Govt considering lowering minimum wage

97i9y3941

source-http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-considering-lowering-minimum-wage-443230.html

Workers in the hospitality sector may soon see their wages fall.

The Government is considering allowing employers in the hospitality, retail and construction sectors to claim an 'inability to pay' the legally-defined minimum wage.

The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment Mary Coughlan said that the lowering of the minimum wage in these sectors "would only apply where employees agreed to the measure in order to keep their jobs".

The Tánaiste said the matter is currently before the Labour Court.

lovely,i cant wait for the race to the bottom routine again,i know we can afford to do it now since cost of living as falling,but not fast enough,and i think this is basically givening people a chance to exploit this if it comes into law..

Overheal

So, while people are making more money on the Dole than they are in a minimum wage job, theyre lowering the minimum wage.

Reeks of brilliance.

carrieb

Jesus!!
I just lost my job in a cafe and thought I was really lucky to get another one within a few days.
I love the new job but unfortunately my new boss pays everyone minimum wage.
I had no choice but to take it, I have a mortgage.
It hardly seems worth my while though, I made what I would have gotten from the dole this week and I worked my ass off.
I can't imagine earning any less.

Zardoz

They should reduce social welfare instead of reducing the minimum wage.
You can get almost 23 hours minimum wage just for sitting on your arse each week.
What incentive will there be for people on the dole if the minimum wage is cut ?
Its a vicious cycle the country is in now.
Social welfare is far too high and the minimum wage is too high too but due to pandering to the public the Govt wont reduce social welfare and due to the stranglehold the unions have built up over the last 10 years the min wage cant be reduced either.
Its a farce.

Liam Byrne

With so many costs coming down, it would make sense; lower wages will make us more competitive while lower costs mean that people can still get by.

Unfortunately, insurance and loan/mortgage costs (which account for 50% of what most people earn) have NOT come down.

So - as usual - people simply trying to get by get hammered.

If - as unwilling bank investers/slush fund - they said "we'll bail you out if you lower costs and stop paying millions to your directors and get your shareholders to realise the FACT that there would be no profits or dividends if they hadn't bailed them out, and so the costs came down (and therefore the interest rates and charges) then the lower costs would be across the board, and this would be fair enough.

But unfortunately, this government doesn't think in terms of fairness.

ei.sdraob

aren't the employers in "hospitality, retail and construction sectors" obliged to pay nowadays a minimum wage that is above the national minimum wage?

anyways cue "race to the bottom" opinion pieces in this thread

mind you "bottom" is exactly where we all endup if some people in this country continue sticking spuds in ears and chanting "we dont need to be competitive, the difference is were Irish..."

brianthebard

Liam Byrne wrote: »

With so many costs coming down, it would make sense; lower wages will make us more competitive while lower costs mean that people can still get by.

I have to say it; competitive with who? The article claims this relates to the retail, construction and hospitality industries only, so this isn't going to entice new MNC's, or help keep any that are here. Along with that, who are we going to compete with-Poland? Taiwan? India? Never going to be possible.

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

I have to say it; competitive with who? The article claims this relates to the retail, construction and hospitality industries only, so this isn't going to entice new MNC's, or help keep any that are here. Along with that, who are we going to compete with-Poland? Taiwan? India? Never going to be possible.

how about UK?

Eliot Rosewater

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But unfortunately, this government doesn't think in terms of fairness.

The government doesnt seem to think in terms of your idea of fairness. Fairness is a subjective concept and means different things to different people. There is no one definition of fair.


The minimum wage needs to be lowered. It has made this country totally uncompetitive. Dell leaving Ireland is an example. The minimum wage is used as a benchmark for many business, so it doesn't just effect those directly on it. For example Aldi will base the wage they pay their staff on the minimum wage as they are in labour competition with other supermarket chains.

If the minimum wage is to be lowered the dole would have to be lowered too. Even at the moment living on the dole is a viable career choice. People are consciously not taking jobs as the dole is more suited to them. This should not be what the dole is about.

