it really does, from great experience, create an unneccessary barrier.

    Balaclavas serve the same purpose.. to create a barrier and hide what's underneath. Veils are more of a cultural thing than a religious.


  • #9
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    wilson10 wrote: »
    the veil worn by some muslim women.

    I think you mean the Burqua
    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    There's been no terrorist attacks in France.

    Cough Cough
    wilson10 wrote: »
    one, while hiding their face, should have the right to pressure someone to interact with them, as in shopping, teaching or even asking directions.

    Noone can pressure someone to interact with them veil or no veil
    galwayrush wrote: »
    You probably have started another anti Muslim thread, :rolleyes:

    Actually we had a bun fight thread on this exact subject about a fortnight ago. Standby for all the same well worn arguments, trolling and half-baked drivel all over again............................:rolleyes:


  • #10
    wilson10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭wilson10


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    There's been no terrorist attacks in France.
    What's the dilemma?


    I didn't say anything about terrorism.

    If you're stood in a bank & 2 people walk in totally covered from head to toe, you don't even know what gender they are.

    Would you have cause to feel a bit uneasy.


  • #11
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Cough Cough

    Muslim attacks,then.
    Meaning there's no security reason to ban the veil.
    They're doing it because they don't like it,
    It would be like us banning the Africans from wearing those really bright clothes some of them wear on a Sunday,on some madeup pretext,like they're a traffic hazard or something.


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  • #12
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,651 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    wilson10 wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about terrorism.

    If you're stood in a bank & 2 people walk in totally covered from head to toe, you don't even know what gender they are.

    Would you have cause to feel a bit uneasy.
    Only if you're planning to ride them.


  • #13
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    wilson10 wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about terrorism.

    If you're stood in a bank & 2 people walk in totally covered from head to toe, you don't even know what gender they are.

    Would you have cause to feel a bit uneasy.

    Why?
    No. I wouldn't.


  • #14
    brummytom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭brummytom


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    Muslim attacks,then.
    Meaning there's no security reason to ban the veil.
    They're doing it because they don't like it,
    It would be like us banning the Africans from wearing those really bright clothes some of them wear on a Sunday,on some madeup pretext,like they're a traffic hazard or something.
    They create a barrier, they really do.

    It's very hard to communicate with someone when they're completely covered


  • #15
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    It would be like us banning the Africans from wearing those really bright clothes some of them wear on a Sunday,on some madeup pretext,like they're a traffic hazard or something.

    Brightly coloured clothes don't make you unrecognisable.

    And before anyone goes off on a Muslim/terrorist rant, remember that motorcyclists are not allowed to wear their helmets for the the exact same reason.....that doesn't mean that they assume all motorcyclists are calling in for a hold-up, and motorcyclists don't object or demand their "rights".


  • #16
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Brightly coloured clothes don't make you unrecognisable.

    And before anyone goes off on a Muslim/terrorist rant, remember that motorcyclists are not allowed to wear their helmets for the the exact same reason.....that doesn't mean that they assume all motorcyclists are calling in for a hold-up, and motorcyclists don't object or demand their "rights".

    OK.
    But I don't think the women ,who live a very traditional lifestyle,actually do the banking. But I see your point.
    AFAIK provisions are made when Muslim women ave to deal with bureaucracy ,they go in to an office ,where they must unveil themselves for recognition.


  • #17
    jenga-jen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭jenga-jen


    Balaclava's a bit more unisex. Any lad in a veil is gonna be in trouble...

    They're a pain in the arse those veils/burqas though, working in Dublin Airport we'd have to bring the wives into the bathroom to check their passports cos they can't show their faces in public


  • #18
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    motorcyclists are not allowed to wear their helmets for the the exact same reason......

    There is no law that says a motorcyclist cannot weat their helmet in the street should they choose to do so.

    Some business premises require motorists to remove their hemets before entering but this is an entirely private matter.


  • #19
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 11,245 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    It's impossible to avoid the terrorist angle. Could you imagine the IRA giving a 6 volley burial salute wearing veils?


    Balaclavas FTW.


  • #20
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    Muslim attacks,then.
    Meaning there's no security reason to ban the veil.
    They're doing it because they don't like it,
    It would be like us banning the Africans from wearing those really bright clothes some of them wear on a Sunday,on some madeup pretext,like they're a traffic hazard or something.

