What Should Ireland Seek To Excel In?

Sand · 10-01-2010 09:29PM

Eh no, you have become too used to the property market I'm afraid. Something like shipbuilding uses a wide range of technologies from engines to materials to most of what an industrialised nation can produce. If the shipyards fail, you still have all that industrial infrastructure which is then turned to other purposes; this is why the industry was used by the likes of Korea, Japan and China to bootstrap their own infrastructure.

So you pour resources into building this shipbuilding infrastructure because private enterprises wont build because they dont see any use for it.

The industry falls apart - and it will, look at the countries you have listed....Wooops.

But thats okay, because you'll just give the infrastructure to private enterprise who didnt want or need it in the first place? If they cant make a profit out of your random collection of toys, that will be their fault? Right? And at the end of the day its not your money, its the taxpayers money youre wasting on pipedreams?

Thats the plan?

How about this: how about the state merely concentrates on supporting enterprise rather than trying to run that enterprise itself?

Now this is the fourth time I've explained it to you, is there any way it can be made clearer.

I am very clear on what you are proposing. The problem is that it is nonsense.

What philosophy is that? Where is that said or implied,

My description of the state-citizen relationship, that the state was an artificial creation built to serve the interests of its citizens was dismissed as dogmatic libertarianism by yourself. I think myself the idea of citizen>state is fairly moderate, not from where you are standing clearly.

So do you still think citizen>state is dogmatic libertarianism?

By the way, under dogmatic libertarianism, there is no state.

As for what was to blame, you can lay the blame squarely at the door of financial institutions lobbying to have regulation removed for decades, regulation that was put in place during the last depression to prevent andother great depression.

Nope, thats just the symptom. Belief in perfect information was the underlying cause. Your plans for state driven enterprise assumes perfect information too and is equally doomed.

Like I said, theres much to learn from the past decade...

Again, where did you see that? The state can provide direction, and it can work out very well, or not.

And thats why I dont see the state as a venture capital fund. You instead just reckon that if enough of our money is thrown at enough projects...well, one of them has got to work right? Very cavalier of you, when its not your money.

Forgive me If I am not reassured.

You're giving them to bail out failed companies right now.

Which I believe I am on record as disagreeing with fairly strongly. Your point sir? My money is being wasted now so I shouldnt worry about it being wasted in future?

And if your sample size remains one, thats all you will ever learn about the process.

Nothing to learn from it right? Next time its going to be different.

State policy that was originated by...

The state? Fianna Fail and the civil service?

If you don't want to respond to the question, yes or no, about whether we should disincentivise certain industries, thats up to yourself.

Why would we want to disincentivise certain industries? All we would ever want to do is disincentivise negative byproducts of industry - tax the negative byproduct, job done.

The state needs to provide a good enviroment for starting a business and running one.

I say again - would your dreams of state programmes have every considered a story like Taxback.com? Nope.

Instead you would have done nothing to assist that success story and instead poured taxpayer funds into white elephant shipyards: if we build it, they will come...and if they dont...well...someone will figure a use for it. Hopefully.

Great plan. Back it with your own money, not mine thanks.

OMD · 10-01-2010 10:32PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Something like shipbuilding uses a wide range of technologies from engines to materials to most of what an industrialised nation can produce. If the shipyards fail, you still have all that industrial infrastructure which is then turned to other purposes; this is why the industry was used by the likes of Korea, Japan and China to bootstrap their own infrastructure.

.

Exactly shipbuilding, and we can become as successful as the great shipbuilding powerhouses of Northern Ireland, Glasgow and Newcastle. Sounds great.

imme · 10-01-2010 10:50PM

OMD wrote: »

Exactly shipbuilding, and we can become as successful as the great shipbuilding powerhouses of Northern Ireland, Glasgow and Newcastle. Sounds great.

do you think? or are you being ironic:rolleyes:
have you or anyone got any more suggestions?

jmayo · 11-01-2010 12:45PM

wicklowmale wrote: »

This country has huge resources on the west coast especially, for wind farms, wave turbines. It doesn't take a geneis to work that out.

