What Should Ireland Seek To Excel In?

imme

What should Ireland seek to excel in. What sector of the economy should be encouraged/facilitated by government. Should the government be directly involved in facilitating economic development, outside of tax/employment policy.

Back to the question, what should Ireland seek to excel in? Agri/Financial/Manufacturing/Services/R&D/other

Climber

Back to the question, what should Ireland seek to excel in? Agri/Financial/Manufacturing/Services/R&D/other

I can only think of one: Energy

There should be a 'Business expansion scheme' type scheme for energy specific business initiatives. Creating our own energy instead of buying it in is likely to create a myriad of jobs.

Sleepy

Given the size of our coastline and the level of wind in this country I'm inclined to agree with Climber.

Despite our lack of nationwide broadband I'd still add IT to the list though. We've already attracted in some of the top tech companies in the world (mainly due to corporate tax rates I know) but I'm sure this can be expanded on.

ei.sdraob

selling houses

actually joking aside, anyone from outside of ireland who is foolish enough to spend lets say 400,000 on a house here should be allowed to stay on a long term visa or something

this way we shift the unsold stock and attract rich and foolish people

we have alot of houses now, but for obvious reasons we cant export them so we import rich people who might want to live in them

hmm do I sound like a FF TD yet :P

Amhran Nua

Pharma, Medical equipment, software are all areas where Ireland has proven itself more than equal to the task of being a global contender. With sufficient investment from the government in appropriate facilities, there are a lot of other areas we could excel in - for example, as an island, maritime science and shipbuilding, undersea resource exploitation and exploration, floating wind turbines, aquaculture etc.

ei.sdraob

all above are great ideas

Another idea which might work (Well works for UK and some of its "offshore" islands)

create an offshore company formation and banking system on some small islands we have like Aran,
im not sure how well it work being within EU, but UK has Guernsey, Channel Isles and Isle of Man

this would attract some serious money and the local government/people can benefit, all of these offshore Islands are very resource poor but the locals benefit greatly

this is just building up on our low corpo tax structure

of course some strict laws would be require so it doesnt backfire

but once again this works on some UK islands

jmayo

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Pharma, Medical equipment, software are all areas where Ireland has proven itself more than equal to the task of being a global contender. With sufficient investment from the government in appropriate facilities, there are a lot of other areas we could excel in - for example, as an island, maritime science and shipbuilding, undersea resource exploitation and exploration, floating wind turbines, aquaculture etc.

Shipbuilding :eek:
You have to be kidding.
We have never been a maritime nation, no history and not industrial enough.
Besides can't see us competing with the likes of Hyundai
This is why I have a huge problem with the dreams, sorry aspirations of your party.

Saying that I do agree on the aquaculture, on floating turbines, but actually for wave energy not wind.
There has been some work done on trials in Galway AFAIK.
You also forgot actual agriculture, where even back in the bad old days of the 60s the Irish Sugar Company was advanced in certain areas.

ei.sdraob

in agriculture we can really only do organic, but thats a specific niche for people with too much money to spend on food, most of the world lives on a dollar a day

the greens have killed any chance of GM crop research or growing which is a huge mistake, in a world where theres not enough food (and hence a market for cheap food, organic is anything but cheap) and population

Manach

My 2c, software products and services. We have the IT skills to create innovative products + the personal skills to sell them.

SLUSK

Subsidizing wind farms is financial suicide. Wind power is not competitive without massive subsidies and it is not viable as an energy source unless electricity prices go through the stratosphere.

Wind power is an intermittent form of electricity supplier since it doesn't work if there is no wind. Imagine what will happen during a cold winter with almost zero winds.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/04/08/wind-power-is-a-complete-disaster.aspx

ei.sdraob

Manach wrote: »

My 2c, software products and services. We have the IT skills to create innovative products + the personal skills to sell them.

to some extent, but this industry is being destroyed slowly but surely

* theres not enough Irish doing IT&C and engineering, and numbers keep falling (from direct experience)
* because of above companies have to hire and bring in people from abroad, this is till happening despite a recession
* the network infrastructure is terrible, and where the networks are in, they are for all intents and purposes not economical to get, for example my company pays ~20 times less in US and continent for quality bulk bandwidth than it would cost in Ireland
* electricity is expensive for a wide range of reasons


2010 will be the year im gonna move most of my IT related business out of Ireland, im getting rather sick of being shafted

SLUSK wrote: »

Subsidizing wind farms is financial suicide. Wind power is not competitive without massive subsidies and it is not viable as an energy source unless electricity prices go through the stratosphere.

