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Govt considering lowering minimum wage

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  • #62
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    anymore wrote: »
    The fact that the irish public service is over paid and utterly underproductive should not impinge on the minimum wage debate - there are few PS workers paid at only the minimum wage rate. In fact there are what would be regarded as low skill workers in the PS who, after their annual increments are paid, are actually paid more than some professionals in the private sector.

    However I am afraid i am less sympathetic to your " I have a great idea but the minimum wage makes it non viable '. If you are inefficient, dont blame it on your would be workers. if you want to pay sweat shop wages, move to a sweat shop economy - mind you, you probably wouldn't last too long in that environment.

    if i could automate this planned job then there be no need to employ people at all

    but hey the numbers balance out and profit could be made if Ireland had same min wage as UK in the case of this idea

    maybe i should setup shop in the UK "sweat shop economy" and pay UK "ssweat shop wages"

    its a bad day when we cant even compete with UK anymore


  • #63
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    if i could automate this planned job then there be no need to employ people at all

    but hey the numbers balance out if Ireland had same min wage as UK in this case

    maybe i should setup shop in the UK "sweat shop economy" and pay UK "ssweat shop wages"

    its a bad day when we cant even compete with UK anymore

    Naturally you do not refer at all to UK's rates of tax, their far more efficient NHS etc, etc.
    Typical sweat shop mentality, look at the things to ' whinge ' about and ignore the rest.
    P.s high rate tax UK is coming out of the recession !


  • #64
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    If any given proposed project depended on, say, the minimum wage being, again say, 10 % or even 12.5% less than it actullay is at the moment, then the project is only marginally viable and liable to close in the face of stiff competition or in the face of some other economic shock.
    That is not the kind of platform to be depending upon to build a sustainable recovery and not a good are to be devoting valuable resources.


  • #65
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    anymore wrote: »
    If any given proposed project depended on, say, the minimum wage being, again say, 10 % or even 12.5% less than it actullay is at the moment, then the project is only marginally viable and liable to close in the face of stiff competition or in the face of some other economic shock.
    That is not the kind of platform to be depending upon to build a sustainable recovery and not a good are to be devoting valuable resources.

    its better than no project and no jobs

    you keep dreaming about your "knowledge" and "smart" economies and keep putting up barriers to doing business in this country

    you might find thats all it will be, a dream


  • #66
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    its better than no project and no jobs

    you keep dreaming about your "knowledge" and "smart" economies and keep putting up barriers to doing business in this country

    you might find thats all it will be, a dream
    For a man who was so eager to offer generalisations when hard facts would have been appropriate, you now want want to dwell on your particular ' lost project' and go on to apply it to general policy as reagrds economic policy.
    I recently looked back at one or two businesses I had in the past - 80's and 90's to see if they might be viable. But the reality is that the entire environment is different now and that would also be the case even if the recession were not so severe. They would if they were revued offer a modest number of low wage jobs, possibly. But it is not the minimum wage which makes them non viable. It is the entire environment from commercial rents to the presence of multi national competitors, to the changed expectations of the eventual consumers of whatever services or goods they might produce.
    That is the reality, no point in moping or crying out 'Foul '.
    I am not dreaming about ' smart ' economies or bemoaning the fact that I am not equipped to participate in these. And I dont begrudge for an instant those younger Irish people who can and do participate in them.
    I suspect my time has come and mainly gone and so I am more relaxed about taking a more detached view of things.


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  • #67
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    14.00 GONE FISHING !:D

    BACK....... WHENEVER !


  • #68
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    dan_d wrote: »
    ARE they lowering the minimum wage, or are they simply making it legal to agree with your employer that you'll take some sort of a wage cut to avoid losing your job, which many people have already done?
    I know that opens a door for many employers to cut wages using this claim. But right at this point in time, I get the impression that the way this story is being reported is very misleading.

    there are talks about it,even going to court agree on it,and as i said and as you pointed out aswell this could lead the to some rouge employers putting on poor mouth to avoid the min wage.

    now people are talking about the job schemes,according to todays independent,the scheme where you work whilst been paided on the dole will get you anywhere,except the public sector,so i have a feeling this is barring honest people or just discrimination..


  • #69
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    The supermarkets are in competition to secure peoples labour.
    Wrong. They're in competition to make the most profit.
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Are you saying that the minimum wage doesn't have a large effect on the cost of living?
    What countries have no minimum wage, and provide welfare?
    anymore wrote: »
    I am all for lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers.
    Even the ESRI have said we wshould be getting used to raising Corporate tax rates.
    Shinners wanted that. Unfortunately it'd mean every company would jump ship. We are already an expensive country to do business in, without raising the corpo tax.
    anymore wrote: »
    The notion we are in a period of deflation is a gross simplification - in fact food prices are now rising significantly as are fuel prices. In fact some food stuffs, cheese for example, saw little or no defaltion.
    Farmers are saying that they are getting to low a price for their produce - can't see the price of that going any lower.
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    anyways cue "race to the bottom" opinion pieces in this thread ;)

    mind you "bottom" is exactly where we all endup if some people in this country continue sticking spuds in ears and chanting "we dont need to be competitive, the difference is were Irish..."
    As the immergration laws here are extremely lax, what's to stop someone from within the EU from setting up shop here, and employing people at €2.88 an hour for 40 hours weeks. They'll get paid a thrid of what the minimum wage used to be, and make the company good money. If course, the employees will be barely above the breadline.
    anymore wrote: »
    14.00 GONE FISHING !:D
    Bastard :P Well for some :D