We also have huge quantities of land been farmed very poorly. How many empty fields do we drive past each day either going to work or travelling around ireland. it is a discrace and farmers should be encouraged to use there land more effeciantly,

Pharmacuticals and Services is also something ireland can provide.

Unfortunately we are an island and to an extent we are limited to what we can provide.

Ireland is a beautifull country and tourism is one of our main services that we excel at.

Unfortunately the present system doesn't encourage ppl to get out working, you are nearly better off living of the state than working

The system needs to change big time but also more needs to be done with what we already have, farming, wind farms etc.

Ehh the reason farmers can't farm some of their land is the EU.
This is all part of the big picture where farming, ever since WWII became very productive to the point in the late 80s where we had butter mountains, wine lakes, milk lakes, beef heaps, etc.
Then EU decided, along with WTO entities like US (who have huge agri grants as well), that they would stiffel output in Europe, so that rich ranchers in say Brazil could burn down rainforest and rear cattle at much cheaper prices.
Thus farmers in Europe are penalised for over production.
They are actively discouraged from full use of their land.
That is why you have land left idle.

All this is happening whilst people in lots of countries are malnurished or even starving.

BTW this is simplified view of things but still gist of argument.

On thread diorection:
I think people should recognise Amrhan Nua might be more of a politican than we give him/her credit.
Afterall everyone has gone off and started debating one small point in their proposal, shipbuilding, whilst ignoring much of the rest.
Not bad going on how to divert a debate.
And yes I helped :rolleyes:

BTW DF ?? you never replied to my little point about how lax financial regulation, as expected by Alan Greenspan, never worked where people's greed will win out and ultimately the institutions are put at risk.
IMHO thus you do need heavy hand of government, or rather state, regulation in some particular areas to guarantee the survival of the very free market system you would laud.

onq · 11-01-2010 12:53PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Another one that thinks ad hominems are what all the smart, ballsy guys are doing these days.

Oh, the irony...

ONQ.

irish_bob · 11-01-2010 01:21PM

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh the reason farmers can't farm some of their land is the EU.
This is all part of the big picture where farming, ever since WWII became very productive to the point in the late 80s where we had butter mountains, wine lakes, milk lakes, beef heaps, etc.
Then EU decided, along with WTO entities like US (who have huge agri grants as well), that they would stiffel output in Europe, so that rich ranchers in say Brazil could burn down rainforest and rear cattle at much cheaper prices.
Thus farmers in Europe are penalised for over production.
They are actively discouraged from full use of their land.
That is why you have land left idle.

All this is happening whilst people in lots of countries are malnurished or even starving.

BTW this is simplified view of things but still gist of argument.

On thread diorection:
I think people should recognise Amrhan Nua might be more of a politican than we give him/her credit.
Afterall everyone has gone off and started debating one small point in their proposal, shipbuilding, whilst ignoring much of the rest.
Not bad going on how to divert a debate.
And yes I helped :rolleyes:

BTW DF ?? you never replied to my little point about how lax financial regulation, as expected by Alan Greenspan, never worked where people's greed will win out and ultimately the institutions are put at risk.
IMHO thus you do need heavy hand of government, or rather state, regulation in some particular areas to guarantee the survival of the very free market system you would laud.

the CAP which was set up to protect european farmers is one the reasons farmers and people in general in the 3rd world are malnourished , european farmers are the most molly coddled and protected in the world

ei.sdraob · 11-01-2010 02:04PM

irish_bob wrote: »

the CAP which was set up to protect european farmers is one the reasons farmers and people in general in the 3rd world are malnourished , european farmers are the most molly coddled and protected in the world

actually there is another problem beside CAP

how to move the food to these areas (lets assume for a moment that the locals would actually have something to pay with for the product in order for some profit to be made)

the issue is lack of transport links (or safe routes), its very expensive to get food to back arse of nowhere in central africa

so once the local population exceeds the resources available locally (and thanks to climate change these are dwindling in some areas) they either move to cities (where incidentally its cheaper to deliver products to) or starve

lets say irish farmers grow some cheap food, how can they deliver it to remote places in lets say in africa and still make a profit to make it worthwhile their effort?

onq · 11-01-2010 02:20PM

jmayo wrote: »

<snip>
BTW DF ?? you never replied to my little point about how lax financial regulation, as expected by Alan Greenspan, never worked where people's greed will win out and ultimately the institutions are put at risk.
IMHO thus you do need heavy hand of government, or rather state, regulation in some particular areas to guarantee the survival of the very free market system you would laud.

