What Should Ireland Seek To Excel In?

Sand · 08-01-2010 02:13AM

Going to bed now so I'll just do the quick kills now and return on the others:

The government allowed competition in the airline industry and in broadcasting, I can't recall if these moves were 'forced' on the by EU/EEC.

Airlines I am quite sure was EU directives brought in around the early 90s. The Irish government by contrast actually introduced a bill to outlaw anyone offering a lower price than Aer Lingus on routes to the UK: fortunately this was defeated after a TD whose name I cant recall embarrassed the government and turned it into an issue.

It does reveal the traditional attitude of official Ireland to trying to pick champions though.

So NAMA shouldn't go ahead?

No.

If to-be-NAMAised properties were sold for current market value, would there be buyers?

At the current market value? Yes, pretty much by definition - the market price being however price has to fall before buyers emerge.

(5) positions in the civil service are adverised in the national press/www.publicjobs.ie

There is however a limit on external hire for senior positions, true? The last social partnership agreement loosened up some of the restrictions on external hires for a proportion of the higher grades, but the highest ranks still remain for internal promotions only.

(6) What do you thing the IDA, InterTrade Ireland are there for?

Not to pick winners, just to attract investment, any investment, anything that will provide jobs and tax revenues. The quangos themselves wouldnt have a breeze what dem foreigners are up to or what makes them tick, but they didnt have too - all they had to do was get them into Ireland. That in itself is not proof of entrepreneurship any more than primitives clearing a runway to encourage the great iron birds in the sky to land is evidence that they know how to fly, let alone build a plane.

Or to be a little more cynical: To be seen to be doing something? Hitting up Irish-Americans for charitable donations of investments? Jobs for the boys? Going out of our way to encourage foreign entrepreneurship whilst doing our utmost to protect the vested interests back home?

Look at this thread so far: theres a lot of ideas in it. You know what one of the most successful Irish start ups was recently? Taxback.com. Heard about them there on Newstalk a few weeks ago: A tax accountant, who lived abroad for a bit. He came home, had some back taxes he could claim back and he claimed them. His friends had some similar taxes reclaims owed so he did the paperwork for them...then he had the idea.

Hes now got a company of about 600 people (110 in Ireland), with offices all across Europe, doing the paperwork on reclaiming taxes for SMEs and individuals. Has anyone yet suggested anything like this as an idea state policy should champion with incentives? Not as far as I have seen. Why not? Because its not a political "big idea".

Its just a simple idea that works, but doesnt have the same appeal as something as satisfyingly ambitious and yet vague as the "smart" economy. Politicians and bureacrats want to build castles in the sky, announce big and bold policies that promote their own careers and interests. They themselves dont have a breeze. Smart thing in that case is to concentrate on your core roles* That is why the state should concentrate on its role and simply set the stage, leaving the entrepreneurship to real businessmen with good ideas. They are just better at it.

*which I should stress encourages *neutral* refereeing with an eye to systematic risk: the pride in the success of "Irish" banks and the supposed need to wear the Green Jersey to support our chosen champions probably contributed in no small way to the capture of the FR by the banking sector; the state regulator went native because it somehow convinced itself its job was to help the Irish banks succeed, not to regulate them. This is going to repeat again and again and again any time the state tries to pick a champion.

View · 08-01-2010 02:36AM

Sand wrote: »

Airlines I am quite sure was EU directives brought in around the early 90s.

If I remember correctly, it was an EU Regulation (not a Directive) that opened up the airline industry to competition. The Commissioner that introduced the Regulation in the mid-/late-80's was the then Commisioner for Competition, Peter Sutherland.

There were also EU Directives in relation to broadcasting at the time, altough I don't know how influential they were in relation to the liberalisation of radio in Ireland.

Permabear · 08-01-2010 10:37AM

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max 73 · 08-01-2010 11:53AM

what should ireland excel in?

it's obvious - MAGIC......it's all smoke, mirrors and slight of hands (or should i say back handers....)