Wind power is an intermittent form of electricity supplier since it doesn't work if there is no wind. Imagine what will happen during a cold winter with almost zero winds.
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fpcomment/archive/2009/04/08/wind-power-is-a-complete-disaster.aspx

i agree with you, currently for every MW of wind we have another MW of gas plant capacity has to be added in case the wind doesnt blow, this aint cheap

the only hope here is the Spirit of Ireland type project

/

jmayo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

all above are great ideas

Another idea which might work (Well works for UK and some of its "offshore" islands)

create an offshore company formation and banking system on some small islands we have like Aran,
im not sure how well it work being within EU, but UK has Guernsey, Channel Isles and Isle of Man

this would attract some serious money and the local government/people can benefit, all of these offshore Islands are very resource poor but the locals benefit greatly

this is just building up on our low corpo tax structure

of course some strict laws would be require so it doesnt backfire

but once again this works on some UK islands

Can't see that idea flying with EU.
Besides the last country to get away with this was Finland where the
Åland islands previous autonomous status was taken into consideration when Finland joined EU.
Simalarly with Uk and Isle of Man, Channel Islands.
They already had autonomy beofre joining.

Our IFSC has already cost the German taxpayers billions (see Hypo Real Estate bailout and causes), so can't see them wanting us to create even more tax havens where dodgy bankers can setup to play silly buggers.

If anything they want us to harmonise our taxes not go off and undercut them further.

ei.sdraob

jmayo wrote: »

Can't see that idea flying with EU.
Besides the last country to get away with this was Finland where the
Åland islands previous autonomous status was taken into consideration when Finland joined EU.
Simalarly with Uk and Isle of Man, Channel Islands.
They already had autonomy beofre joining.

Our IFSC has already cost the German taxpayers billions (see Hypo Real Estate bailout and causes), so can't see them wanting us to create even more tax havens where dodgy bankers can setup to play silly buggers.

If anything they want us to harmonise our taxes not go off and undercut them further.

yeh thats what i taught, tho if it can be pulled of it would bring in fair bit of money

or lowering corpo tax even lower

right now Cyprus has the lowest corpo rate in EU at 10%

something like 9% would make us look even nicer

Welease

Manach wrote: »

My 2c, software products and services. We have the IT skills to create innovative products + the personal skills to sell them.

We need to be a lot more specific when going down the software products and services route. Software for what? (:))
It costs practically nothing to setup a "software" business, and as a cost centre we are very expensive compared to countries like India and China, which have taken a lot of the software development from western countries. We are unlikely to be able to compete on a pure cost basis with them.

Training hundreds of developers will buy us nothing. Funding research and innovation to develop IP, ideas and eventually products is where we need to be focused (in possible some of the areas mentioned about like renewable energies).

Sleepy

Welease, software is IP too.

Much of the software development being outsourced to India has been brought back in-house at this stage. It's just too difficult to manage. The last product I worked on which was developed in an Irish company had, at the time I'd left been exported to both the UK and the US, bringing services income (in the form of consultancy and support) with it. We're already playing at a high level in this market but as ei.sdraob says, we're having to start importing talent to do so. Investment in training of developers, analysts etc. is still worthwhile here. If nothing else, subsidising the cost of sitting MCP exams and the like (which are examined in a FÁS facility in Athlone) for the unemployed would be beneficial.

Welease

Sleepy wrote: »

Welease, software is IP too.

Much of the software development being outsourced to India has been brought back in-house at this stage. It's just too difficult to manage. The last product I worked on which was developed in an Irish company had, at the time I'd left been exported to both the UK and the US, bringing services income (in the form of consultancy and support) with it. We're already playing at a high level in this market but as ei.sdraob says, we're having to start importing talent to do so. Investment in training of developers, analysts etc. is still worthwhile here. If nothing else, subsidising the cost of sitting MCP exams and the like (which are examined in a FÁS facility in Athlone) for the unemployed would be beneficial.

It is indeed

I suppose the location work will depend on companies, we still have the bulk of our work done in India/China (not subcontracted though).

I suppose my point is.. you need software to be doing something.. There is value in having people trained to do it in-house, but we cannot forget that we need something for them to do it for (if that makes sense).. Software is a means to creating a product or providing a service, not the end goal in itself..Having armies of available developers (without the innovations or products for them to work on) just puts us in direct competition with low cost economies for outsourced development.

To your example, you had a product/service and were a big player in that field, hence the need for developers. If the product/service was not created (in idea and funding) there would have been no need for developers..

