Tony McCoy v Ruby Walsh

Running Bing

I know nothing about horse racing but I find it interesting that in the debate created by RTE's greatest Irish sportsperson show Tony McCoys name seems to be cropping up a lot as somebody that should've been included and Ruby Walsh's not so much.

Found that interesting as I always thought Ruby was the greater of the two and Im constantly amazed by his achievements.

So am I being ignorant/misinformed or is McCoy generally seen as the greatest of the two amongst racing fans?

cson

Pat Taaffe ftw.

deccy15

Running Bing wrote: »

I know nothing about horse racing but I find it interesting that in the debate created by RTE's greatest Irish sportsperson show Tony McCoys name seems to be cropping up a lot as somebody that should've been included and Ruby Walsh's not so much.

Found that interesting as I always thought Ruby was the greater of the two and Im constantly amazed by his achievements.

So am I being ignorant/misinformed or is McCoy generally seen as the greatest of the two amongst racing fans?

Ignore anyone who votes 4 ruby!!:P:P

How can a man who has ridden almost twice as many winners as anyone else in history not be regarded as the greatest?????

bryaner

But Mc Coy is British

Morgans

deccy15 wrote: »

Ignore anyone who votes 4 ruby!!:P:P

How can a man who has ridden almost twice as many winners as anyone else in history not be regarded as the greatest?????

Whatever the arguments are for McCoy being the greatest ever, and its clearly one that can be made, those who simply point to the numbers of winners are making a very poor argument.

I don't think anyone will argue that Richard Johnson is the second best jockey of all time yet he is miles ahead of the third winningmost jockey. Peter Niven had as many winners as John Francome. No one could say that he had half Francome's or Dunwoody's ability.

McCoy has been a force within racing for the guts of two decades. His achievements deserve all the recognition they do get and more, but whether he is a better jockey than Ruby is debatable.

corny

Not even worth debating. A.P all the way.

mike65

the typical McCoy ride is of lesser quality than Walshes so he has to work harder for the win. If effort and return for that effort is a measure then McCoy wins every time.

fr wishy washy

If you had a fancied runner in the Gold Cup who would you have on board?-Ruby Walsh -all day-,AP is a great jockey but Walsh is different class.

mike65

Yeah but if had a 'maybe baby' in a grade 3/4 at Hexham who would you want on board?

Morgans

Very few would debate that McCoy is the best rider of poor horses ever. It doesnt mean that he is a better jockey than Ruby. Belting a horse around Hexham or one of the gaffes doesnt make the jockey the best. Roddi Greene or Jamie Moore would rank highly if that was the case.

There is also a view that McCoy was too hard on horses and while he might carry Liberman over the line in a champion bumper, the horse might never forget it and never want to run again. Back in the Pipe days, every second horse needed all the aids and all McCoy's driving to make them go forward. I dont think he is nearly as hard any more.

The criteria where McCoy is the greatest jockey are consistency, will to win, durability, fitness and then there is his jockeyship skills. I dont think his jockeyship skills are as good as some other jockeys riding today (only a few), but in the other elements he is clearly superior.

To me he is the Roy Keane of the sport, while others could be compared to Messi. When you are admiring McCoy you are admiring his will to win and determination, not so much his skills.

Colonel Sanders

I think Ruby is by far the better horse man but it has to be McCoy for me

How often has McCoy carried a horse over the line, how many of his wins were on horses that no other jockey would have won by? <snip>

Morgans

Yeah. The non-triers is one that all jockeys have though, pretending they dont know what is going on is ridiculous. But its hardly like M Pipe and JJ O'Neill are angels when it comes to each and every horse trying for its life.

On the carried over the line stuff. I do think its a little overplayed. McCoy is very strong in a finish, but I personally think its 90% the horse that wants it. When a horse wants it and responds to McCoy, McCoy gets all the credit. I've seen as many races where McCoy is upsides at the last and loses in a driving finish as he wins. When he wins though, its all about McCoy. When he loses, its never about the winning jockey.

There was a gambled on favourite of Gary Moore's that won at Fontwell before christmas ridden by his son Joshua Moore. Never on the bridle. Watching it in the bookies during lunch, and some lad says coming down to the last that "McCoy never loses when he is in the lead at the last" Well, the amateur never stopped shoving and despite being 3l behind McCoy, got up.

Now, McCoy cant win every race he rides in, and this is only one instance, but had McCoy been riding the horse, it would have been lauded as one of the rides of the season.

Link to race

I remember Robbie Colgan doing something similar at Navan and getting little or no credit for it.

