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Nationalism and the Irish Language

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Comments

  • #152
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #153
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »
    To whom? You're speaking English to me...

    tbf that's a nothing argument, this conversation is in English, and bannings would be had if anyone replied as Gaeilge, besides, it wouldn't be polite ;)


  • #154
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    For a given value of "impressive".

    You're going back, once again, to utility.

    If the stats are true, and I would be skeptical as I reckon the teaching of Irish is not up to scratch, especially at second level, then a large amount of people have had a positive academic experience from learning Irish.


  • #155
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Cliste wrote: »
    Come over to Teach na Gealt to flex the aul Gaeilge muscles.

    Nobody will force you to speak the language, but you will be facilitated to use it if you want to :)

    Thanks.. although if I really desired to speak the language I'd speak it to my family rather than english... We have the capability in both languages, but lets face it, we speak english in every other aspect of our lives in Ireland, so why bother switching to Irish? Just for the sake of it? Doesn't seem particularly practical..


  • #156
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Herbal Deity wrote: »
    For a given value of "impressive".

    You're going back, once again, to utility.

    If the stats are true, and I would be skeptical as I reckon the teaching of Irish is not up to scratch, especially at second level, then a large amount of people have had a positive academic experience from learning Irish.

    I don't really get this whole academic part of things.. what is the point of having Irish from a purely academic point of view? Might as well learn how to sew your "Irish" family name banner..


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  • #157
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Herbal Deity wrote: »
    For a given value of "impressive".
    In fairness, if those figures are accurate then they reflect badly on the last century of the Irish educational system, with regards to the Irish language - you don't make a subject obligatory, pump sizeable amounts of resources into it and cheer when you find that under 4% then speak it on a daily basis.

    Either way, I would not take those figures too seriously because of the issues I have highlighted earlier.
    You're going back, once again, to utility.
    I think you are confusing this with the question of whether the language itself offers utility. What donegalfella has pointed out is simply a point of utility in terms of resources versus results and I think this is important regardless of your position on the language simply because it points to a failure in how it has been promoted.

    This is what frustrates me so much about the "800 years of oppression" brigade; they are so caught up in the historical romanticism of pre-1916 Ireland that they refuse to learn from the mistakes of post-1916 Ireland.


  • #158
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #159
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    In fairness, if those figures are accurate then they reflect badly on the last century of the Irish educational system, with regards to the Irish language - you don't make a subject obligatory, pump sizeable amounts of resources into it and cheer when you find that under 4% then speak it on a daily basis.

    Either way, I would not take those figures too seriously because of the issues I have highlighted earlier.

    I think you are confusing this with the question of whether the language itself offers utility. What donegalfella has pointed out is simply a point of utility in terms of resources versus results and I think this is important regardless of your position on the language simply because it points to a failure in how it has been promoted.
    Fair points I guess.

    I think Irish has a justifiable place on the primary school curriculum, but equally I wouldn't oppose less time being spent on it than is currently.
    The Corinthian wrote:
    This is what frustrates me so much about the "800 years of oppression" brigade; they are so caught up in the historical romanticism of pre-1916 Ireland that they refuse to learn from the mistakes of post-1916 Ireland.
    Why must you assume that just because I support the Irish language, that I'm one of the "800 years" brigade?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    As I said before, were French or German taught in place of Irish in the same manner in which Irish is taught, you'd see a similar level of proficiency in those languages as you do in Irish now.

    I think you also overestimate the benefits of learning French or German.

    However, were it proposed that Irish would be replaced by extra maths and science classes, I might be persuadable.


  • #160
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thanks.. although if I really desired to speak the language I'd speak it to my family rather than english... We have the capability in both languages, but lets face it, we speak english in every other aspect of our lives in Ireland, so why bother switching to Irish? Just for the sake of it? Doesn't seem particularly practical..

    Why not as they say!? And just because you use it in every other aspect of your life doesn't mean everyone does.

    Anyway given that the question was about the state support of the Irish language being nationalistic or not I think it's drifted off topic under the weight of bigots from both sides.