Amhran Nua · 08-01-2010 12:12PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The idea however that Ireland can decide to excel in a new sector - widgit manufacturing - and the government seeking to facilitate this with pre fabricated widgit plants, and talk abou the widgit IFSC and all the smart high paying jobs to be gained in the widgit economy when the government doesn't really understand/care what widgits are is a complete nonsense.

A couple of problems with your analysis - other countries have bootstrapped themselves into new sectors in the past, and the Pharmas etc own all their IP, and you can bet its leaving with them.

Sand wrote: »

However, my view is that the state is an artificial creation, created by its citizens to better serve their own long term goals. Security, justice, protection of an individuals liberty, *neutral* correction of market failures and whatever basic safety net those citizens feel appropriate to extend to each other. I want my state concentrating on those priorities, rather than trying to run corner shops.

Which is dogmatic libertarianism.

Sand wrote: »

Adam Smith summed up very correctly all that is needed for a state to rise from poverty to wealth: peace, easy taxes, and a tolerable administration of justice. Thats really all theyve got to do, everything else is just details.

Adam Smith also postulated free markets where all participants have perfect knowledge, and while his thoughts on the property market are still applicable today since the purpose of a house hasn't changed much in the intervening time, his free market meanderings are a little out of date.

Sand wrote: »

See Irish construction industry and the destruction of wealth state meddling created there. Its not only those who believe in perfectly rational markets that need to learn from the past decade.

See police forces, health care, street lights, garbage collections, water and roads for examples of macro projects that worked.

Sand wrote: »

Taxation does have a role to play in incentivising or discouraging certain actions - carbon tax is a good example of how the government should use tax policy. But overall taxation policy is a fairly blunt intrument compared to the utter complexity of any functioning market and trying to pick and choose between company A and company B...theyd be best off playing the lotto if they are that certain they know the future.

So all risk analysis is gambling? A somehwat jaded point of view, but you're entitled to it. As for taxation being a blunt instrument, its sharp enought to have kept the Irish economy afloat for years with its corporation rates. By ignoring the effects of state incentives and legislation you ignore the only real tool there is to direct the national economy, which is, I think anyone would agree, folly. Its flailing about without a direction that has landed us in the situation we are in.

Permabear · 08-01-2010 12:13PM

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Amhran Nua · 08-01-2010 12:14PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Thats like saying your chances of surviving a car crash are better in a red coloured car than a green coloured car.

Are you not finished telling people social welfare should be abolished yet?

Amhran Nua · 08-01-2010 12:17PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Exceedingly simple I would have said. For example how would your master plan apply to the ramifications of Nice vis-a-vis the injection-leakage model (neoclassical synthesis variety) from the middle of the last decade onwards?

And once again, we learn that the easiest way usually isn't the best way.

Permabear · 08-01-2010 12:31PM

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Amhran Nua · 08-01-2010 12:42PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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What you said was:

donegalfella wrote: »

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So you'd rather take private healthcare in Somalia say than public healthcare in say the Netherlands? Some are better than others, private or public. Likewise directly comparing Ireland and the US ignores all those other countries with healthcare systems.

And lest we forget, all private healthcare is uniformly bad if you have no money, which would make it what, a 0% survival rate?

Permabear · 08-01-2010 12:46PM

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Amhran Nua · 08-01-2010 12:49PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Which has nothing to do with the question I asked you. In the category of questions not answered by the way, are you still telling people social welfare should be abolished?

ZYX · 08-01-2010 12:51PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Based on what? I know of no evidence to back this up. Indeed your chances of avoiding cancer (ie early detection) and surviving cancer is higher in UK (almost totally government run)than Ireland.

In Ireland your chances of surviving cancer depends on location not public/private status.

Permabear · 08-01-2010 12:56PM

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Amhran Nua · 08-01-2010 01:00PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Thats like saying what does ice cream taste like - it doesn't. Its a nonsensical statement. Which brings us neatly to your next position...

donegalfella wrote: »

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Okay then, abolishing social welfare completely and in all its forms, from unemployment assistance to child benefit to rent allowance to the medical card is the way forward according to donegalfella.