  • #70
    smellyfinger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭smellyfinger


    VICTOR.......its not bull,and while he was earning 600 a week he was also getting 100 family income supplement,i dont know why or how he is getting what he is getting but he showed me all his paperwork and its true.i have no reason to lie,.his polish cousin lives nextdoor and earns 480,his wife 360 and they get 250 family income supplement and 116 rent allowance,all i know is that in 2007 i paid 115k tax,i had 21 guys employed,probably contributed more money to revenue in that year than the entire travelling community ever will and now i cant get dole or stamps or nothing,yet the travellers are all driving new cars/vans,living in council houses and causing problems everywhere they go.the working man is only a fool.


  • #71
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    you have the EU and welfare rules to thank for that


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  • #72
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    the_syco wrote: »
    Wrong.

    In that case, why does Aldi pay higher wages than Dunnes Stores? Ill be interested to see how your answer to that reconciles with your perception that these two stores aren't in competition for labour.

    (Incidentally, is that sobbing the sound of every economist in the world crying with despair?)
    the_syco wrote: »
    What countries have no minimum wage, and provide welfare?

    I have absolutely no clue how that sentence related to the part of my post you quoted, or even the point you were trying to get at.


  • #73
    smellyfinger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭smellyfinger


    SLUSK wrote: »
    Abolish the dole and abolish the minimum wage. If you find someone willing to work for €1 per hour it should be legal to hire this person over someone who wants €10 for the same job.
    YES INDEED,as a self employed person its usually the cheapest quote that gets the job and minimum wage on a building site in ireland is around €16 an hour but up in northern ireland its £5.how do we compete, you can get a lady in to clean your house for minimum wage but if you get a lady in to clean a site office or work in a canteen on a building site its €16 an hour. this country is in a mess and will stay like this until we become competitive again.


  • #74
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    In that case, why does Aldi pay higher wages than Dunnes Stores?
    Aldi workers get worked harder. They stock shelves, do the tills, etc. Often see only 3 or 4 in the entire store. Whereas with Dunnes, I often see treble the amount.
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    I have absolutely no clue how that sentence related to the part of my post you quoted, or even the point you were trying to get at.
    My bad. I think I quoted the wrong person, as rereading it in relation to the bit I quoted makes no sense :o


  • #75
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    SLUSK wrote: »
    Government should not interfer with voluntary contracts between employer and employee. Lower wages would be good for you since the minimum wage is ridiculously high. Sweden which is known to be a so called socialist country does not have any minimum wage laws. Here the "minimum wage" is set in agreement between companies and the unions.


    were you banished from sweeden for your minority views slusk :D


  • #76
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭alex73


    SLUSK-on-150K wrote: »
    Sweden which is known to be a so called socialist country does not have any minimum wage laws.

    Yes, but they country still pays it via other routes. We need a Minimum wage, its one of the only good things about Ireland.


  • #77
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    alex73 wrote: »
    Yes, but they country still pays it via other routes. We need a Minimum wage, its one of the only good things about Ireland.

    "good" if you have a job

    not "good" if you are one of the 400,000 who cant get a job because it was either not created or worse moved abroad


  • #78
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    [.,all i know is that in 2007 i paid 115k tax,i had 21 guys employed,probably contributed more money to revenue in that year than the entire travelling community ever will and now i cant get dole or stamps or nothing,yet the travellers are all driving new cars/vans,living in council houses and causing problems everywhere they go.the working man is only a fool.[/QUOTE]

    I can vouch for the fact that there are Irish people who have contriubuted large sums of tax in the recent past but who are now regarded as Non - Persons as far as claiming any benefits now. You are means tested on capital that might be returning $70 - 80€ a week and it is regarded as being equivalent to € 500 a week !

    The new ' Displaced Persons ' in Ireland are really former self employed Irish citizens. Might as well put signs in Social Welfare reading ' No irish self Employed need apply'.


  • #79
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    if we lowered the min wage it mightnt still work,we are least competitive country when it comes to anything,and our smart/i.t ecnomony thing we touted about is load of bull since we are backwards when comes to our broadband..


  • #80
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    smellyfinger wrote: »
    YES INDEED,as a self employed person its usually the cheapest quote that gets the job and minimum wage on a building site in ireland is around €16 an hour but up in northern ireland its £5.how do we compete, you can get a lady in to clean your house for minimum wage but if you get a lady in to clean a site office or work in a canteen on a building site its €16 an hour. this country is in a mess and will stay like this until we become competitive again.

    For at least two years before the collapse, small irish subcontractors - guys who had formerly been employess and who struck out on thier own,- were being forced to lower their thier prices to try to compete with eastern european contractors who were working for almost the minimum wage - they just wanted the quick buck and lived 8/9 to a house.