I guess, i am just pointing out.. lets not lose sight of the fact we need to actually have to have something the world needs

simplistic

The reason why the government is in the **** house is because they have their creepy hands all over the economy. Relying on more thief and coercion at the hands of the government in the hope they can stimulate growth is like a doctor saying to remove a bullet from a patient you must push it in further so it eventually pops out the other side.

If they remove their socialist hands from the economy Ireland could breathe again but like any politician they will never be able to accept that taking their fingers out of the pie makes the pie taste better.

Amhran Nua

jmayo wrote: »

Shipbuilding :eek:
You have to be kidding.
We have never been a maritime nation, no history and not industrial enough.

Sorry, didn't the Titanic roll out of the Harland & Wolff shipyards in Belfast? Smart comments about what happened to that aside, looking at the short history of the state to decide what we are going to be doing in future is an exercise in futility.

jmayo wrote: »

Besides can't see us competing with the likes of Hyundai

You do realise that South Korea was effectively a third world country only a few decades ago.

jmayo wrote: »

This is why I have a huge problem with the dreams, sorry aspirations of your party.

Because we spot potential and aim to realise it?

jmayo wrote: »

Saying that I do agree on the aquaculture, on floating turbines, but actually for wave energy not wind.
There has been some work done on trials in Galway AFAIK.

The Norwegians have already made big inroads on floating wind turbines, not a design I would have gone for but thats what you get when you put oil rig engineers on the job. No planning permission, smoother stronger winds, adaptable to shallow or deep water, the list of advantages is endless, and its a young industry crying out for someone to take control of it.

SLUSK wrote: »

Subsidizing wind farms is financial suicide. Wind power is not competitive without massive subsidies and it is not viable as an energy source unless electricity prices go through the stratosphere.

Gas, coal and oil already have massive subsidies. If you remove them wind becomes a lot more competitive.

SLUSK wrote: »

Wind power is an intermittent form of electricity supplier since it doesn't work if there is no wind. Imagine what will happen during a cold winter with almost zero winds.

Circled number is % calm. As another poster pointed out, SoI looks like it has a handle on how to deal with internmittency issues, even if you don't want to go down the road of balancing the load by the simple expedient of the interconnector.

AARRRGH

Become the biggest producer of computer games. I really think this is possible.

It's now a huge industry (rivals the movie industry) and can be done anywhere.

It would provide many highly skilled jobs and probably lots of tax revenue if they games end up being exported via Ireland.

banquo

Not being crap?

Our broadband infrastructure sucks. Let's dump Eircom and let some foreign competition in. Free market helps consumers - anyone who doubts this can take one look at Eircom's monopoly. Only recently have Magnet and the likes taken a footing and shown what's possible when you don't have the clueless 'lads' running the shop.

Amhran Nua

AARRRGH wrote: »

Become the biggest producer of computer games. I really think this is possible.

It's now a huge industry (rivals the movie industry) and can be done anywhere.

It would provide many highly skilled jobs and probably lots of tax revenue if they games end up being exported via Ireland.

Good call, the hugely popular EVE online was set up in Iceland.

Sand

As Simplistic has noted, the government would be best advised to simply concentrate on eliminating barriers to entrepreunership, reducing costs of doing business in Ireland ( apparently Ireland is a relatively cheap place to file taxes in which is a good start, now they just need to work on things like power, commerical property prices/rent...oh wait, NAMA), representing Irelands interests internationally ( free trade and markets suit a tiny open economy like ours) and then just stepping aside and letting the creative, business minded people in Ireland figure out whats a good idea to start up.

Sure beats the hell out of hoping life long civil servants or publicans can come up with the creative business ideas themselves.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Amhran Nua

I'd have to disagree with both of the above, I'm afraid. Dogmatic libertarianism dictates that government involvement in anything is bad no matter what, often citing large failed projects, but legislation (tax based for example) to favour certain types of industry has historically been the boost that these industries need in order to grow, going all the way back to Song dynasty China.

It is not always the case that such fostering is required, far from it, but such things as initial capital requirements, entrenched international corporations as competition, and simply providing the initiative in growth areas are needed in a country like Ireland which has been largely directionless for so long.

imme

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Where does this assumption come from DF, how does it manifest? FÁS is in the business of training people for employment (re-training and up-skilling as well). Don't you think this is a good thing? Obviously the skills/courses that FÁS provide have changed over the years, to keep apace with the wider world. Do you see that FÁS is shaping the wider economy by providing up to the minute courses/ skills to the unemployed/job seekers?

