Govt considering lowering minimum wage

Nehaxak · 26-01-2010 07:04PM

All the people on this thread calling for a lowering of the minimum wage - I take it you're all from IBEC, backing up each other in a concerted effort to bolster support as if to suggest or give the impression that the need to lower the minimum wage is a widely held belief among the general public ?

I say that because I cannot for the life of me ever, ever, ever imagine an ordinary Joe soap worker calling for further cuts to their minimum wage and hailing moves to do so as anything but unjust and FF pandering once again, as always, to the wealthy elite who seem to thrive off the misfortune of the Irish working class.

If shilling is banned on boards when it comes to advertising and so forth, shouldn't it also apply to threads of this nature where it's quiet clear the intentions of a few, in a concerted nature, are to usurp, de-stabilise and/or to otherwise just piss all over the working man/woman on a hard earned abysmal minimum wage, continuously, over and over, thread after thread, on this and many other Irish forums and through propagandist spin in the media.

Far as I'm concerned, IBEC and its associates should be proscribed as they bare many a hallmark of a terrorist organisation intent on destabilising a country from within, starting with its economy and the hard earned workers' rights.

They give nothing, absolutely nothing to this country, they're in it for themselves and their members and every worker in Ireland is fair game to be pissed on.

It's not on and it's not fair.

ei.sdraob · 26-01-2010 07:15PM

the_syco wrote: »

Check again.

if thats the case (are you sure? taught you can still get medical card, being on min wage after means testing)

yet more reasons so to go on welfare than bothering to work a full week on min wage so...

see here

Peared wrote: »

Medical card is means tested so minimum wage can mean you may still get it.

Also I have never heard of people on the dole getting free travel? Is it not only the elderly?

The difference between the minumum wage and dole in a lot of cases is dignity imo.

smellyfinger · 26-01-2010 07:19PM

[QUOTE

as for healthcare anyone on minimum wage can avail of free healthcare in this country last i checked, if they cant they be be better of on dole woth free healthcare which is not substantially less than min wage

[/QUOTE]
what country are you living in. its €50 every time you visit doctor down here.

ei.sdraob · 26-01-2010 07:19PM

Nehaxak wrote: »

Far as I'm concerned, IBEC and its associates should be proscribed as they bare many a hallmark of a terrorist organisation intent on destabilising a country from within, starting with its economy and the hard earned workers' rights.

yes because IBEC are the ones striking recently and holding the country ransom :rolleyes:

Laminations · 26-01-2010 07:21PM

It was refreshing to hear Ben Dunne comment on this on newstalk yesterday, not sure if its on podcast. He thinks minimum wage is not the issue, the issue is middle and top level management paying themselves too much.

Here's my view. If a company needs to drop below minimum wage they should have to prove to the government that they are in dire straits. Part of this proof should be evidence that pay has reduced considerably from the top levels down. Then the government should allow the company to pay less while they make up the difference (rather than having more workers on the dole). It should only be allowed in extreme cases and only for existing companies.

ei.sdraob · 26-01-2010 07:22PM

smellyfinger wrote: »

what country are you living in. its €50 every time you visit doctor down here.

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=9765

A couple with four children and an income of just over €82,000 a year after tax and PRSI can now qualify for the GP visit card, according to the Department of Health. The visit card entitles you to free GP visits, but not to free drugs.
...
According to the Department of Health, as a result of the change, the GP visit card should be available to the following people with typical outgoings and the following income after tax and PRSI:

* A couple with two children earning about €1,200 a week, €63,400 a year.

* A couple with four children earning about €1,580 a week, €82,160 a year;

* A single parent with one child earning about €1,000 a week, €52,000 a year;

* A single person with no dependants earning about €426 a week, €22,152 a year.

there is the free visit scheme > http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/entitlements/Medical_Cards/mcgpvcguidelines.pdf

A GP Visit Card is confirmation that the HSE will provide free access to GP Services
only to individuals and families. A person qualifies in much the same way as for a
Medical Card except that the Income Guidelines are currently 50% higher.

Shea O'Meara · 26-01-2010 07:29PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

:rolleyes:

what the hell are you talking about? way to jump to a crazy conclusion

i didnt say abolish minimum wage anywhere in this thread did i? i said lower it to UK levels and some jobs will be created, thats better than no jobs considering there are 400,000 people sitting doing nothing

do people in UK who work on lower min wage than here toil in "sweatshops"? or do they use child labour in UK?
of course if any of those unemployed emigrate to UK (etc) and get a min wage job (as many are doing) there that will only help their economy.