    If you love the language use one of the Irish language forums more, if you don't, then good for you, searching Irish Language in boards will give you carbon copies of this very argument.


  • #161
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Herbal Deity wrote: »
    Why must you assume that just because I support the Irish language, that I'm one of the "800 years" brigade?
    In fairness, I don't think you are. I was speaking more of some of the other posters who have contributed in this thread who appear to be living in some sort of nationalist fantasy.


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  • #162
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Cliste wrote: »
    Why not as they say!? And just because you use it in every other aspect of your life doesn't mean everyone does.
    The live and let live argument only works if you're not looking for others to pay for your lifestyle choices, I'm afraid.


  • #163
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    The live and let live argument only works if you're not looking for others to pay for your lifestyle choices, I'm afraid.

    A thiarcais, go luath beidh mé mar aon le na lads aerach ag cosaint mo stíl mhaireachtála :D

    Ní aontaím go faighim íocaíocht as úsáid an teanga, ach aontaím go faigheann neart daoine airgead nach thuileann siad mar gheall ar an teanga. Ceapaim freisin gur fiú airgead a chuir chuig an Gaeilge, ní amháin mar gheall ar náisiúnachas agus bród faoin tír, ach freisin mar ní faigheann an Gaeilge tacaíocht ceart. Fós ní féidir liom déileáil leis an rialtas, nó Roinn ar bith go h-iomlán as Gaeilge. Tá sé ag athrú go mall, ach tá bóthair fada amach romhainn.

    Ar aon nós nílim ag iarraidh a thuile am a chur amú anseo, má tá suim agat i plé liom, pioc suas an foclóir ag feicfidh mé thú trasna i dTeach na Gealt!
    Jeez, I'll be joining the homosexuals in defending my lifestyle choices at this rate! :D

    I don't agree that I get paid for my use of the language, but I do admit that a lot of people get money they don't deserve because of the language. I believe that it is worth spending money on Irish not only for nationalism, and prode in the country but mainly because Irish doesn't get the support it deserves. You cannot yet deal with the Government/Departments 100% through Irish, things are changing slowely, but there's a long road ahead.

    Anyway I don't want to waste any more time here, if you want to discuss it further with me, pick up a dictionary and I'll see you in Teach na Gealt :)

    And before you start complaining (it has happened before to me) this is as direct a translation as I can do, and it's within the rules


  • #164
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    I dont get what all this history has to do with the price of tea in China. As Oscar Wilde said "No man is rich enough to buy back his past." Whatever happened or didn't, the programme isnt working. You have to accept a natural euthenasia for language, cultures, empires. Why spend so much money on it when their are schools that have no toilets?


  • #165
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Cliste wrote: »
    A thiarcais, go luath beidh mé mar aon le na lads aerach ag cosaint mo stíl mhaireachtála :D
    L'ultima volta che ho guardato non devo pagare per i loro stipendi.
    Ceapaim freisin gur fiú airgead a chuir chuig an Gaeilge, ní amháin mar gheall ar náisiúnachas agus bród faoin tír, ach freisin mar ní faigheann an Gaeilge tacaíocht ceart.
    Quello è un argomento circolare - "ha diritto di aiuto, perché ha diritto di aiuto" - non fa senso.
    Ar aon nós nílim ag iarraidh a thuile am a chur amú anseo, má tá suim agat i plé liom, pioc suas an foclóir ag feicfidh mé thú trasna i dTeach na Gealt!
    Che hai sprecato tempo qui è poco ma sicuro.
    And before you start complaining (it has happened before to me) this is as direct a translation as I can do, and it's within the rules
    If the conversation is already in a specific language, then respond to it in the same language. How does it feel when it is done to you?


  • #166
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #167
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,306 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I dont get what all this history has to do with the price of tea in China. As Oscar Wilde said "No man is rich enough to buy back his past." Whatever happened or didn't, the programme isnt working. You have to accept a natural euthenasia for language, cultures, empires. Why spend so much money on it when their are schools that have no toilets?
    +1. I agree on the history front. So what? Artifically revive a largely dead language just because it was artificially killed off in the first place? Over 100 years ago?