Should government have any role in economic planning at all?
Why do you bring the unions into the mix?

Some real good ideas from others as well.:)

We might be able to send a concise report to Government of our recommendations.:)

imme

Sand wrote: »

As Simplistic has noted, the government would be best advised to simply concentrate on eliminating barriers to entrepreunership, reducing costs of doing business in Ireland ( apparently Ireland is a relatively cheap place to file taxes in which is a good start, now they just need to work on things like power, commerical property prices/rent...oh wait, NAMA), representing Irelands interests internationally ( free trade and markets suit a tiny open economy like ours) and then just stepping aside and letting the creative, business minded people in Ireland figure out whats a good idea to start up.

Sure beats the hell out of hoping life long civil servants or publicans can come up with the creative business ideas themselves.

How did these barriers come about in the first place, as you see them, what are they?
How does the government affect property prices, is this not entirely at variance with your overall post/position?

Do you have a big issue with civil servants? Why do you question their effectiveness in "creative business ideas". You say life long civil servants, not all civil servants are life long, a lot of civil servants had lives in the private sector or go on to a private sector involvement at another time.

A lot of good posts people, keep it up.:cool:

johnnyskeleton

imme wrote: »

What should Ireland seek to excel in. What sector of the economy should be encouraged/facilitated by government. Should the government be directly involved in facilitating economic development, outside of tax/employment policy.

Back to the question, what should Ireland seek to excel in? Agri/Financial/Manufacturing/Services/R&D/other

You know all the stuff that the multinational companies did here? We should learn to do these things better so that when the multinationals leave we can set up indigenous firms which can compete with the bigger international players.

The idea however that Ireland can decide to excel in a new sector - widgit manufacturing - and the government seeking to facilitate this with pre fabricated widgit plants, and talk abou the widgit IFSC and all the smart high paying jobs to be gained in the widgit economy when the government doesn't really understand/care what widgits are is a complete nonsense.

If they can magic it into existence by adopting a mere policy, then why don't we seek to excel in everything - cheap manufacturing, high tech, FIRE, trade, hell even natural resources?

Building up skills in a sector takes a long time and often will grow in a country with no government support but flounder in a country with massive government support. Sometimes, government support/tax breaks leads to corrupt, inefficient firms dominating that country.

Low costs, good infrastructre, high levels of education/skills (job specific skills; having a degree in commerce doesn't help you build and design widgits), stable conditions, low taxes, responsible government, transparent regulations - these are all things that allow successful businesses to flourish, and they are also things that we are somewhat lacking in in Ireland. These will still be a factor irrespect of what the government's focus is on.

But if you want a quick and tacky fix - let's legalise stem cell research - the yanks want it but can't do it themselves, they are happy to trade with us and their scientists are happy to live here for a while, and they will get tax incentives to do it. It would also be relatively simple (Fianna Fail don't do smart economies, if they did they'd probably be the simplest in the world) to change the constitution, declare to all the big medical research firms that we are open for business, snap up some commercial property at NAMA rates and lease it to them at a discount, and show them our nice little corporation tax and access to european markets. That's the way to go I reckon. Ditto for any other controverial but innovative area of science e.g. nuclear research, biological weapons, waste incineration, human experimentation, genetically modified cows etc.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

imme

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

(1) There are people who take chances, who use their skills/experience to set up in business (entrepreneurs) in Ireland, as it is.
The government has a role in the economy, there is also a role for entrepreneurs. I should hope people don't rely on Joe Duffy for snow clearance/gritting. It would be a mark of a sick society.
I don't know that all Irish people expect government to provide/find employment for them.

(2) Government bureaucracy ? I believe that FÁS is a government agency involved in training. I don't know that I'd characterise it as a bureaucracy. Maybe you've had direct involvement with them, I haven't.

(3) I was pointing out that FÁS changes with the time, ie they now provide computer courses including programming, courses dealing with biomass heating, whereas they didn't before. Therefore they change with the times to reflect the economic trends in general.

(4) No role for government in any area of the economy so? What about healthcare.

(5) The US car industry? Did the economic collapse of the US car industry not have anything to do with cheaper Far Eastern imports/competition.
The UK plant of Nissan cars allows for union membership of their workers. Their productivity seems fine.

Sand

@imme

How did these barriers come about in the first place, as you see them, what are they?

Questions so broad are often dealt with in books to be honest. Id note that Ireland view of bankrupts as some sort of criminal is not supportive of risk takers. Some thought here could be applied to allow people to fail and try again - if a entrepreneur secures backing from a bank then they must have agreed his scheme seemed viable to their own objective view.