I think its worth keeping that in mind.

imme · 08-01-2010 01:01PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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(1) my TV viewing habits are my own business thank you very much!:D No, I didn't see it. Was the audience composed entirely of hostile welfare recipients as you call them? What is a hostile welfare recipient? Do the views of 1 industry rep and the reaction of a small audience reflect the wider economy, where entrepreneurs who want to and who can, do?

(2) It is true to say that there was great economic growth in the world economy during the Industrial Revolution. It was a great time with 10, 11 and 12 year old children going to work in mills and factories etc. The Ind Revolution for the most part didn't touch Ireland, as you know, it's also true to say that government for the most part stood back from this great economic expansion, it's also true to say that 10,11 and 12 year old children as well as adults slaved away in harsh conditions for meagre pay while the mill/factory/colliery owners became millionaires, well they did take the chance!
Are you advocating a return to the 18-19th centuries for Ireland, is that where our economic future lies. Should we be exporting coal, iron to the rest of the world?

(3) I think Irish people for the greater part understand the economy we have in this country and do not expect government to provide them with a job.

(4) You describe FÁS as a bureaucracy, I guess this is fair, but seem to be using in a negative context, casting them as overly bureaucratic. I could be wrong in this.

(5) IMO FÁS provides a wide range of computer related courses. Trades etc in the construction industry still need to be taught. Many of the people who went into construction during the boom were from other indutries so had no skills specific to construction. We will always need a skillled construction industry.

(6) His government involvement in healthcare dangerous?

If you're going to say that cancer is better treated in a private than oublic system you will have to provide proof, it's life and death, you cannot use supposition.

(7) your opinion.

Permabear · 08-01-2010 01:04PM

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imme · 08-01-2010 01:05PM

This thread is turning into the usual tit for tat thread that you get on Boards, for the most part. Maybe that's the nature of Boards, or these type of places in general.

Maybe this is my fault among others.

Anyone else got any ideas of What Ireland Should Seek To Excel In?

ZYX · 08-01-2010 01:07PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Perhaps if you backed up your statements with some evidence it may be a help.

namenotavailablE · 08-01-2010 01:10PM

Re healthcare statistics: an excellent source of statistics is available at http://apps.who.int/whosis/data/Search.jsp?indicators=[Indicator].[HSR].Members

This database allows you to compare a range of statistics for chosen countries. It might be insightful/ helpful to run a query comparing various stats/ countries when debating the pros/cons of different countries healthcare systems.

imme · 08-01-2010 01:10PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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It might be nice if you stopped ascribing labels to everyone, what label are you going to give me?

ZYX · 08-01-2010 01:12PM

ZYX wrote: »

Perhaps if you backed up your statements with some evidence it may be a help.

Especially as the only country he quoted, USA spends more public money on health than any country in the world

Amhran Nua · 08-01-2010 01:13PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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When the socialists are calling you too right wing and the libertarians are calling you too socialist, you know you're doing something right.

imme wrote: »

Anyone else got any ideas of What Ireland Should Seek To Excel In?

Take a look at some of the target areas we would aim for here, about halfway down the page.

HashSlinging · 08-01-2010 01:15PM

Think Ireland should try and excel in renewable energies for export. We are surrounded by water, its fairly windy to me it just seems wasted! its a very simplistic approach but simplicity is genius.

I'm sure over the next decade wave and wind generators will become more efficient. While the gov are at it every house hold should be given a grant to have its own wind generator.. if every home was generating power through wind generation and giving to the power grid instead of taking we would have less reliance on fossil fuels.

Permabear · 08-01-2010 01:30PM

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Welease · 08-01-2010 01:40PM

HashSlinging wrote: »

Think Ireland should try and excel in renewable energies for export. We are surrounded by water, its fairly windy to me it just seems wasted! its a very simplistic approach but simplicity is genius.