    We have a pretty ridiculous situation with this language in Ireland. You couldnt make it up. Imagine France decided back in the day that Basque was their national language(about the same percentage speak it as Irish though its a lot more vital in Basque areas). Spent billions on it's promotion. Insisted certain professions used it or you were barred entry. Insisted many higher educational facilities required it. Changed well known for generations place names into (oft invented) Basque names and made it a requirement all new housing estates names had to be in Basque. Propped up with French tax payers money Basque only media outlets. Insisted that every government missive tax returns etc had both Basque and French. Funded Basque schools and Basque lessons while other subjects and the schools within them suffered. Insisted it meant you were only truly French if you spoke the language. Then insisted the EU made it an official language and all documents had to be translated into it as well as French.

    Now imagine you fly to France on holiday. You figure "Right so, I better learn Basque" yet find outside of a tiny area and a tiny minority of speakers, no one has a bloody clue what you're saying. You would think the French utterly daft. At the very least you would be scratching your head. You truly couldn't make it up.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #168
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    And then there's the example of Hebrew where a completely dead language was revived very successfully.

    Is the problem with the amount of money spent on reviving Irish or the fact that it has been so unsuccessful?


  • #169
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    taconnol wrote: »
    And then there's the example of Hebrew where a completely dead language was revived very successfully.

    Is the problem with the amount of money spent on reviving Irish or the fact that it has been so unsuccessful?
    Oy gavult. Not the Jews again. I was waiting for someone to bring this up.


  • #170
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,306 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    taconnol wrote: »
    And then there's the example of Hebrew where a completely dead language was revived very successfully.
    Agreed and a somewhat invented evolved language too. The difference seems to have been the large scale uptake of the language. Its also a slightly different history going on. As well as nationalist notions Israel also faced huge influx of immigrant Jews with a lot of different backgrounds and cultures and languages. It made sense to have a lingua franca when reviving an also "dead" nation and culture. That wasnt the case in Ireland. English was the lingua franca for well over 100 yrs. Plus clearly the immigrants wanted this and spoke the language. It was a case of practicality. Not the case here. 99% of Irish citizens speak one language. It just happens to be english.

    Is the problem with the amount of money spent on reviving Irish or the fact that it has been so unsuccessful?
    A little from column a and a little from column b. Actually mostly from column b

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #171
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Agreed and a somewhat invented evolved language too. The difference seems to have been the large scale uptake of the language. Its also a slightly different history going on. As well as nationalist notions Israel also faced huge influx of immigrant Jews with a lot of different backgrounds and cultures and languages. It made sense to have a lingua franca when reviving an also "dead" nation and culture. That wasnt the case in Ireland. English was the lingua franca for well over 100 yrs. Plus clearly the immigrants wanted this and spoke the language. It was a case of practicality. Not the case here. 99% of Irish citizens speak one language. It just happens to be english.
    Very true. There was a totally different mentality around the revival of Hebrew.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    A little from column a and a little from column b. Actually mostly from column b
    Hah, I agree. I certainly can't argue that it has been money well spent.

    I speak a few European languages and wanted to love Irish but it was just taught so badly. I'm learning it by myself now but disappointingly, the best course book I have found is actually from the United States.


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  • #172
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Hebrew is attached to a religion, much like Latin was, so it is not tied to a land boundary. Jews all around the world learn Hebrew, like Catholics around the world once did.


  • #173
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Hebrew is attached to a religion, much like Latin was, so it is not tied to a land boundary. Jews all around the world learn Hebrew, like Catholics around the world once did.
    True, but Hebrew existed for a long time before the revival took place, right?

    Do you think that it being linked to the forging out of a new nation provided much of the impetus?


  • #174
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Hebrew was more successful for a number of reasons, however the principle one is that Jews around the World did not have any other competing common language. For the Irish there is - English.

    A better comparable example to Irish is Finnish. As a language this was revived around the same time as Irish, having been systematically suppressed by Swedish (and later Russian) and in decline. They even got their independence around the same time as us. Yet today is is spoken by a majority of Finns.