    I have seen cases where people worked as e.g. painters and decorators for sub contractors on State and Semi State projects who were getting € 10 an hour and some of these people never received the monies they were due for over time, working bank hols etc. It was always ' we are waiting for money from main contractor '.
    Forget about the idea of cleaners being paid € 16 an hour ! Maybe it happened on some unionised sites in Dublin, but rarely elsewhere.


  • #81
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    When times are tough we hit the old, the education system, the hospitals, the unemployed, single mothers and the homeless. Because as we all know they are the underlying reason for all our economic ills.:rolleyes:
    Instead of berating those who caused the problems, and believe me they will not personally have much of a lifestyle change because of the current economy, they have us turning on each other and focusing on those with the least representation and quietest voice.
    Minimum wage is called so because it is the minimum salary deemed able to support a person based on the cost of living. The judges and government officials, bankers, TV personalities etc have the luxury of choosing to muck in with their fellow countrymen in these hard times.
    And we are far too quick, possibly, in my view, in a misguided attempt at not seeming economically naive, to back this idea of tightening the collective bootstraps by penalizing those in society who seldom if ever benefit from any so called boom and have probably been on minimum wage for generations if fortunate enough to have a job.
    It's a disgrace and we should be ashamed for falling for it and in some minds, thinking we are being simply economically savvy for considering backing it.
    We need to have some class.


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  • #82
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    right now i have and idea on how to expand business, and i can create several jobs that wont require training, since the main cost will be employee wage then unfortunately at 8.65/hour it wont be profitable to create these jobs, so the idea is put on shelf

    So you're saying if I paid two guys to do my job, giving them a third of my salary between them. I'd create two jobs and not have to do any work myself? Blast these liberal do-gooders.
    It must have broke your heart when they brought in child labour laws.


  • #83
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,584 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    It's not misfortune which keeps most people on minimum wage there.


  • #84
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    So you're saying if I paid two guys to do my job, giving them a third of my salary between them. I'd create two jobs and not have to do any work myself? Blast these liberal do-gooders.
    It must have broke your heart when they brought in child labour laws.

    :rolleyes:

    what the hell are you talking about? way to jump to a crazy conclusion

    i didnt say abolish minimum wage anywhere in this thread did i? i said lower it to UK levels and some jobs will be created, thats better than no jobs considering there are 400,000 people sitting doing nothing

    do people in UK who work on lower min wage than here toil in "sweatshops"? or do they use child labour in UK?
    of course if any of those unemployed emigrate to UK (etc) and get a min wage job (as many are doing) there that will only help their economy.


  • #85
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,584 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Why do we need a minimum wage when we have a social welfare system?

    In general you're not going to get staff to work for less than job seeker's allowance so doesn't it act as the same thing?!


  • #86
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    wtf are you talking about? way to jump to a crazy conclusion
    i didnt say abolish minimum wage anywhere in this thread did i? i said lower it to UK levels and some jobs will be created, thats better than no jobs considering there are 400,000 people sitting doing nothing

    do people in UK who work on lower min wage than here toil in "sweatshops"? or do they use child labour in UK?

    If you lower it to UK levels are you going to reduce all prices to UK levels??

    Are you going to make the health service free including visiting a GP???


  • #87
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    If you lower it to UK levels are you going to reduce all prices to UK levels??

    Are you going to make the health service free including visiting a GP???

    if the wages fall then the businesses have no excuse for not lowering prices

    the reason prices got so high here is due to rising wages pushing up inflation and feeding back on itself

    as for healthcare anyone on minimum wage can avail of free healthcare in this country last i checked, if they cant they be be better of on dole woth free healthcare which is not substantially less than min wage


    but of course we can just leave the euro and default and devalue as per (crazy) David McWilliams idea, then everyone will be poorer overnight, everyone in UK including the poorest and people on minimum wage are 30% poorer now than few years ago due to devaluation, thats the silent but deadly approach


  • #88
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    if the wages fall then the businesses have no excuse for not lowering prices

    the reason prices got so high here is due to rising wages pushing up inflation and feeding back on itself

    as for healthcare anyone on minimum wage can avail of free healthcare in this country last i checked, if they cant they be be better of on dole woth free healthcare which is not substantially less than min wage


    but of course we can just leave the euro and default and devalue as per (crazy) David McWilliams idea, then everyone will be poorer overnight, everyone in UK including the poorest and people on minimum wage are 30% poorer now than few years ago due to devaluation, thats the silent but deadly approach

    Minimum wage= Free healthcare??? Not the last time I looked.


  • #89
    Fighting_Irish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Fighting_Irish


    They need to drop the dole before dropping the minimum wage


  • #90
    skelliser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭skelliser


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    as for healthcare anyone on minimum wage can avail of free healthcare in this country


    what?


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  • #91
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    as for healthcare anyone on minimum wage can avail of free healthcare in this country last i checked, if they cant they be be better of on dole woth free healthcare which is not substantially less than min wage
    Check again.


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