Theres also a wider, official culture that seems hostile to free enterprise when its more than buzz words. Theres been very little in the way of serious de-regulation of protected industries in Ireland that hasnt been forced by EU competition laws: only example I can think of is the deregulation of taxis, and even then I amnt sure the Brennan didnt have to do so, and his reward was to get booted by Ahern in a reshuffle IIRC.

I could also highlight that by championing particular firms or industries, the government deliberately stacks the odds against competing interests. Look at their championing of the construction industry: fuelled by tax breaks, wealth, creativty, human captial (all those who trained up as solicitors or quantity surveyors...) flowed into a black hole, rather than going to where the wealth was being generated in real sustainable terms (i.e. not dependant on the incentives provided by tax breaks).

How does the government affect property prices, is this not entirely at variance with your overall post/position?

I have already said, NAMA. Many have commented that the banks and developers cant be allowed to go realise the losses on their joint ventures because then the developers property portfolios will be sold at "fire sale" prices (i.e. the market price).

By creating NAMA, to prevent this situation, the government is artificially propping up commerical property prices and rent. Thats only the most blatant interference of the government in commerical property prices. The past 7 or 8 years provides more examples....

That of course the NAMA policy flies in the face of their stated aims to recover competiveness and to a lesser degree reduce the cost of doing business in Ireland...well, its all weve come to expect from government in Ireland.

Do you have a big issue with civil servants? Why do you question their effectiveness in "creative business ideas". You say life long civil servants, not all civil servants are life long, a lot of civil servants had lives in the private sector or go on to a private sector involvement at another time.

I think you are overstating the openess of the civil service - senior positions are still reserved for internal staff only which limits the ability for a shake up of culture when office culture is a top-down affair in most organisations, and the ones open to external hires are fairly recent developments though I stand open to correction if you have any views on that.

As to the big issue with civil servants - If civil servants had the creativity and drive to have a good idea and execute it well, then they would have done so already. Theyre bureacrats. Theyre not encouraged to take risks, they dont invest their own money in their projects, they dont have any individual sense of responsibility for the success of their departments any more than the average office worker feels for the success of their company. I am not condemning such people, but to expect them to come up with a successful business? Come on. They should be smart enough to set up the stage and let the real actors get on with it whilst ensuring nobody gets out of control.

To return to the official culture problem, look at O Leary at Ryanair is an entrepreneur who took a struggling tiny Irish operator with only two planes and two routes and turned it into Europes biggest airline. Are the civil service beating a path to his door to ask his advice? Did official Ireland look to help or hinder Ryanair, in its struggle against the monopolies of Aer Lingus and British Airways? Maybe it should have only looked to provide an even playing ground.

@Amhran Nua

Dogmatic libertarianism dictates that government involvement in anything is bad no matter what, often citing large failed projects

I amnt dogmatic regarding this, I do believe the state has a role to play and if there wasnt a state there would have to be a creation of some complex mechanism of neutral refereeing between competing interests that might as well be called the state.

However, my view is that the state is an artificial creation, created by its citizens to better serve their own long term goals. Security, justice, protection of an individuals liberty, *neutral* correction of market failures and whatever basic safety net those citizens feel appropriate to extend to each other. I want my state concentrating on those priorities, rather than trying to run corner shops.

Adam Smith summed up very correctly all that is needed for a state to rise from poverty to wealth: peace, easy taxes, and a tolerable administration of justice. Thats really all theyve got to do, everything else is just details.

but legislation (tax based for example) to favour certain types of industry has historically been the boost that these industries need in order to grow, going all the way back to Song dynasty China.

See Irish construction industry and the destruction of wealth state meddling created there. Its not only those who believe in perfectly rational markets that need to learn from the past decade.

Taxation does have a role to play in incentivising or discouraging certain actions - carbon tax is a good example of how the government should use tax policy. But overall taxation policy is a fairly blunt intrument compared to the utter complexity of any functioning market and trying to pick and choose between company A and company B...theyd be best off playing the lotto if they are that certain they know the future.

With their own money preferably.

imme

Sand wrote: »

@imme



(1) Questions so broad are often dealt with in books to be honest. Id note that Ireland view of bankrupts as some sort of criminal is not supportive of risk takers. Some thought here could be applied to allow people to fail and try again - if a entrepreneur secures backing from a bank then they must have agreed his scheme seemed viable to their own objective view.