You can learn from the example shown by Microsoft.
Competitors were denied a marketplace by unfair practices - Nescape.
Non-competitors with good products were simply assimilated - eg VMware.

Two sayings often quoted are
i) "the fittest survive" and "
ii) "whatever doesn't kill me makes me stronger".

Both are easily debunked

i) The fattest survive in the American experement.
ii) Even these will eventually succumb to the death of a thousand cuts.

"Big fish eat little fish" is the lesson of capitalism.

FWIW

ONQ.

ei.sdraob · 11-01-2010 02:26PM

onq wrote: »

"Big fish eat little fish" is the lesson of capitalism.

you missed the second part of the lesson

"until the big fish becomes so fat, the little fish eat it a peace at a time..."

as is happening now to the Microsoft as per your example

jmayo · 11-01-2010 06:52PM

irish_bob wrote: »

the CAP which was set up to protect european farmers is one the reasons farmers and people in general in the 3rd world are malnourished , european farmers are the most molly coddled and protected in the world

Ahh here we go with the old chestnut about how European, or rather EU, farmers are the reason people in the third world (especially Africa) are malnourished and starving.

It has nothing at all to do with fact they are killing each other through tribal warfare, e.g Zaire, Rwanda or they are being run by tin pot dictators such as Zimbabwe or Sierra Leone.

Actaully take Zimbabwe as briliant example.
It was one of the most productive areas of Africa, yet Mugabe and his clowns have turned it into country where people are as good as dying of famine.
Go figure how that is fault of EU farmers :rolleyes:

Oh and if you want to take country such as Ethiopia/Eritrea as example.
They have suffered from decades of war, over population and drought.
Ah but sure it is all the fault of the EU farmers.

Actaully US farmers are also molly coddled as you put it, so why not harp on about them rather than about Irish farmers.

fontinalis · 12-01-2010 07:23PM

jmayo wrote: »

Ahh here we go with the old chestnut about how European, or rather EU, farmers are the reason people in the third world (especially Africa) are malnourished and starving.

It has nothing at all to do with fact they are killing each other through tribal warfare, e.g Zaire, Rwanda or they are being run by tin pot dictators such as Zimbabwe or Sierra Leone.

Actaully take Zimbabwe as briliant example.
It was one of the most productive areas of Africa, yet Mugabe and his clowns have turned it into country where people are as good as dying of famine.
Go figure how that is fault of EU farmers :rolleyes:

Oh and if you want to take country such as Ethiopia/Eritrea as example.
They have suffered from decades of war, over population and drought.
Ah but sure it is all the fault of the EU farmers.

Actaully US farmers are also molly coddled as you put it, so why not harp on about them rather than about Irish farmers.

They are in their fructose syrup ass

Torakx · 13-01-2010 04:15AM

just a note since i am in this forum browsing.

i believe there are a couple billion/trillion euros worth of gas and oil around ireland and along the west coast.
i had recently suspected that might have been the reason for pushing lisbon on ireland so hard.if they are not already planning to rip this out of the ground we should probably do it first and spend it on this country instead of selling it to europe to line the pockets of politicians.
or am i really late and shell has beaten us to it?

fontinalis · 13-01-2010 05:45PM

Torakx wrote: »

just a note since i am in this forum browsing.

i believe there are a couple billion/trillion euros worth of gas and oil around ireland and along the west coast.
i had recently suspected that might have been the reason for pushing lisbon on ireland so hard.if they are not already planning to rip this out of the ground we should probably do it first and spend it on this country instead of selling it to europe to line the pockets of politicians.
or am i really late and shell has beaten us to it?