    They're being banned under France's ultra-secularist laws, if said brightly coloured clothes were also religious items they would probably also be banned. Imo France's idea of secularism goes too far, subjugating everyone to an idealised concept of french citizenship first ahead of their personal identity. At the same time burqas and similar traditional garb from the middle east are needlessly repressive, compared to a simple head scarf which is permissible in some Muslim societies.


  • #21
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Some business premises require motorists to remove their hemets before entering but this is an entirely private matter.

    That's what I was getting at; it's required, and it doesn't infringe on their "rights", but they can be barred if they don't comply.

    The same rule should apply.

    I will say that if Muslim women are singled out in public then it should apply across the board - including teens wearing hoodies up when it's not cold or raining.


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  • #22
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,651 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    That's what I was getting at; it's required, and it doesn't infringe on their "rights", but they can be barred if they don't comply.

    The same rule should apply.

    I will say that if Muslim women are singled out in public then it should apply across the board - including teens wearing hoodies up when it's not cold or raining.
    What temperature would it have to be before you were allowed to put your hood up?


  • #23
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    What temperature would it have to be before you were allowed to put your hood up?

    That I can't say; I only added those as an acknowledgement that hoods aren't always inappropriate.


  • #24
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    brianthebard wrote: »
    They're being banned under France's ultra-secularist laws, if said brightly coloured clothes were also religious items they would probably also be banned. Imo France's idea of secularism goes too far, subjugating everyone to an idealised concept of french citizenship first ahead of their personal identity. At the same time burqas and similar traditional garb from the middle east are needlessly repressive, compared to a simple head scarf which is permissible in some Muslim societies.

    Well why are they banning them only now?


  • #25
    donkey balls
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,994 ✭✭✭donkey balls


    slightly off topic i remember a couple of years ago my mates kids were in blanchardstown centre doing there shoping when this muslim couple got into the lift my mates youngest kid asked out loud mammy are they dressing up for halloween.


  • #26
    PCPhoto
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,584 ✭✭✭PCPhoto


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    There's no real use for a balaclava, unless you're on a snowmobile in Lapland.

    A more relevant question would be whether there's a difference between a hoodie and a veil.

    I'm sure most bikers would disagree ..... bally and neck gator are pretty much essential for cold mornings.


  • #27
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    Well why are they banning them only now?

    Because a rising immigrant population has brought a knee jerk reaction from the French government?
    Maybe Sarkozy's car was egged by teens.


  • #28
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    PCPhoto wrote: »
    I'm sure most bikers would disagree ..... bally and neck gator are pretty much essential for cold mornings.


    Yep I wear two, a wollen one and a thermal one over that.


  • #29
    MaybeLogic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭MaybeLogic


    brummytom wrote: »
    They create a barrier, they really do.

    It's very hard to communicate with someone when they're completely covered

    Why not?
    You're communicating with me now. You can't see me.
    You communicate with people on the phone as well when you can't see them.
    At least with a burka you get a pair of eyes, so there's a little more information and you get a sense of hand gestures and posture.
    That should make communication easier.


  • #30
    brummytom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭brummytom


    MaybeLogic wrote: »
    Why not?
    You're communicating with me now. You can't see me.
    You communicate with people on the phone as well when you can't see them.
    At least with a burka you get a pair of eyes, so there's a little more information and you get a sense of hand gestures and posture.
    That should make communication easier.
    Yeah, I completely understand where you're coming from.

    I can't think how to say what I mean. Talking via the internet is a completely different form of communication altogether. We can't gage emotion, expression or sarcasm in the way we can face-to-face. Say you go to a bank, or post-office, or train station. You're talking to a person face to face, but through either a microphone or a small slot in the plastic aren't you? It's a very strange sort of communication, it's not quite natural.

    Heh, maybe it's just me. I find talking to women in burqas very disconcerting, but that's just my opinion.


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  • #31
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    France have, in my opinion, every right to ban the wearing of the veil. Islamic Law does not require women to wear a veil and cover their faces in public.

    The Quran enjoins both men and women to dress modestly & expects both men & women to cover their bodies from the ankles to the neck and the arms above the elbow.

    Many Islamic fundamentalist movements believe their religion prescribes the covering of women's faces - and they are in the headlines in one country or another almost very week for punishing women who fail to wear what they consider to be proper Islamic dress. But that is largely a political statement.

    Islam itself merely prescribes modesty rather than actually forcing the wearing of a particular garment.

    A woman wearing baggy jeans, a jumper and an unobtrusive scarf in a Western country could be more in accordance with the spirit of Islamic law than another woman who wore the full costume of an alien culture.


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