Theres also a wider, official culture that seems (2) hostile to free enterprise when its more than buzz words. Theres been very little in the way of serious de-regulation of protected industries in Ireland that hasnt been forced by EU competition laws: only example I can think of is the deregulation of taxis, and even then I amnt sure the Brennan didnt have to do so, and his reward was to get booted by Ahern in a reshuffle IIRC.

I could also highlight that by championing particular firms or industries, the government deliberately stacks the odds against competing interests. Look at their championing of the construction industry: fuelled by tax breaks, wealth, creativty, human captial (all those who trained up as solicitors or quantity surveyors...) flowed into a black hole, rather than going to where the wealth was being generated in real sustainable terms (i.e. not dependant on the incentives provided by tax breaks). (3)



I have already said, NAMA. Many have commented that the banks and developers cant be allowed to go realise the losses on their joint ventures because then the developers property portfolios will be sold at "fire sale" prices (i.e. the market price). (4)

By creating NAMA, to prevent this situation, the government is artificially propping up commerical property prices and rent. Thats only the most blatant interference of the government in commerical property prices. The past 7 or 8 years provides more examples...(4).

That of course the NAMA policy flies in the face of their stated aims to recover competiveness and to a lesser degree reduce the cost of doing business in Ireland...well, its all weve come to expect from government in Ireland.



I think you are overstating the openess of the civil service - (5) senior positions are still reserved for internal staff only which limits the ability for a shake up of culture when office culture is a top-down affair in most organisations, and the ones open to external hires are fairly recent developments though I stand open to correction if you have any views on that.

As to the big issue with civil servants - If civil servants had the creativity and drive to have a good idea and execute it well, then they would have done so already. (6) Theyre bureacrats. Theyre not encouraged to take risks, they dont invest their own money in their projects, they dont have any individual sense of responsibility for the success of their departments any more than the average office worker feels for the success of their company. I am not condemning such people, but to expect them to come up with a successful business? Come on. They should be smart enough to set up the stage and let the real actors get on with it whilst ensuring nobody gets out of control.

To return to the official culture problem, look at O Leary at Ryanair is an entrepreneur who took a struggling tiny Irish operator with only two planes and two routes and turned it into Europes biggest airline. Are the civil service beating a path to his door to ask his advice? Did official Ireland look to help or hinder Ryanair, in its struggle against the monopolies of Aer Lingus and British Airways? Maybe it should have only looked to provide an even playing ground.

(1) books are good for sure. :cool: Are there many books published annually on the Irish economy that deal specifically with barriers to economic development, either created by the state or otherwise.
I'm unsure that bankruptcy is a barrier to entrepreneurship.

(2) How do you see this manifested? Back to 'what are the barriers?'
The government allowed competition in the airline industry and in broadcasting, I can't recall if these moves were 'forced' on the by EU/EEC.

(3) the unsustainability of the bubble:rolleyes:, the government tried to extend the life of the golden goose, bubbles have happened before and will undoubtedly happen again.
The construction industry is a funny example to pick as an industry that was 'favoured' by the state. Who were they competing against. Now if you'd have picked say sugar cane against sugar beet. (Not possible on either count any more as we can;t grow sugar cane and no longer sugar beet).

(4) So NAMA shouldn't go ahead? What implications would this have for the banking sector. If to-be-NAMAised properties were sold for current market value, would there be buyers?
What are the other examples of government involvement in commerical property sector?

(5) positions in the civil service are adverised in the national press/www.publicjobs.ie

(6) What do you thing the IDA, InterTrade Ireland are there for?

Sand

Going to bed now so I'll just do the quick kills now and return on the others:

The government allowed competition in the airline industry and in broadcasting, I can't recall if these moves were 'forced' on the by EU/EEC.

Airlines I am quite sure was EU directives brought in around the early 90s. The Irish government by contrast actually introduced a bill to outlaw anyone offering a lower price than Aer Lingus on routes to the UK: fortunately this was defeated after a TD whose name I cant recall embarrassed the government and turned it into an issue.

It does reveal the traditional attitude of official Ireland to trying to pick champions though.

So NAMA shouldn't go ahead?

No.

If to-be-NAMAised properties were sold for current market value, would there be buyers?

At the current market value? Yes, pretty much by definition - the market price being however price has to fall before buyers emerge.

(5) positions in the civil service are adverised in the national press/www.publicjobs.ie

There is however a limit on external hire for senior positions, true? The last social partnership agreement loosened up some of the restrictions on external hires for a proportion of the higher grades, but the highest ranks still remain for internal promotions only.