And this "race to the bottom" slogan means absolutely nothing. The labour market is a competitive market.

djsomers

The minimum wage will not be brought down. I am sick of the types of IBEC and ISME, etc calling for this. It's a farce, it would suit everyone much better to decrease the PRSI levy paid by employers.

smellyfinger

i recently laid off one of my employees,a polish man,excellent worker,was with me all last tear and all 2006 and 2007,2009 was quiet so he worked elsewhere. he lives with his girlfriend and has 2 kids aged 6 and 4. his take home pay was €600 for 5 days and his pension contributions and class a stamp was paid,he had a company van and diesel paid for. any saturdays were paid on time and a half,a great worker and never missed a day,this is my gripe. he is receiving welfare now of 385 and rent allowance of 116 which is 501 total,he has a medical card and is getting his nicotine patches paid for by the medical card,he was shoking 30 fags a day costing 84 a week so he is only 15 euro a week worse off on welfare, and in fairness he calls me up every week looking for his old job back should construction pick up,WHERES THE INCENTIVE TO WORK.

97i9y3941

i admired the eastern europeans they are hard workers and they took up the jobs that the irish where too proud of to take up or during the so called boom they woundnt be seen dead incase the jones would see them,

now someone mentioned the cost of business,someone with a high turn over might cry cost of running it to exploit the law to say we cant afford to pay you so we pay you nothing

djsomers

Why should we incentivies lazy people to work. Smellyfinger, you made a great point. Your previous employee is now only 15 Euro worse off on the dole, but he still wants to work. This is the issue, most people want to work for a good pay. Why should the tax payer deal out money for those who don't want to work. It should be stick not carrot. Lowering the basic wage will cripple a lot of people and good workers, production will slip and strikes will be called.

Red_Marauder

I would go further than to say we should lower it, we should completely abolish it.

The minimum wage has no place in this economy whatever. It's a relic of arrogance that we can no longer afford. While it will not allow us to compete with India, Korea or Bangladesh, rejecting this ridiculous rule will lower the cost of living and make us a more attractive place to do business.

And yes, social welfare needs drastic cuts as well in line with this. I don't like the fact that we live in a society where the state hands people 200 euro per week for doing nothing at all.

djsomers

Red_Marauder wrote: »

The minimum wage has no place in this economy whatever. It's a relic of arrogance that we can no longer afford. While it will not allow us to compete with India, Korea or Bangladesh, rejecting this ridiculous rule will lower the cost of living ...

Can you explain exaclty how abolishing the minimum wage will lower the cost of living????

Red_Marauder

Isn't it obvious? The less disposable income people have, the harder businesses must work to make them part with it, therefore cutting costs.
Furthermore, it reduces businesses' operational costs, because a huge factor at the moment is staff wages compared to our EU partners.

So prices fall.

97i9y3941

if they abolished the min wage woundnt that make people better off on the dole?..

djsomers

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Isn't it obvious?

No?

Red_Marauder wrote: »

The less disposable income people have, the harder businesses must work to make them part with it, therefore cutting costs.

What?

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Furthermore, it reduces businesses' operational costs, because a huge factor at the moment is staff wages compared to our EU partners.

By how much 1-2% (if employers want to gamble not loosing their employees by paying them less than current minimum wage)? Getting rid of PRSI levies will avoid over 10% costs to companies in most cases.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

So prices fall.

I cannot see how you came to this conclusion

Red_Marauder

djsomers wrote: »

What?

This is the internet, you're not supposed to hear something.

The less money people have, the harder businesses work to get that money. Sales and special promotions decrease the cost of living. Because manufacturing costs will go down (because of workers being paid less), the raw cost of goods will also fall at source themselves.

By how much 1-2% (if employers want to gamble not loosing their employees by paying them less than current minimum wage)

Do you seriously think people can afford to walk out of jobs that are paying a euro less per hour? That kind of money does make a huge difference to employers when you spread it over a company.

I cannot see how you came to this conclusion

I think you just don't like it, but I'm pretty sure you do see how that conclusion is reached. it is very very simple.

djsomers

Businesses are already trying to compete with the North of Ireland and cannot. Shops and businesses are losing trade, they cannot afford to "Work harder" for less. I am not trying to condescend your argument, but it does not stand up. Lowering the minimum wage will not lower the cost of living.

amcalester

Even if the minimum wage is lowered it will only affect those people starting out in minimum wage jobs. Not those already in employment.

djsomers

But surely there would be a trickle-down effect. Employers would be forced into lowering wages by following other businesses. It won't happen in any case, the minimum wage is safe.

