Tony McCoy v Ruby Walsh

Running Bing · 02-01-2010 05:40PM #1

I know nothing about horse racing but I find it interesting that in the debate created by RTE's greatest Irish sportsperson show Tony McCoys name seems to be cropping up a lot as somebody that should've been included and Ruby Walsh's not so much.

Found that interesting as I always thought Ruby was the greater of the two and Im constantly amazed by his achievements.

So am I being ignorant/misinformed or is McCoy generally seen as the greatest of the two amongst racing fans?

cson · 02-01-2010 11:05PM

Pat Taaffe ftw.

deccy15 · 02-01-2010 11:37PM

Running Bing wrote: »

I know nothing about horse racing but I find it interesting that in the debate created by RTE's greatest Irish sportsperson show Tony McCoys name seems to be cropping up a lot as somebody that should've been included and Ruby Walsh's not so much.

Found that interesting as I always thought Ruby was the greater of the two and Im constantly amazed by his achievements.

So am I being ignorant/misinformed or is McCoy generally seen as the greatest of the two amongst racing fans?

Ignore anyone who votes 4 ruby!!:P:P

How can a man who has ridden almost twice as many winners as anyone else in history not be regarded as the greatest?????

bryaner · 02-01-2010 11:47PM

But Mc Coy is British

Morgans · 03-01-2010 12:19AM

deccy15 wrote: »

Ignore anyone who votes 4 ruby!!:P:P

How can a man who has ridden almost twice as many winners as anyone else in history not be regarded as the greatest?????

Whatever the arguments are for McCoy being the greatest ever, and its clearly one that can be made, those who simply point to the numbers of winners are making a very poor argument.

I don't think anyone will argue that Richard Johnson is the second best jockey of all time yet he is miles ahead of the third winningmost jockey. Peter Niven had as many winners as John Francome. No one could say that he had half Francome's or Dunwoody's ability.

McCoy has been a force within racing for the guts of two decades. His achievements deserve all the recognition they do get and more, but whether he is a better jockey than Ruby is debatable.

corny · 03-01-2010 12:49PM

Not even worth debating. A.P all the way.

mike65 · 03-01-2010 12:52PM

the typical McCoy ride is of lesser quality than Walshes so he has to work harder for the win. If effort and return for that effort is a measure then McCoy wins every time.

fr wishy washy · 03-01-2010 12:53PM

If you had a fancied runner in the Gold Cup who would you have on board?-Ruby Walsh -all day-,AP is a great jockey but Walsh is different class.

mike65 · 03-01-2010 12:59PM

Yeah but if had a 'maybe baby' in a grade 3/4 at Hexham who would you want on board?

Morgans · 03-01-2010 01:17PM

Very few would debate that McCoy is the best rider of poor horses ever. It doesnt mean that he is a better jockey than Ruby. Belting a horse around Hexham or one of the gaffes doesnt make the jockey the best. Roddi Greene or Jamie Moore would rank highly if that was the case.

There is also a view that McCoy was too hard on horses and while he might carry Liberman over the line in a champion bumper, the horse might never forget it and never want to run again. Back in the Pipe days, every second horse needed all the aids and all McCoy's driving to make them go forward. I dont think he is nearly as hard any more.

The criteria where McCoy is the greatest jockey are consistency, will to win, durability, fitness and then there is his jockeyship skills. I dont think his jockeyship skills are as good as some other jockeys riding today (only a few), but in the other elements he is clearly superior.

To me he is the Roy Keane of the sport, while others could be compared to Messi. When you are admiring McCoy you are admiring his will to win and determination, not so much his skills.

Colonel Sanders · 03-01-2010 01:41PM

I think Ruby is by far the better horse man but it has to be McCoy for me

How often has McCoy carried a horse over the line, how many of his wins were on horses that no other jockey would have won by? <snip>

Morgans · 03-01-2010 02:10PM

Yeah. The non-triers is one that all jockeys have though, pretending they dont know what is going on is ridiculous. But its hardly like M Pipe and JJ O'Neill are angels when it comes to each and every horse trying for its life.

On the carried over the line stuff. I do think its a little overplayed. McCoy is very strong in a finish, but I personally think its 90% the horse that wants it. When a horse wants it and responds to McCoy, McCoy gets all the credit. I've seen as many races where McCoy is upsides at the last and loses in a driving finish as he wins. When he wins though, its all about McCoy. When he loses, its never about the winning jockey.

There was a gambled on favourite of Gary Moore's that won at Fontwell before christmas ridden by his son Joshua Moore. Never on the bridle. Watching it in the bookies during lunch, and some lad says coming down to the last that "McCoy never loses when he is in the lead at the last" Well, the amateur never stopped shoving and despite being 3l behind McCoy, got up.

Now, McCoy cant win every race he rides in, and this is only one instance, but had McCoy been riding the horse, it would have been lauded as one of the rides of the season.

Link to race

I remember Robbie Colgan doing something similar at Navan and getting little or no credit for it.

Rio 2016 · 03-01-2010 04:37PM

The answer to the question will never ever be conclusive.

There is no doubt that McCoy is better on a lazzy horse who needs there minds to be made up for them. Similarly McCoy is able to ride small tracks better than anyone else.

Ruby on the other hand is the coolest customer when the pressure of a big mount rests on his shoulders and would also be the man who you would want on board a horse who needs to be nursed home.

They are too of the finest national hunt jockeys that the sport has ever seen but I would have to side with McCoy for the simple fact that his record in photo finishes with Ruby speaks for itself.

Does anyone remember Edredon Bleau v fadalko, and Iris's Gift v Ad Hoc.

fr wishy washy · 03-01-2010 07:21PM

Rio 2016 wrote: »

The answer to the question will never ever be conclusive.