I read your post as saying you could hire more people if you didn't have to meet minimum wage requirements. Am I right?
This sets a very bad precident and leaves those with little other option open to abuse. Lots of people are in low paying jobs because it's all they can get. Should we be setting the bar lower so someone can hold the title 'employed' even if they'd be better off tap dancing for loose change on Grafton Street?

97i9y3941 · 26-01-2010 07:33PM

update-
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-to-relax-rules-on-payment-of-minimum-wage-443586.html

The Government is to allow the minimum wage not be paid in certain sectors of the economy.

Legislation is to go through the Dáil that will allow an "inability to pay" clause be invoked in certain industries such as catering, hairdressing, retail and agriculture sectors.

The Government said it will only be allowed happen when the majority of workers consent to it and the accounts of the business prove that it is in financial difficulties.

Labour Affairs Minister Dara Calleary said the Government is responding to the economic crisis and the move is not aimed at driving down wages.

i cant see this working,if i was a very rich businessman,and interviewing candiates for the job,and hide my money off shore or in some other assets like most people do to avoid taxes,i could say oh times are hard so i am going to pay you below min of wage,dont worry though we are opening up new stores all the time!

97i9y3941 · 26-01-2010 07:37PM

Laminations wrote: »

It was refreshing to hear Ben Dunne comment on this on newstalk yesterday, not sure if its on podcast. He thinks minimum wage is not the issue, the issue is middle and top level management paying themselves too much.

unfortantly those at the top have the most power,personally i think those running aer lingus are bleeding it dry,preaching to everyone cuts must be made whilst givening themselfs massive pay package.

Laminations · 26-01-2010 07:41PM

Fred83 wrote: »

update-
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-to-relax-rules-on-payment-of-minimum-wage-443586.html

i cant see this working,if i was a very rich businessman,and interviewing candiates for the job,and hide my money off shore or in some other assets like most people do to avoid taxes,i could say oh times are hard so i am going to pay you below min of wage,dont worry though we are opening up new stores all the time!

True, but isn't it an oxymoron for a rich businessman to be saying times are hard? If your business isn't viable for the workers on the minimum wage then it can't be viable for the boss on any wage above the industrial average. That would weed out those who are putting profit before workers and company

Shea O'Meara · 26-01-2010 07:41PM

Fred83 wrote: »

update-
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-to-relax-rules-on-payment-of-minimum-wage-443586.html

i cant see this working,if i was a very rich businessman,and interviewing candiates for the job,and hide my money off shore or in some other assets like most people do to avoid taxes,i could say oh times are hard so i am going to pay you below min of wage,dont worry though we are opening up new stores all the time!

Technically this would apply to all high level Banking staff (as they're funded on state borrowings).....wonder if they'll implement it?:P

ei.sdraob · 26-01-2010 07:44PM

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I read your post as saying you could hire more people if you didn't have to meet minimum wage requirements. Am I right?
This sets a very bad precident and leaves those with little other option open to abuse. Lots of people are in low paying jobs because it's all they can get. Should we be setting the bar lower so someone can hold the title 'employed' even if they'd be better off tap dancing for loose change on Grafton Street?

no you are wrong if you read this thread *carefully* you would see that i said that lowering to even the UK level would make it possible to create jobs in my case,

i see the need for welfare and min wage, i dont see the need for them being so high

somehow you jumped to the conclusion that i think min wage should be abolished completely, i didnt say anything like that

now that i think of it, hell with the idea, trying to run or grow a business is this country is a waste of time, no wonder companies are leaving in droves its not worth the hassle

Laminations · 26-01-2010 07:50PM

Fred83 wrote: »

unfortantly those at the top have the most power,personally i think those running aer lingus are bleeding it dry,preaching to everyone cuts must be made whilst givening themselfs massive pay package.

Couldn't agree more, and this type of behaviour is rampant I'd reckon.
Look at the IAA, one rule for the workers and another for the bosses
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0509/1224246190751.html

Authority chief, Eamon Brennan's basic pay rose last year by 22 per cent to €253,000.

Mr Brennan recently agreed to take a 10 per cent cut in his basic pay. He told The Irish Times that his bonus this year would be about one-third less than the €63,000 he earned last year.

Why is this man getting a bonus?? Are we not in a financial crisis??