I'm sure over the next decade wave and wind generators will become more efficient. While the gov are at it every house hold should be given a grant to have its own wind generator.. if every home was generating power through wind generation and giving to the power grid instead of taking we would have less reliance on fossil fuels.

Back to the original point.. Yes i think we should be looking into this area, but I would not limit it just to the export of energy. We should be designing and developing the next generation of devices. The markets for these is huge and the potential is increasing as the worlds supply of fossil fuels continues to be constrained.

The point was made earlier, that we don't always have great wind.. Exactly, and neither do other countries, so there is a huge market in developing much more efficient collection systems for wind, wave, solar etc. There is absolutely no reason they should not be developed and controlled from here.

We didn't stop developing the engine after the first design of the combustion engine.

imme · 08-01-2010 01:42PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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don't know that I can stomach V Brown at this time of the day, thanks!
ah!, feudalism. I remember it well, your point.
You referenced the Ind Revolution, it's more in our era than feudalism isn't it?

The government was throwing money in all directions during the Tiger Years, is the fault of FÁS for asking for the budget or the fault of government for acceding to the demand. Maybe another historical thread is called for? Where did my money go? Or, The Funding of FÁS during the Tiger Years.

FÁS provide a wide range of computing related courses, including programming and as you were so good to point out 'e-mailing'. There are some people in Ireland who aren't familiar to both. That's why FÁS provide the course, there's obviously a need for it.

If you're going to say chances of survival while receiving treatment in a private hospital in Ireland are better than receiving treatment in a public hospital are greater then you HAVE TO provide evidence. It's only fair/decent. Otherwise people might think you're making it up.;)

ANYWAY back to the question, What Should Ireland Seek To Excel In????

axer · 08-01-2010 01:51PM

imme wrote: »

ANYWAY back to the question, What Should Ireland Seek To Excel In????

We are going to have a hard time excelling in anything until wage costs come down (inc social welfare etc). It is the only way to bring down the cost of living.

Our best bet are well paid jobs like in higher end IT/software/R&D etc because we will not be able to bring our wage costs/cost of living down significantly to be able to compete globally in the likes of manufacturing etc. that requires low paid staff to be competitive.

namenotavailablE · 08-01-2010 01:53PM

These are some statistics taken from the WHO database.They refer to the data available for the most recent year in the timeframe 2005-2008.
There are MANY additional statistics available in the same database- the following are a few key metrics of interest:

Private expenditure on health as % of total expenditure on health:
US 55%
France 20%
Ireland 20%

Per capita expenditure on health at average exchange rate:
US $6,714
France $4,056
Ireland $3,888

Adult mortality between ages of 15-60 per 1000 population:
US 109
France 91
Ireland 72

Maternal mortality per 1000 live births:
US 11
France 8
Ireland 1

Infant mortality per 1000 live births:
US 7
France 4
Ireland 4

Life expectancy at birth- female:
US 80
France 84
Ireland 82

Life expectancy at birth- male:
US 75
France 77
Ireland 77

Based on the foregoing, it is clear that the US healthcare system is not achieving good results in certain areas, particularly in the context of the per capita spend on healthcare. The US may well be ahead in other areas and in those areas other countries should learn what the US is doing right.
A balance between public & private healthcare rather than the extremes of "government intervention = bad / private sector intervention = good" would seem a valid approach.

ZYX · 08-01-2010 02:11PM

namenotavailabl wrote: »

These are some statistics taken from the WHO database.They refer to the data available for the most recent year in the timeframe 2005-2008.
There are MANY additional statistics available in the same database- the following are a few key metrics of interest:

Private expenditure on health as % of total expenditure on health:
US 55%
France 20%
Ireland 20%

Per capita expenditure on health at average exchange rate:
US $6,714
France $4,056
Ireland $3,888

.

And as can be clearly seen from these figures the US government spends more public money per capita on health than either Ireland or France (or UK or any other country in the world).

What Should Ireland Seek To Excel In?

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