Blame Ray Burke for some of that.

jmayo · 13-01-2010 05:58PM

Torakx wrote: »

just a note since i am in this forum browsing.

i believe there are a couple billion/trillion euros worth of gas and oil around ireland and along the west coast.
i had recently suspected that might have been the reason for pushing lisbon on ireland so hard.if they are not already planning to rip this out of the ground we should probably do it first and spend it on this country instead of selling it to europe to line the pockets of politicians.
or am i really late and shell has beaten us to it?

Ehhh I would much rather a German, a Dane, a Finn or a Swede looked after how and who got the oil and gas reserves out of our ground than any member of ff.
Afterall that was the party who provided very good terms to oil and gas exploration companies thanks to it's Dubliin castle visitors, bertie ahern and ray burke.

fontinalis wrote: »

Blame Ray Burke for some of that.

Bingo.

onq · 15-01-2010 12:13PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you missed the second part of the lesson

"until the big fish becomes so fat, the little fish eat it a peace at a time..."

as is happening now to the Microsoft as per your example

Would you not agree that this was long after the big fish became VERY VERY FAT?

ONQ.

kuntboy · 16-01-2010 04:26AM

Set up a Western Union style company to facilitate all the remittances to pay the mortgages (I'm serious).

onq · 16-01-2010 12:15PM

kuntboy wrote: »

Set up a Western Union style company to facilitate all the remittances to pay the mortgages (I'm serious).

How were you able to register that name?

Do the mods not know its likely to be deeply offensive to some?

ONQ.

maninasia · 01-07-2010 05:18AM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

in agriculture we can really only do organic, but thats a specific niche for people with too much money to spend on food, most of the world lives on a dollar a day

the greens have killed any chance of GM crop research or growing which is a huge mistake, in a world where theres not enough food (and hence a market for cheap food, organic is anything but cheap) and population

Don't be so negative on organic marketing. There are 100s of millions of middle class in Asia with an interest in eating organic type food. The best idea is to market extracts of products under nutraceutical labels.

maninasia · 01-07-2010 05:39AM

Welease wrote: »

ok you seem to be ignoring my posts, and have a specific issue with me. Please Pm me, i wont ruin this thread.

Edit - Just saw your edit.. lol yeah i think its a horrendous idea.. but in fairness to you, i didnt bother commenting because i may be surprised and those with data can prove its an awesome idea So no issues..

My comments were to those who advocate no government involvement in their ideas for shipbuilding.. essentially who the *** would fund that folly.. which is pretty much your point also

Before anybody proposes an idea they should know what they are talking about...common sense right.

Shipbuilding..the worst idea I have EVER heard.

hinault · 01-07-2010 04:01PM

Ship building is a bad idea on several levels : if the people of Harland & Wolff and the people of the Clyde could not make a go of it, we certainly won't.

In fact low cost ship builders in Eastern Europe are even losing market share.

Also the shipping industry leave a huge carbon footprint, even bigger than the aviation industry, I read.
So it is a poor industry to seek to get involved with.

I definitely think that there is merit at looking at wind energy development.
Tidal energy development also.

I think water will in time become an evern more crucial resource.
How about capturing some of that rainfall and purifying it and selling it on to others for usage?

TonyMac · 01-07-2010 04:11PM

Organic food production and the smart economy.

The smart economy the benfits are obvious but what about stupid people. The option for them seems to be domestic service or unemployment.
Food is lousy jobs heaven. And if all you want out of life is a week in Lanzarote, 1 night in the pub, 2 bets a week, 2 weekends a year at Anfield and a new dress for the wife every so often food can fill those jobs.

It is also an area which lends itself to small scale entrepreneurship.

Sleepy · 01-07-2010 05:20PM

Sure the dole'd get you 2 weeks in Lanzarote

What Should Ireland Seek To Excel In?

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