97i9y3941 · 26-01-2010 07:54PM

wasnt there an convenient loophole stopping civil servants from getting some cut,personally i think 10% cut will mean nothing to the likes of brendan drumm,he will have a healthy pension and house at the end of it all.

Now as for factor of wages/dole,well they slowly and surely undoing the generous welfare system we have,but no sign of them questioning people who spent years on it..

irishh_bob · 26-01-2010 08:24PM

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

When times are tough we hit the old, the education system, the hospitals, the unemployed, single mothers and the homeless. Because as we all know they are the underlying reason for all our economic ills.:rolleyes:
Instead of berating those who caused the problems, and believe me they will not personally have much of a lifestyle change because of the current economy, they have us turning on each other and focusing on those with the least representation and quietest voice.
Minimum wage is called so because it is the minimum salary deemed able to support a person based on the cost of living. The judges and government officials, bankers, TV personalities etc have the luxury of choosing to muck in with their fellow countrymen in these hard times.
And we are far too quick, possibly, in my view, in a misguided attempt at not seeming economically naive, to back this idea of tightening the collective bootstraps by penalizing those in society who seldom if ever benefit from any so called boom and have probably been on minimum wage for generations if fortunate enough to have a job.
It's a disgrace and we should be ashamed for falling for it and in some minds, thinking we are being simply economically savvy for considering backing it.
We need to have some class.

how have the old been hit of late

irishh_bob · 26-01-2010 08:29PM

Laminations wrote: »

It was refreshing to hear Ben Dunne comment on this on newstalk yesterday, not sure if its on podcast. He thinks minimum wage is not the issue, the issue is middle and top level management paying themselves too much.

Here's my view. If a company needs to drop below minimum wage they should have to prove to the government that they are in dire straits. Part of this proof should be evidence that pay has reduced considerably from the top levels down. Then the government should allow the company to pay less while they make up the difference (rather than having more workers on the dole). It should only be allowed in extreme cases and only for existing companies.

ben dunne is a populist waffler , always has been

the_syco · 26-01-2010 09:13PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

if thats the case (are you sure? taught you can still get medical card, being on min wage after means testing)

yet more reasons so to go on welfare than bothering to work a full week on min wage so...

see here

Actually, it says "if your sole income is the maximum rate of a means-tested payment" which is a bit different to getting one on minimum wage. It seems to mean that if you're getting less than minimum wage, you could get the card (but only if you're not self-employed).

ei.sdraob · 26-01-2010 09:19PM

the_syco wrote: »

Actually, it says "if your sole income is the maximum rate of a means-tested payment" which is a bit different to getting one on minimum wage. It seems to mean that if you're getting less than minimum wage, you could get the card (but only if you're not self-employed).

thanks for the clarification

no wonder some people might not bother getting a min wage job and would opt to stay on dole, in-order not to loose a medcard

rather sad state of affairs alright and a powerful disincentive to work

the_syco · 26-01-2010 09:38PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

thanks for the clarification

no wonder some people might not bother getting a min wage job and would opt to stay on dole, in-order not to loose a medcard

rather sad state of affairs alright and a powerful disincentive to work

No problem, and yes, it is. If the children is in any way needing medication, esp of the kid is f**ked up and needs a lot of it, staying on the dole is often the best option. Otherwise, they may be living in worse housing, with less money, whilst paying for the bills to get the kid medicated, etc.

the_syco · 26-01-2010 09:42PM

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/17200435/?view=Standard

The Government is to allow the minimum wage not be paid in certain sectors of the economy.

Legislation is to go through the Dáil that will allow an "inability to pay" clause be invoked in certain industries such as catering, hairdressing, retail and agriculture sectors.

The Government said it will only be allowed happen when the majority of workers consent to it and the accounts of the business prove that it is in financial difficulties.

Labour Affairs Minister Dara Calleary said the Government is responding to the economic crisis and the move is not aimed at driving down wages.

Ah yes, the old "vote yes, or I'll sack you all" trick. I can see this happening in quite a few places.

Now, for the fun part. Before an employer can take on people, they must first look to getting an Irish person employed. But, if the dole is abetter option, they may not take the employers sh|tty wage. Would the employer then legally be able to import people from outside Ireland to work on this new low wage?