  • #175
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Hebrew was more successful for a number of reasons, however the principle one is that Jews around the World did not have any other competing common language. For the Irish there is - English.

    A better comparable example to Irish is Finnish. As a language this was revived around the same time as Irish, having been systematically suppressed by Swedish (and later Russian) and in decline. They even got their independence around the same time as us. Yet today is is spoken by a majority of Finns.
    The Finns dont have countless relatives abroad they have to lobby and fundraise from in English. They dont have a diaspora who could not give a toss about the language issue.


  • #176
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,375 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    taconnol wrote: »
    True, but Hebrew existed for a long time before the revival took place, right?

    Do you think that it being linked to the forging out of a new nation provided much of the impetus?
    Yes, like Wibbs said, they needed a common language, it was born of necessity.


  • #177
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    L'ultima volta che ho guardato non devo pagare per i loro stipendi.

    Quello è un argomento circolare - "ha diritto di aiuto, perché ha diritto di aiuto" - non fa senso.

    Che hai sprecato tempo qui è poco ma sicuro.

    If the conversation is already in a specific language, then respond to it in the same language. How does it feel when it is done to you?

    quite good really - 2010 and technology enable people to translate should they wish.

    i think cliste made a good point - A thiarcais, go luath beidh mé mar aon le na lads aerach ag cosaint mo stíl mhaireachtála

    most peoples points in this thread is just pointing out their limited worldview


  • #178
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    most peoples points in this thread is just pointing out their limited worldview

    Limited, in whose definition? And how are we to know that the person thinking the other has a limited world view doesn't in fact have a limited world view themselves?

    Enlarging on what you meant would be handy. Perhaps your Irish extract gave some inkling as to how you feel but if your not going to accommodate me by speaking in English, Im not going to accommodate you by going to bother of translating. English being, as you well know, the operating language of Humanities.


  • #179
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #180
    Herbal Deity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,397 ✭✭✭Herbal Deity


    As an aside, I felt it was a very bizarre. It seemed to imply that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. I don't see how homosexuality is a valid parallel with the current subject matter in the slightest.


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  • #181
    eleanoroosevelt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20 ✭eleanoroosevelt


    I posted on this thread around the start of it. I came back to it tonight and was pleasantly surprised by all the interesting debate and varied viewpoints expressed since I last posted.
    Some posters got very passionate about the issue at hand, this is really fantastic to see. My opinion remains the same as in my earlier post- Irish should'nt be compulsory because people rebel againest things forced upon them, like mass or the catholic church- How many people attend mass today? If you force people to do something enough, they'll grow to loathe it. (as illustrated in this forum)
    The way in which Irish was hammered into schoolchildren was the product of a young republic. After years of oppression we got freedom, we struggled to create a free state for ourselves, and so idealistic Ireland was born.
    We were a young country newly given independence and like a child growing up, we made mistakes along the way. We succumbed to the oppression of the church, we battered Irish into children. In gaining our freedom we then proceeded to rob freedom from our people. Our nation of roaring nationalists became a nation of supressed mice.
    Women were shipped off to hellholes of laundries, a new kind of fake nationalistic pride instilled in the people, and G.A.A. became suddenly a big part of being Irish- the organisation itself had only been established in the early 20th century. We were so used to being oppressed by England we knelt down before our new oppressor- the catholic church.
    Compulsory irish was part of this oppression. I love Irish but it shouldn't be forced on those who don't. I feel its an important part of our past, it will flourish if it wasn't taught in such a dreadful way, or made compulsory. If we took Irish out of schools it's popularity would soar because it wouldn't be forced on us.
    My main point is how wonderful it is that our nation of once supressed mice is finally speaking out about these issues. The heated debates on this thread, people being unashamedly vocal, this is refreshing to hear from a nation who once condoned clerical abuse and oppression and were silent for so long. Whatever the viewpoints of people on this thread it's just great to see people being vocal about these issues which are so very important for our future! Hopefully this is the Ireland of the future.


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