Victor

smellyfinger wrote: »

he is receiving welfare now of 385 and rent allowance of 116 which is 501 total

Can someone fix me up with this deal, because I think what you are saying is bull?

Red_Marauder

djsomers wrote: »

Businesses are already trying to compete with the North of Ireland and cannot.

The most common reason for this, as cited by Irish businesses operating in the border area, is the fact that operating costs are so high in the Republic.
Tackling the wages problem would be of huge help to allow us compete.

Shops and businesses are losing trade, they cannot afford to "Work harder" for less.

Then they need to look at the economy around them and get real. There's either that or go out of business. If an individual won't work for 7.60 an hour, an employer won't have trouble finding one who will.
Of course, that would have to be combined with lowering the Jobseekers Allowance.

Lowering the minimum wage will not lower the cost of living.

You reject that it would lower the cost of doing business here, therefore making goods and services more affordable?
You also reject the idea that if people have less money, retailers and service providers have to lower their prices to make themselves more affordable?
I don't see how these can be seriously contested?

djsomers

Red_Marauder wrote: »

You reject that it would lower the cost of doing business here, therefore making goods and services more affordable?
You also reject the idea that if people have less money, retailers and service providers have to lower their prices to make themselves more affordable?
I don't see how these can be seriously contested?

I do not reject that it would lower the cost of doing business here. I just see that lowering the basic wage would mean the people on the lower end would be shafted as businesses would not lower thier prices since most people would still be earning their usual salaries.

Eliot Rosewater

djsomers wrote: »

businesses would not lower thier prices since most people would still be earning their usual salaries.

Did you ever hear of competition?

Lower minimum wage will result in lower operating costs for supermarkets. These will be passed onto the consumer as supermarkets are in competition with each other.

By going backwards we can see how the raising of the minimum wage has impacts far beyond lower paid workers. By forcibly raising wages without regards to economic conditions, minimum wage legislation raises the operating costs of many employers. These costs are passed onto the consumer and the cost of living goes up.

djsomers

The only supermarkets that pay minumum wage are the local small retailers who would be taken out of business by the bigger competitors if they lowered their prices further. This would not in any case lower the cost of living in Ireland.

the_syco

Fred83 wrote: »

i admired the eastern europeans they are hard workers and they took up the jobs that the irish where too proud of to take up or during the so called boom they woundnt be seen dead incase the jones would see them

During the "boom" most of said people who turned down jobs were those who saw the dole as a career choice. They would be the people who turned down any job.

Eliot Rosewater

djsomers wrote: »

The only supermarkets that pay minumum wage are the local small retailers who would be taken out of business by the bigger competitors if they lowered their prices further.

Huh?

As I said before, competition. The supermarkets are in competition to secure peoples labour. Although the amount of workers directly on minimum wage isn't huge I believe, the fact that the pay of a lot of other jobs are based on the minimum wage makes it highly influential. I used Aldi as an example. They pay 2 or 3 euro more than other retailers because they want the best workers.

Are you saying that the minimum wage doesn't have a large effect on the cost of living?

djsomers

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Are you saying that the minimum wage doesn't have a large effect on the cost of living?

It does not. I agree with you otherwise.

anymore

I am all for lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers.
Even the ESRI have said we wshould be getting used to raising Corporate tax rates.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

I am all for lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers.
Even the ESRI have said we wshould be getting used to raising Corporate tax rates.

great idea lets raise corpo tax to 20-40%

watch how many of these PAYE workers have a job left a month after this occurs

:rolleyes:

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

great idea lets raise corpo tax to 20-40%

watch how many of these PAYE workers have a job left a month after this occurs

:rolleyes:

You miss the point !
The rea;ity is that the artificially low Corporate tax rate more than compensates companies for any alleged disadvantages asssociated with the minimum wage. The desire of comapnies to see wages fall as the economy has entered recession wasnt accompanied by any desire to wages rise when the economy was booming. The natural tendency for wages to rise was curbed by the admittance of workers from eastern europe. Without the admittance of this new workers pool, in many cases wages in some sectors would have risen higher than they actually did.
Nor is it ever mentioned that the very existence of a minimum wage often resulted, partly from the ' herd mentality' in employers paying the lower minimum wage than they might otherwise offer.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