97i9y3941 · 26-01-2010 11:16PM

the_syco wrote:

Would the employer then legally be able to import people from outside Ireland to work on this new low wage?

i would say so yes,i mean looking at time when argos workers went on strike,they brought in staff from england,or when "irish" ferries put the gun to the workers heads and made them switch to cypriot workers to do the job,but of course the goverment sat back on both occasions and said oh we cant do anything, but of course they would never allow to outsource our goverment or public sector,this is where we f#cked up,we out sourced everything,even in britain and germany they are proud they would made sure their own people where looked after first

Amhran Nua · 27-01-2010 01:20PM

the_syco wrote: »

Would the employer then legally be able to import people from outside Ireland to work on this new low wage?

And of course with free movement of labour from accession states, that gives a massive mobile workforce to Irish employers who will work for less than minimum wage. This will lead to serious abuse. Minimum wage is an important issue, and I don't think it should be abolished or allowed to be slipped through the backdoor.

Lets look first at high rents within municipal areas, and cartel behaviour within hospitality and retail sectors to deal with high costs in Ireland, as well as similar behaviour from importers to Ireland. Irish wages are not especially large, and few enough people are actually on minimum wage.

At its most basic, how do they expect people to start spending in the economy again if their wages are being cut from an already low level? Not everyhting thats good for business profits is good for the overall economy (or tax receipts).

partyguinness · 27-01-2010 01:27PM

I remember going mental when it was brought it in the first place and then Mary Harney kept raising it.

The words 'horse' and 'bolted' spring to mind.

I just cldnt understand it. It was plainly obvious that it is was unsustainable but those dumbwits in the PDs taught it was good and would make every one feel smug about themsleves.

This country is retarded...nobody plans, nobody has any interest in getting a job done properly if a short cut can be taken. Doing the proper thing is an alien concept....:mad:

Sorry just my "I told you so 10 years ago" rant.

anymore · 27-01-2010 03:56PM

I have always found it funny that FF Minister of State from Cork's Northside, Billy Kelleher has advocated reducing the minimum wage given that his constituency office is in Dillon's Cross. This is an areas that has a higher proportion of unemployed and minimum wage earners than in most parts of Cork. It has seemed to me be a terrible betrayal of some many of the working class people who traditionally vote for FF.
Then again Billy Kelleher is both a farmer and a landlord, so he can hardly expect to empathise with the unemployed or minimum wage worker.

97i9y3941 · 28-01-2010 01:16AM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

At its most basic, how do they expect people to start spending in the economy again if their wages are being cut from an already low level? Not everyhting thats good for business profits is good for the overall economy (or tax receipts).

im sorry if this causes murder,but its the joe soap i feel sorry for,the person doing the min wage jobs,they been told getting their hours cut already etc,ok we have the public sector telling us the same stuff about their wages been cut,but joe soap cant afford to really argue with employer about getting his min wage lowered,he doesnt have the same protection as the public worker has..

RTÉ Prime Time: David · 28-01-2010 01:13PM

I'm a producer for RTE's Prime Time and I'm looking to get in contact with people who are currently on the minimum wage who might be interested in contributing to a programme on the subject.

I'm looking for people who have perhaps lost a job in another industry and who are now having to work for minimum wage and couples where one of whom is on minimum wage.

However I'm interested to hear from anyone who is on minimum wage and feels they have a story to tell.

David

david.lawless@rte.ie

Eliot Rosewater · 28-01-2010 01:48PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And of course with free movement of labour from accession states, that gives a massive mobile workforce to Irish employers who will work for less than minimum wage.

The question is: whats the problem with that? Why cant Irish people compete with other EU citizens?

Theres a large misconception out there that foreigners can work for less because its cheaper where they are from. The assumption is that the foreign workers are sending money home to support their families.

In my experience its off the mark. The main reason, from what I can see, that Eastern Europeans work for less is because they live for less. They shop in the cheap shops and don't go out on the town; instead they have house parties in their homes. Irish people arent willing to accept that working unskilled jobs shouldn't yield the kind of living standard they feel entitled to.

Permabear · 28-01-2010 02:11PM

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob · 28-01-2010 02:33PM

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Irish people arent willing to accept that working unskilled jobs shouldn't yield the kind of living standard they feel entitled to.

well said and there lies the problem, its very hard to "downsize" dreams and expectations for some

during the boom while we had 100,000 people (granted most of these 100K weren't all wasters, and some were between jobs, but we all know someone who didnt bother getting a job even in best of times and chose to become a government artist) on dole we had to import people in order to work at jobs that no one wanted, and didnt have much better benefits than dole

97i9y3941 · 28-01-2010 05:52PM

well,we have loads of people with their degrees and dipolmas these days,but theres not enough work for them either..

Govt considering lowering minimum wage

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