(6) What do you thing the IDA, InterTrade Ireland are there for?

Not to pick winners, just to attract investment, any investment, anything that will provide jobs and tax revenues. The quangos themselves wouldnt have a breeze what dem foreigners are up to or what makes them tick, but they didnt have too - all they had to do was get them into Ireland. That in itself is not proof of entrepreneurship any more than primitives clearing a runway to encourage the great iron birds in the sky to land is evidence that they know how to fly, let alone build a plane.

Or to be a little more cynical: To be seen to be doing something? Hitting up Irish-Americans for charitable donations of investments? Jobs for the boys? Going out of our way to encourage foreign entrepreneurship whilst doing our utmost to protect the vested interests back home?

Look at this thread so far: theres a lot of ideas in it. You know what one of the most successful Irish start ups was recently? Taxback.com. Heard about them there on Newstalk a few weeks ago: A tax accountant, who lived abroad for a bit. He came home, had some back taxes he could claim back and he claimed them. His friends had some similar taxes reclaims owed so he did the paperwork for them...then he had the idea.

Hes now got a company of about 600 people (110 in Ireland), with offices all across Europe, doing the paperwork on reclaiming taxes for SMEs and individuals. Has anyone yet suggested anything like this as an idea state policy should champion with incentives? Not as far as I have seen. Why not? Because its not a political "big idea".

Its just a simple idea that works, but doesnt have the same appeal as something as satisfyingly ambitious and yet vague as the "smart" economy. Politicians and bureacrats want to build castles in the sky, announce big and bold policies that promote their own careers and interests. They themselves dont have a breeze. Smart thing in that case is to concentrate on your core roles* That is why the state should concentrate on its role and simply set the stage, leaving the entrepreneurship to real businessmen with good ideas. They are just better at it.

*which I should stress encourages *neutral* refereeing with an eye to systematic risk: the pride in the success of "Irish" banks and the supposed need to wear the Green Jersey to support our chosen champions probably contributed in no small way to the capture of the FR by the banking sector; the state regulator went native because it somehow convinced itself its job was to help the Irish banks succeed, not to regulate them. This is going to repeat again and again and again any time the state tries to pick a champion.

View

Sand wrote: »

Airlines I am quite sure was EU directives brought in around the early 90s.

If I remember correctly, it was an EU Regulation (not a Directive) that opened up the airline industry to competition. The Commissioner that introduced the Regulation in the mid-/late-80's was the then Commisioner for Competition, Peter Sutherland.

There were also EU Directives in relation to broadcasting at the time, altough I don't know how influential they were in relation to the liberalisation of radio in Ireland.

Permabear

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max 73

what should ireland excel in?

it's obvious - MAGIC......it's all smoke, mirrors and slight of hands (or should i say back handers....)

Amhran Nua

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The idea however that Ireland can decide to excel in a new sector - widgit manufacturing - and the government seeking to facilitate this with pre fabricated widgit plants, and talk abou the widgit IFSC and all the smart high paying jobs to be gained in the widgit economy when the government doesn't really understand/care what widgits are is a complete nonsense.

A couple of problems with your analysis - other countries have bootstrapped themselves into new sectors in the past, and the Pharmas etc own all their IP, and you can bet its leaving with them.

Sand wrote: »

However, my view is that the state is an artificial creation, created by its citizens to better serve their own long term goals. Security, justice, protection of an individuals liberty, *neutral* correction of market failures and whatever basic safety net those citizens feel appropriate to extend to each other. I want my state concentrating on those priorities, rather than trying to run corner shops.

Which is dogmatic libertarianism.

Sand wrote: »

Adam Smith summed up very correctly all that is needed for a state to rise from poverty to wealth: peace, easy taxes, and a tolerable administration of justice. Thats really all theyve got to do, everything else is just details.

Adam Smith also postulated free markets where all participants have perfect knowledge, and while his thoughts on the property market are still applicable today since the purpose of a house hasn't changed much in the intervening time, his free market meanderings are a little out of date.

Sand wrote: »

See Irish construction industry and the destruction of wealth state meddling created there. Its not only those who believe in perfectly rational markets that need to learn from the past decade.

See police forces, health care, street lights, garbage collections, water and roads for examples of macro projects that worked.

Sand wrote: »

Taxation does have a role to play in incentivising or discouraging certain actions - carbon tax is a good example of how the government should use tax policy. But overall taxation policy is a fairly blunt intrument compared to the utter complexity of any functioning market and trying to pick and choose between company A and company B...theyd be best off playing the lotto if they are that certain they know the future.