You miss the point !
The rea;ity is that the artificially low Corporate tax rate more than compensates companies for any alleged disadvantages asssociated with the minimum wage. The desire of comapnies to see wages fall as the economy has entered recession wasnt accompanied by any desire to wages rise when the economy was booming. The natural tendency for wages to rise was curbed by the admittance of workers from eastern europe. Without the admittance of this new workers pool, in many cases wages in some sectors would have risen higher than they actually did.
Nor is it ever mentioned that the very existence of a minimum wage often resulted, partly from the ' herd mentality' in employers paying the lower minimum wage than they might otherwise offer.

the low corporation tax (btw Cyprus have a lower one and companies are moving there now and they are in EU) is the only positive left for doing business in this country

remove that and overnight we go back to digging potatoes

The natural tendency for wages to rise is part of inflation, in case you haven't notice we are in a period of large deflation, yet wages and welfare have barely budged, is there some golden rule in economics that says that wages can only ever go up?

what you propose is so daft and shortsighted its not funny, if it were ever to happen i be on first plane out of here since i wont want to stick around to experience the complete destruction of the economy

yee socilalistas ask where the jobs are gone and why are they leaving the country? why not take of blinkers and look around

/

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the low corporation tax (btw Cyprus have a lower one and companies are moving there now and they are in EU) is the only positive left for doing business in this country

remove that and overnight we go back to digging potatoes

The natural tendency for wages to rise is part of inflation, in case you haven't notice we are in a period of large deflation, yet wages and welfare have barely budged, is there some golden rule in economics that says that wages can only ever go up?

what you propose is so daft and shortsighted its not funny, if it were ever to happen i be on first plane out of here since i wont want to stick around to experience the complete destruction of the economy

yee socilalistas ask where the jobs are gone and why are they leaving the country? why not take of blinkers and look around

/

Far be from me to try to prevent you taking that plane - if you need a lift to the airport, give me a shout.
The notion we are in a period of deflation is a gross simplification - in fact food prices are now rising significantly as are fuel prices. In fact some food stuffs, cheese for example, saw little or no defaltion. The main area of deflation, house proces, doesnt really affect people on minimum wage as many of these will be rented houses and/or in local authority accomodation.
None of the industries which the Government is trying to attract to Ireland pay minimum wages, there were almost no construction firms paying minimum wages - this push for minimum wage reduction is being driven mainly by the hospitality industry which has cut its own throat by being so successful in lobbying for tax breaks and the extension of tax breaks that it has resulted in massive over supply - this is where the market should be allowed to operate -
You are of course completely wrong around about wages not going down.
Try reading some ESRI literature on the subject of Ireland's Corporation tax rates.
Dont forget my offer to drive you to airport !

jmayo

brianthebard wrote: »

I have to say it; competitive with who? The article claims this relates to the retail, construction and hospitality industries only, so this isn't going to entice new MNC's, or help keep any that are here. Along with that, who are we going to compete with-Poland? Taiwan? India? Never going to be possible.

Ehh hospitality industry has huge knock on in tourism.
How many British people, and not the usual stag nighters, have stopped coming to ireland over last 7/8 years because guess what it was too f***ing expensive for accomodation, dining out etc.
Americans are not travelling anyway due to dollar, terrorism so we are even more reliant on our old friends the Brits.

anymore wrote: »

I am all for lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers.
Even the ESRI have said we wshould be getting used to raising Corporate tax rates.

OMG.
Are you in SF by any chance ?
Yeah the ESRI another bunch of economic forecasters.

FFS low corpo tax is one of the few advantages we have in attracting FDI.
Now like it not we are still dependent on FDI.

BTW I never subsribed to low corpo tax and low capital gains tax for property development that adds nothing to our export earning potential or attraction of foreign investment.

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

great idea lets raise corpo tax to 20-40%

watch how many of these PAYE workers have a job left a month after this occurs

:rolleyes:

So its either our current rate....or 40%? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

anymore

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh hospitality industry has huge knock on in tourism.
How many British people, and not the usual stag nighters, have stopped coming to ireland over last 7/8 years because guess what it was too f***ing expensive for accomodation, dining out etc.
Americans are not travelling anyway due to dollar, terrorism so we are even more reliant on our old friends the Brits.