There is no doubt that McCoy is better on a lazzy horse who needs there minds to be made up for them. Similarly McCoy is able to ride small tracks better than anyone else.

Ruby on the other hand is the coolest customer when the pressure of a big mount rests on his shoulders and would also be the man who you would want on board a horse who needs to be nursed home.

They are too of the finest national hunt jockeys that the sport has ever seen but I would have to side with McCoy for the simple fact that his record in photos with Ruby speaks for itself.

Does anyone remember Edredon Bleau v fadalko, and Iris's Gift v Ad Hoc.

Largely agree with the above until the end as I'm sure you could find photo finishes where the boot was on the other foot.

They are both outstanding in their fields,and along with Norman Williamson:cool: are my top jocks of all time.

Whyno · 04-01-2010 01:13AM

bryaner wrote: »

But Mc Coy is British

Twat..

Both are top class jockeys and both have totally different styles. I think its impossible to decide whos best and well all anyone can do is have an opinion.
This thread has been done before and will and always will have an INCONCLUSIVE ANSWER....

convert · 04-01-2010 01:17PM

Attack the post, not the poster.

Running Bing · 04-01-2010 09:17PM

So I'm getting the feeling its like comparing apples to oranges and both are top class in different ways which is fair enough (some very interesting stuff though).

How would they stack up on a global all time level....would they be amongst the greatest jockeys of all time of any nationality?

Morgans · 04-01-2010 10:36PM

Given that NH is essentially a preserve of these islands, nationality wouldnt really count, but I think both would be pretty safely within the top ten of all time. Despite its long history, NH has really become professional in the modern sense within the last 40 years.

bryaner · 04-01-2010 10:51PM

Whyno wrote: »

Twat..

Both are top class jockeys and both have totally different styles. I think its impossible to decide whos best and well all anyone can do is have an opinion.
This thread has been done before and will and always will have an INCONCLUSIVE ANSWER...

Wow i always thought Antrim was part of northern Ireland guess im wrong

podsieboy · 04-01-2010 10:56PM

mccoy can get the best out of the bad horses just look at the races he wins that he shouldnt win e.g Witchita lineman in cheltenham last year beaten a circut out and still won wat a legend of the saddle

Johner · 05-01-2010 12:25AM

bryaner wrote: »

Wow i always thought Antrim was part of northern Ireland guess im wrong

You said he is British. Britain is made up of England,Scotland and Wales.

convert · 05-01-2010 12:28AM

Let's keep posts on topic, please

evil_seed · 05-01-2010 01:12PM

Has Christy Moore written a song about AP? No. Therefore Ruby is the greatest.

I joke, I joke.

redorblack · 05-01-2010 11:36PM

Paul Townend would ride more winners than McCoy if he got the choice of the best horses in Mullins and Nicholls yards. <snip>

fr wishy washy · 06-01-2010 03:06PM

redorblack wrote: »

. Anybody with eyes connected to some sort of brain voted McCoy.

Are you fishing?,I wouldn't be so dismissive of the members that post here.Mc Coy has his flaws and my brain is intact and working fine.

redorblack · 06-01-2010 03:28PM

No, Its just my opinion, fair enough to say Ruby was a better amateur than his father was, but you cant compare Ruby to Ap. Sure you can quote statistics because Walsh does get quality horses in great quantity. Ap needs to get out of Jonjos I think. Whoever is buying for Jp has a lot to answer for.

fr wishy washy · 06-01-2010 05:06PM

redorblack wrote: »

No, Its just my opinion, fair enough to say Ruby was a better amateur than his father was, but you cant compare Ruby to Ap. Sure you can quote statistics because Walsh does get quality horses in great quantity. Ap needs to get out of Jonjos I think. Whoever is buying for Jp has a lot to answer for.

I'd say Ruby is a good bit better than his dad ever was :rolleyes:and is in fact one of the finest exponents of race riding we've ever seen and if you can't see that well I give up.

redorblack · 06-01-2010 07:30PM

Lets agree to disagree. Think he works hard alright, he's had to, doesn't have the natural ability or any of the style or excellant hands for example the Carberry's were blessed with, rides lots of winners from lots of good runners, hes a bit like the Dunnes stores of race riding, nothing too fancy but value for money.

Morgans · 06-01-2010 07:35PM

redorblack wrote: »

Lets agree to disagree. Think he works hard alright, he's had to, doesn't have the natural ability or any of the style or excellant hands for example the Carberry's were blessed with, rides lots of winners from lots of good runners, hes a bit like the Dunnes stores of race riding, nothing too fancy but value for money.

That analogy made me giggle a bit, but I dont think Dunnes stores could ever be classed as the best at anything.

Its funny how many people automatically say McCoy is the best even scoff at those who dont think so, but then say he doesnt have the ability of some other jockeys. McCoy isnt that far behind them or anything and has probably done most with the ability he was given. He is an astounding example to any young jockey.

RichieLawlor · 06-01-2010 07:53PM

redorblack wrote: »

Paul Townend would ride more winners than McCoy if he got the choice of the best horses in Mullins and Nicholls yards. Anybody with eyes connected to some sort of brain voted McCoy.

tbh i think Townend is a bit overrated. People talk like hes the second coming. A lot of young jockeys could be the same given his firepower. Im not knocking him, he is a wonderful talent but hes not there yet

redorblack · 06-01-2010 10:32PM

RichieLawlor wrote: »

tbh i think Townend is a bit overrated. People talk like hes the second coming. A lot of young jockeys could be the same given his firepower. Im not knocking him, he is a wonderful talent but hes not there yet

That was why I mentioned Paul Townend, a lot of other jockeys could do exactly the same as Ruby if given the same rides.

Tony McCoy v Ruby Walsh

Who is the greatest Irish jockey of all time? 45 votes

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