So all risk analysis is gambling? A somehwat jaded point of view, but you're entitled to it. As for taxation being a blunt instrument, its sharp enought to have kept the Irish economy afloat for years with its corporation rates. By ignoring the effects of state incentives and legislation you ignore the only real tool there is to direct the national economy, which is, I think anyone would agree, folly. Its flailing about without a direction that has landed us in the situation we are in.

Permabear

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Amhran Nua

donegalfella wrote: »

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Thats like saying your chances of surviving a car crash are better in a red coloured car than a green coloured car.

Are you not finished telling people social welfare should be abolished yet?

Amhran Nua

donegalfella wrote: »

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Exceedingly simple I would have said. For example how would your master plan apply to the ramifications of Nice vis-a-vis the injection-leakage model (neoclassical synthesis variety) from the middle of the last decade onwards?

And once again, we learn that the easiest way usually isn't the best way.

Permabear

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Amhran Nua

donegalfella wrote: »

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What you said was:

donegalfella wrote: »

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So you'd rather take private healthcare in Somalia say than public healthcare in say the Netherlands? Some are better than others, private or public. Likewise directly comparing Ireland and the US ignores all those other countries with healthcare systems.

And lest we forget, all private healthcare is uniformly bad if you have no money, which would make it what, a 0% survival rate?

Permabear

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Amhran Nua

donegalfella wrote: »

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Which has nothing to do with the question I asked you. In the category of questions not answered by the way, are you still telling people social welfare should be abolished?

ZYX

donegalfella wrote: »

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Based on what? I know of no evidence to back this up. Indeed your chances of avoiding cancer (ie early detection) and surviving cancer is higher in UK (almost totally government run)than Ireland.

In Ireland your chances of surviving cancer depends on location not public/private status.

Permabear

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Amhran Nua

donegalfella wrote: »

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Thats like saying what does ice cream taste like - it doesn't. Its a nonsensical statement. Which brings us neatly to your next position...

donegalfella wrote: »

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Okay then, abolishing social welfare completely and in all its forms, from unemployment assistance to child benefit to rent allowance to the medical card is the way forward according to donegalfella.

I think its worth keeping that in mind.

imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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(1) my TV viewing habits are my own business thank you very much!:D No, I didn't see it. Was the audience composed entirely of hostile welfare recipients as you call them? What is a hostile welfare recipient? Do the views of 1 industry rep and the reaction of a small audience reflect the wider economy, where entrepreneurs who want to and who can, do?

(2) It is true to say that there was great economic growth in the world economy during the Industrial Revolution. It was a great time with 10, 11 and 12 year old children going to work in mills and factories etc. The Ind Revolution for the most part didn't touch Ireland, as you know, it's also true to say that government for the most part stood back from this great economic expansion, it's also true to say that 10,11 and 12 year old children as well as adults slaved away in harsh conditions for meagre pay while the mill/factory/colliery owners became millionaires, well they did take the chance!
Are you advocating a return to the 18-19th centuries for Ireland, is that where our economic future lies. Should we be exporting coal, iron to the rest of the world?

(3) I think Irish people for the greater part understand the economy we have in this country and do not expect government to provide them with a job.

(4) You describe FÁS as a bureaucracy, I guess this is fair, but seem to be using in a negative context, casting them as overly bureaucratic. I could be wrong in this.

(5) IMO FÁS provides a wide range of computer related courses. Trades etc in the construction industry still need to be taught. Many of the people who went into construction during the boom were from other indutries so had no skills specific to construction. We will always need a skillled construction industry.

(6) His government involvement in healthcare dangerous?
If you're going to say that cancer is better treated in a private than oublic system you will have to provide proof, it's life and death, you cannot use supposition.

(7) your opinion.

Permabear

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imme

This thread is turning into the usual tit for tat thread that you get on Boards, for the most part. Maybe that's the nature of Boards, or these type of places in general.

Maybe this is my fault among others.

Anyone else got any ideas of What Ireland Should Seek To Excel In?

ZYX

donegalfella wrote: »

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Perhaps if you backed up your statements with some evidence it may be a help.

namenotavailablE

Re healthcare statistics: an excellent source of statistics is available at http://apps.who.int/whosis/data/Search.jsp?indicators=[Indicator].[HSR].Members

This database allows you to compare a range of statistics for chosen countries. It might be insightful/ helpful to run a query comparing various stats/ countries when debating the pros/cons of different countries healthcare systems.