OMG.
Are you in SF by any chance ?
Yeah the ESRI another bunch of economic forecasters.

FFS low corpo tax is one of the few advantages we have in attracting FDI.
Now like it not we are still dependent on FDI.

BTW I never subsribed to low corpo tax and low capital gains tax for property development that adds nothing to our export earning potential or attraction of foreign investment.

The ESRI's predictions about the effects on our economy from our over reliance on the construction sector combined with an external shock to the financial system have been completely vindicated - they have nothing to prove or defend.
A number of surveys have shown that our low corporation tax rate is down the list of priorities for companies in the high tech industry, the kind we are trying to attack. Many of the companies who are attrcted primarily by our low tax rate, tend to be low employment, name plate on the wall kind of companies.
No I am not a Sinn Fein member. I am not personally saying the Corporate tax rate should be increased. I am saying that the realities of a low tax rate must be recognised by those calling for a decrease in minimum wage. If they take the advantage of an artificially low tax rate, then they should not be allowed to ask the taxpayer to subsidise the cost of employing minimum wage workers. Reduce the minimum wage and many of these workers will qualify for increased Social welfare benefits and assistance of one kind or another - in other words part of the real cost of employing low wage workers will be transferred to the general taxpayer whilst companies will be insulated from the paying the cost of these transfers by virtue of the fact that the Corporate tax rate is so low.

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

So its either our current rate....or 40%? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

why dont you read what @anymore posted :rolleyes: before rolling them eyes and making a fool of yourself

anymore wrote: »

I am all for lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers.
Even the ESRI have said we wshould be getting used to raising Corporate tax rates.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

Far be from me to try to prevent you taking that plane - if you need a lift to the airport, give me a shout.
The notion we are in a period of deflation is a gross simplification - in fact food prices are now rising significantly as are fuel prices. In fact some food stuffs, cheese for example, saw little or no defaltion. The main area of deflation, house proces, doesnt really affect people on minimum wage as many of these will be rented houses and/or in local authority accomodation.
None of the industries which the Government is trying to attract to Ireland pay minimum wages, there were almost no construction firms paying minimum wages - this push for minimum wage reduction is being driven mainly by the hospitality industry which has cut its own throat by being so successful in lobbying for tax breaks and the extension of tax breaks that it has resulted in massive over supply - this is where the market should be allowed to operate -
You are of course completely wrong around about wages not going down.
Try reading some ESRI literature on the subject of Ireland's Corporation tax rates.!

some things went up (strange how its pretty much anything connected or controlled by government :cool:)

some things went down

overall across the board the cost of living went down by 5%

that my friend is deflation, if you are on same wage now as you are a year ago, and your taxes are the same you are 5% better off

anymore wrote: »

Dont forget my offer to drive you to airport !

i might have to take a boat, seems your trade unions have decided to **** around with air transport in this country

SLUSK

Abolish the dole and abolish the minimum wage. If you find someone willing to work for €1 per hour it should be legal to hire this person over someone who wants €10 for the same job.

brianthebard

SLUSK wrote: »

Abolish the dole and abolish the minimum wage. If you find someone willing to work for €1 per hour it should be legal to hire this person over someone who wants €10 for the same job.

And yet, right wingers that this sort of thing is a race to the bottom?

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

And yet, right wingers that this sort of thing is a race to the bottom?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64145172&postcount=6

ei.sdraob wrote: »

....

anyways cue "race to the bottom" opinion pieces in this thread

mind you "bottom" is exactly where we all endup if some people in this country continue sticking spuds in ears and chanting "we dont need to be competitive, the difference is were Irish..."

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

why dont you read what @anymore posted :rolleyes: before rolling them eyes and making a fool of yourself

If I knew every single word i used was going to be minutely analysed, I would have said " raised to higher levels or to 20% or to 21.7544444% or 25.9999999499595 % ......... or .........whatever.
Address the substance of the arguement.

