Is Irish Neutrality a bit, you know, embarrassing?

faceman · 13-01-2010 12:06PM #1

Ive always seen Irish neutrality as something awesome. No conscription. No going to war for things we dont believe in. Not wasting as much money on military as other nations too. its all good.

According to our history books, following WWII, we introduced legislation to tighten our neutrality laws even further. This got me thinking. Imagine living in Ireland/Europe during WWII. Unlike modern day wars, there was no grey area about the war that was being fought. Hitler was rather nasty and his regime was doing bad things in Europe and he showed no regard for the rules of war.

And while the allies and our neighbouring countries got their a$$es whipped, us paddies took a backseat. (ok i know there were irish people who fought for the british army but that was their personal choice as opposed to the official Irish choice)

that must have been a bit of an embarrassment at the time. Im sure it made is look like a nation of pillocks too.

Now its not something later generations had to think about because we havent had wars like it since.

What do yizzer think? Should we build an army and start invading iceland?

AnonoBoy · 13-01-2010 12:10PM

DeValera signing the book of condolences in the German Embassy after Hitler's death was the real embarrassment.

Lockstep · 13-01-2010 12:12PM

Ireland was far from neutral in WWII.

ALlies had use of Irish airspace, information sharing and immediate repatriation of any downed/washed up servicemen.

THe reason was purely practical; joining the war would have severed Ireland in two. THe Civil War was less than 20 years ago and Ireland joining on the side of the British would have probably have erupted a new civil war.

Also, the Fitzgerald government were hoping to end neutrality but the Irish people firmly opposed it

folan · 13-01-2010 12:13PM

Not at all. We were right to remain neutral, imagine the devestation to a country that young, already in alot of trouble internally, to get involved in a war!

Fukuyama · 13-01-2010 12:14PM

I've always been proud of it. When I'm away in another country I don;t have to explain our country's foreign policy. That's why most people abroad hold the Irish in such high esteem.

'Never did nothing to nobody those Irish!'

Also, if we had of fought in WW2 it would have crushed our national identity. What little of it we had. Imagine, we spend hundreds of year fighting against the British only to be pressured by them into fighting alongside them!! (We did help them in many ways by smuggling British airmen back over the border, allowing radar stations to be built and giving them access to Donegal airspace).

Also, you say that everyone knew Hitler was an evil man etc... Well yes - to an extent. In 1939 nobody knew (outside of Germany) about his plans to exterminate six million Jews etc...

The whole idea of wanting to have big army etc is rubbish. In reality, only a few big world countries are like that. Look at Sweeden, Finland, Holland, Brazil, and hundreds more. Nobody has much of a problem with them. Why? Because they havent been a key nation involved in invasions, bombings etc...

If somebody were to look down upon Ireland because of the size of our Army, I'd ask them what war they fought in.

syklops · 13-01-2010 12:14PM

It is a bit embarassing that until recently the Czech republic had a larger navy than ireland.

The Czech republic is land locked.

davyjose · 13-01-2010 12:14PM

Bastard Germans don't even wear Green away jerseys anymore. :mad:

topper75 · 13-01-2010 12:15PM

Put the stance in context. The country at the time was -

no more than 2 decades old
in poor economic shape
bearing the living memory of an armed independence struggle
attempting to put the grievances of a nasty and divisive civil war to bed

So all credit to Hitler's nastiness, but correct decision for us at the time in hindsight. We were not a war machine by any stretch of the imagination approaching the mid 20th cent. Why supply our males as cannon fodder when we had already lost so many not long before?

brummytom · 13-01-2010 12:15PM

(As a complete outsider) : Well from 1939-1945, Ireland was still a very new state, and of course there was much domestic fighting at the time. Had conscription been introduced, the effects would have been disasterous for Ireland.

You had (and still have) an incredibly small population, it wouldn't take much for the whole of the male working population to have been erradicated/injured. This would have been devastating for a country that relied almost soley on farming - a job that really needed men. Even so, 200,000 Irish men and women still voluntarily served for the Allied Forces (my granddad served in India, I think)

To be quite honest, I didn't know you still had no army, that's surprised me. Personally, though I disagree with war, I'd say an army would still be a neccessity (who knows what could happen..).

Fukuyama · 13-01-2010 12:16PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

DeValera signing the book of condolences in the German Embassy after Hitler's death was the real embarrassment.

Or a sign of a ture diplomat not afraid to stand up against the US etc... and say 'yup we were neutral, and I'll behave in such a manner'.

So what, he signed the book. Not like he condoned all of Hitlers actions. It's politics - not personal.

Blazer · 13-01-2010 12:16PM

They can keep Kerry Katona though..

damn you Zohan..I posted this back on your post about "Tesco do deliveries" but you then removed it :mad:

Yep..Looking at the archives Dev was damned if he did and damned if he didn't..
Regardless...Ireland cannot afford to keep an army upto date with all the tech.
Would be a complete waste of money just for a few F16s and tanks when you would put it in comparison with other countries.
I think Neutrality is just another word for "we cannot afford to keep an army so we're neutral" basically.

who the fug · 13-01-2010 12:18PM

Are there any laws on the books about Irish Neutrality?