SLUSK

Government should not interfer with voluntary contracts between employer and employee. Lower wages would be good for you since the minimum wage is ridiculously high. Sweden which is known to be a so called socialist country does not have any minimum wage laws. Here the "minimum wage" is set in agreement between companies and the unions.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

If I knew every single word i used was going to be minutely analysed, I would have said " raised to higher levels or to 20% or to 21.7544444% or 25.9999999499595 % ......... or .........whatever.
Address the substance of the arguement.

At 20% (the standard rate):
the first €36,400, for individuals without dependent children
the first €40,400, for single or widowed persons qualifying for the One-Parent Family tax credit
the first €45,400, for married couples.
The balance of income is taxed at 41% (the higher rate).

thats a 20 to 40% taxband we have

apply the same to corporations and most of the people employed in the private sector in this country will find themselves out of a job

then again that seems exactly what the trade unions want, as shown over and over by their actions their line of thinking is
"**** the rest of society and economy, must keep the fat members fat at all costs, even if that means theres no economy left"

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

some things went up (strange how its pretty much anything connected or controlled by government :cool:)

some things went down

overall across the board the cost of living went down by 5%

that my friend is deflation, if you are on same wage now as you are a year ago, and your taxes are the same you are 5% better off



i might have to take a boat, seems your trade unions have decided to **** around with air transport in this country

I supposed you would be surprised to know that I am not a member of a trade union, that I am not an employee and that I have a modestly small number of shares in Ryan Air !

that my friend is deflation, if you are on same wage now as you are a year ago, and your taxes are the same you are 5% better off

Simplistic superficial nonsense that you heard some gombeen politician parrot and that you have adopted as a mantra.
My cost of living across the board is now rising - that is an absolute fact, my income is down - that is an absolute fact. I am significantly worse off now than i have been. Ipso facto, I am not experiencing deflation, quite the opposite in fact.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

I supposed you would be surprised to know that I am not a member of a trade union, that I am not an employee and that I have a modestly small number of shares in Ryan Air !

that my friend is deflation, if you are on same wage now as you are a year ago, and your taxes are the same you are 5% better off

Simplistic superficial nonsense that you heard some gombeen politician parrot and that you have adopted as a mantra.
My cost of living across the board is now rising - that is an absolute fact, my income is down - that is an absolute fact. I am significantly worse off now than i have been. Ipso facto, I am not experiencing deflation, quite the opposite in fact.

ill put it in very simple terms to you

does a person deserve to get paid for the amount and quality of work they do

or is their pay based on what they are "entitled" to no matter how little work or how badly productive this person is

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

My cost of living across the board is now rising - that is an absolute fact, my income is down - that is an absolute fact. I am significantly worse off now than i have been. Ipso facto, I am not experiencing deflation, quite the opposite in fact.

so because the cost of living is rising for you

you "deserve" to get more wages, where have i heard that one before (benchmarking)


nothing to do with you being more productive, but everything to do with you being "entitled" to more

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

At 20% (the standard rate):
the first €36,400, for individuals without dependent children
the first €40,400, for single or widowed persons qualifying for the One-Parent Family tax credit
the first €45,400, for married couples.
The balance of income is taxed at 41% (the higher rate).

thats a 20 to 40% taxband we have

apply the same to corporations and most of the people employed in the private sector in this country will find themselves out of a job

then again that seems exactly what the trade unions want, as shown over and over by their actions their line of thinking is
"**** the rest of society and economy, must keep the fat members fat at all costs, even if that means theres no economy left"

The majority of trade union memebrs are not paid minimum wage rates, they are paid significantly more. The majority of minimum wage workers are not members of trade unions.
You are avoiding the essential relationship between low corporate tax rates and the real cost of paying minimum wages - the employer does not pay the full real cost of having people working at minimum wage rates - the general tax payer, through the Social Welfare system, subsidies the cost of minimum wage employment.
Address the substance if you are confident in your beliefs and stop being picky and arguementative about individual details

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so because the cost of living is rising for you

you "deserve" to get more wages, where have i heard that one before (benchmarking)


nothing to do with you being more productive, but everything to do with you being "entitled" to more

Dear me !
If I am not an ' employee', the question of my getting a wage does not arise therefore the emotive question of my ' deserving' wages does not arise. I introduced the personal details regarding myself merely to illustrate a point ! I have said you keep making generalisations. Try to set aside your prejudices and be more detached.