Smcgie · 13-01-2010 12:18PM

I wouldn't call it Neutrality, its more like we are easygoing and don't really give a sh1te

Fukuyama · 13-01-2010 12:19PM

brummytom wrote: »

To be quite honest, I didn't know you still had no army, that's surprised me. Personally, though I disagree with war, I'd say an army would still be a neccessity (who knows what could happen..).

We do have an army with over 10,000 soldiers. And an airforce and Navy. The thing is - we're neutral. Our soldiers are deployed abroad in Chad and Kosovo in PEACEKEEPING operations.

Nobody said we had no Army. Traditionally, Ireland holds having an armed military force closely. But traditionally, it's used for Defence. Not having men with grey hair and beer-guts who have lived out their lives, ordering those who haven't to horrible deaths because some people in flashy suits want some oil.

Xluna · 13-01-2010 12:22PM

Why should we be embarressed? Ireland just won independence and people expect us to give the WASP empire a helping hand because it was losing the war? People seem to think WW2 was a battle of good vs evil. The U.S. commited terrible war crimes when the nuked Japan,but they don't count right?:rolleyes:

AnonoBoy · 13-01-2010 12:23PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

Or a sign of a ture diplomat not afraid to stand up against the US etc... and say 'yup we were neutral, and I'll behave in such a manner'.

So what, he signed the book. Not like he condoned all of Hitlers actions. It's politics - not personal.

Standing up to the US? The US couldn't have given two sh*tes if he signed it or not.

After what Hitler had done and the fact that Dev had held German pilots in Ireland and released Allied pilots it was clear which side we were leaning towards even if we couldn't join the war. It was something which he shouldn't have done.

biko · 13-01-2010 12:23PM

Everybody knows the Irish are just drunken louts*

*not actually true. Saint Patrick's Battalion, led by Captain John Riley from Clifden, was a fighting unit that deserted the US army to fight against it on Mexico's side 1846.
Toward the end of the conflict, at the Battle of Churubsco, 83 San Patricios were captured, and 72 were court martialed. Of this number, 50 were sentenced to be hanged and 16 were flogged and branded on their cheeks with the letter "D" for deserter.

Mexico's general Santa Anna later said that if he would have had another Saint Patrick's Battalion he could have pushed the US back and won the war.

Fukuyama · 13-01-2010 12:24PM

Berkut wrote: »

Regardless...Ireland cannot afford to keep an army upto date with all the tech.
Would be a complete waste of money just for a few F16s and tanks when you would put it in comparison with other countries.
I think Neutrality is just another word for "we cannot afford to keep an army so we're neutral" basically.

The thing is though, we do have a modern army. Just a small one. We don;t have tanks because we prefer quick vehicles for ambushing and recon. That's the type of warfare that works best in terrain such as Ireland; loads of hills, laneways, towns, villages, farms, mountain passes. Tanks would be pretty much useless.

One of Irelands best defence tactics is to defent in traditional warfare for a few days/weeks then break up into small guerrilla units and ambush etc... with support from the public and to train public voluteers to keep a force going.

Ireland doesn't need F-16s etc... because nobody in Ireland would support invading countries like Iraq etc... what's the point? All we'd ever be is Americas bitch. I'd rather be a cute little nation that nobody really has a problem with than cannon fodder.

Lockstep · 13-01-2010 12:25PM

I'd say that Devalera's actions were more about a global statement.

EVeryone knew we had an extremely biased form of neutrality, I think he was trying to reinforce the fact that we were independant from Britain.

Time Magazine · 13-01-2010 12:25PM

Our neutrality isn't embarrassing, but our helplessness is.

brummytom · 13-01-2010 12:26PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

We do have an army with over 10,000 soldiers. And an airforce and Navy. The thing is - we're neutral. Our soldiers are deployed abroad in Chad and Kosovo in PEACEKEEPING operations.

Nobody said we had no Army. Traditionally, Ireland holds having an armed military force closely. But traditionally, it's used for Defence.

Oh right, sorry. As I said, I'm a complete outsider. I just took the line:

faceman wrote: »

Should we build an army

to mean that there isn't already one in existence. An incorrect presumption, apologies.

Not having men with grey hair and beer-guts who have lived out their lives, ordering those who haven't to horrible deaths because some people in flashy suits want some oil.

If you mean the British Army, I agree. The war in Iraq was/is illegal and immoral, I think most people realise that now (my family and I went on a protest in London in 2003).

As I thought you didn't have an army, my original reply (and suggestion of having an army) was for defence rather than attack. But you've already got that, so.. good.

Fukuyama · 13-01-2010 12:27PM

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Standing up to the US? The US couldn't have given two sh*tes if he signed it or not.

After what Hitler had done and the fact that Dev had held German pilots in Ireland and released Allied pilots it was clear which side we were leaning towards even if we couldn't join the war. It was something which he shouldn't have done.

I think you're forgetting how much pressure came from the US for Ireland to join up. Dev got huge support for digging in his heels. I'm not saying signing was RIGHT. Just saying from a purely textbook political standpoint it was spot on. Should he have done it? well that's a discussion for another thread IMO

podgemonster · 13-01-2010 12:27PM

While on a J1 I was constantly asked (more like reminded) 'Ireland werent in the WW2 were they?'

'Do you guys think Hitler would have stopped at England, he'd have gone after ye guys too, if it weren't for us!'

Thanks to Hollywood they think they saved the world!
Drove me mad! Americans dont understand nuetrality!

Off topic:
They were also Shocked that we didn't have an official independance. The conversation was with one Yank...
'4th of July is coming up, Do you guys have an independance day holiday'
'Eh, no kinda hard to find a specific date'
'What you dont hav a day celebrate your countries independance from the British'
'Ya we do, every f*cking day'

Xluna · 13-01-2010 12:27PM

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'd say that Devalera's actions were more about a global statement.

EVeryone knew we had an extremely biased form of neutrality, I think he was trying to reinforce the fact that we were independant from Britain.

Churchill offered him the north if Ireland would join Britain,but Dev refused as he thought Germany would win. Churchill taunted him after the battle of Britain though a letter.

bonerm · 13-01-2010 12:28PM

Yeah it's really embarrasing. I'd love to be one of those countries that despite having an army for "defence" always somehow seems to be fighting it's battles in other peoples backyards. Not to mention the welcome home after a campaign of blowing the shít of nations of little brown people with nothing but rocks (and sometimes shoes) to throw.

Fukuyama · 13-01-2010 12:30PM

brummytom wrote: »

If you mean the British Army, I agree. The war in Iraq was/is illegal and immoral, I think most people realise that now (my family and I went on a protest in London in 2003).

.

Well I wouldnt single out Britain but it's a fine example. All Ireland would ever be (due to population constrictions) would be another bullet in the gun which the US holds - like all the small NATO countries. Why should we worry about paying for a war that 99% of those who live in countries involved don't know about or care about?

War is hell

I'd rather spend my life shagging women, having a good time, travelling etc... rather than in a musty APC wondering when the next RPG is coming.

AnonoBoy · 13-01-2010 12:31PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

I think you're forgetting how much pressure came from the US for Ireland to join up. Dev got huge support for digging in his heels. I'm not saying signing was RIGHT. Just saying from a purely textbook political standpoint it was spot on. Should he have done it? well that's a discussion for another thread IMO

There was a lot of pressure from England to join too. You're right, he was making a political statement by signing the book but I think however our not joining was enough and signing the book was just too much.

jumpguy · 13-01-2010 12:32PM

Neutrality is not embarrassing IMO and not going into WW2 was probably one of the best decisions taken in Ireland. We'd have been wiped out, no doubt!

Benevolent neutrality is though.

Fukuyama · 13-01-2010 12:33PM

Xluna wrote: »

Churchill offered him the north if Ireland would join Britain,but Dev refused as he thought Germany would win. Churchill taunted him after the battle of Britain though a letter.

He didn't offer him the north. He offered to sit down with Unionist leaders and we all know how that story goes.

In Churchils V-Day speech he said how easy it would have been to invade IReland during the war for addes security. he then basically called the Irish pussies for not joining up.

Dev then made what is often called his finest speech about how one nation stood alone for 700 years against an oppressor, fought in foreign wars WITH the british and got nothing in return etc... He basically turned everything Chrushcill said right around 180 and came away looking clean

me_right_one · 13-01-2010 12:34PM

Dean0088 wrote: »

We do have an army with over 10,000 soldiers. And an airforce and Navy. The thing is - we're neutral. Our soldiers are deployed abroad in Chad and Kosovo in PEACEKEEPING operations.

Nobody said we had no Army. Traditionally, Ireland holds having an armed military force closely. But traditionally, it's used for Defence. Not having men with grey hair and beer-guts who have lived out their lives, ordering those who haven't to horrible deaths because some people in flashy suits want some oil.

+1. I cant believe somebody said they thought we had NO army! We have indeed! (Two in fact! One, ahem, undefeated unofficial army;), and) one small but deadly official army for "defence". The ranger wing are among the best in the world! I cant believe someone thought we had none!

Lockstep · 13-01-2010 12:35PM

Xluna wrote: »

Churchill offered him the north if Ireland would join Britain,but Dev refused as he thought Germany would win. Churchill taunted him after the battle of Britain though a letter.

That's not it at all.

DeValera refused as it would mean;
reduction in sovereignty
and the fact that the Unionists would be up in arms, it was a practical impossibility. Dev knew this and rightfully refused.

Is Irish Neutrality a bit, you know, embarrassing?

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