Rio 2016

The answer to the question will never ever be conclusive.

There is no doubt that McCoy is better on a lazzy horse who needs there minds to be made up for them. Similarly McCoy is able to ride small tracks better than anyone else.

Ruby on the other hand is the coolest customer when the pressure of a big mount rests on his shoulders and would also be the man who you would want on board a horse who needs to be nursed home.

They are too of the finest national hunt jockeys that the sport has ever seen but I would have to side with McCoy for the simple fact that his record in photo finishes with Ruby speaks for itself.

Does anyone remember Edredon Bleau v fadalko, and Iris's Gift v Ad Hoc.

fr wishy washy

Rio 2016 wrote: »

The answer to the question will never ever be conclusive.

There is no doubt that McCoy is better on a lazzy horse who needs there minds to be made up for them. Similarly McCoy is able to ride small tracks better than anyone else.

Ruby on the other hand is the coolest customer when the pressure of a big mount rests on his shoulders and would also be the man who you would want on board a horse who needs to be nursed home.

They are too of the finest national hunt jockeys that the sport has ever seen but I would have to side with McCoy for the simple fact that his record in photos with Ruby speaks for itself.

Does anyone remember Edredon Bleau v fadalko, and Iris's Gift v Ad Hoc.

Largely agree with the above until the end as I'm sure you could find photo finishes where the boot was on the other foot.

They are both outstanding in their fields,and along with Norman Williamson:cool: are my top jocks of all time.

Whyno

bryaner wrote: »

But Mc Coy is British

Twat..

Both are top class jockeys and both have totally different styles. I think its impossible to decide whos best and well all anyone can do is have an opinion.
This thread has been done before and will and always will have an INCONCLUSIVE ANSWER....

convert

Attack the post, not the poster.

Running Bing

So I'm getting the feeling its like comparing apples to oranges and both are top class in different ways which is fair enough (some very interesting stuff though).

How would they stack up on a global all time level....would they be amongst the greatest jockeys of all time of any nationality?

Morgans

Given that NH is essentially a preserve of these islands, nationality wouldnt really count, but I think both would be pretty safely within the top ten of all time. Despite its long history, NH has really become professional in the modern sense within the last 40 years.

bryaner

Whyno wrote: »

Twat..

Both are top class jockeys and both have totally different styles. I think its impossible to decide whos best and well all anyone can do is have an opinion.
This thread has been done before and will and always will have an INCONCLUSIVE ANSWER...

Wow i always thought Antrim was part of northern Ireland guess im wrong

podsieboy

mccoy can get the best out of the bad horses just look at the races he wins that he shouldnt win e.g Witchita lineman in cheltenham last year beaten a circut out and still won wat a legend of the saddle

Johner

bryaner wrote: »

Wow i always thought Antrim was part of northern Ireland guess im wrong

You said he is British. Britain is made up of England,Scotland and Wales.

convert

Let's keep posts on topic, please

evil_seed

Has Christy Moore written a song about AP? No. Therefore Ruby is the greatest.

I joke, I joke.

redorblack

Paul Townend would ride more winners than McCoy if he got the choice of the best horses in Mullins and Nicholls yards. <snip>

fr wishy washy

redorblack wrote: »

. Anybody with eyes connected to some sort of brain voted McCoy.

Are you fishing?,I wouldn't be so dismissive of the members that post here.Mc Coy has his flaws and my brain is intact and working fine.

redorblack

No, Its just my opinion, fair enough to say Ruby was a better amateur than his father was, but you cant compare Ruby to Ap. Sure you can quote statistics because Walsh does get quality horses in great quantity. Ap needs to get out of Jonjos I think. Whoever is buying for Jp has a lot to answer for.

fr wishy washy

redorblack wrote: »

No, Its just my opinion, fair enough to say Ruby was a better amateur than his father was, but you cant compare Ruby to Ap. Sure you can quote statistics because Walsh does get quality horses in great quantity. Ap needs to get out of Jonjos I think. Whoever is buying for Jp has a lot to answer for.

I'd say Ruby is a good bit better than his dad ever was :rolleyes:and is in fact one of the finest exponents of race riding we've ever seen and if you can't see that well I give up.

redorblack

Lets agree to disagree. Think he works hard alright, he's had to, doesn't have the natural ability or any of the style or excellant hands for example the Carberry's were blessed with, rides lots of winners from lots of good runners, hes a bit like the Dunnes stores of race riding, nothing too fancy but value for money.

Morgans

redorblack wrote: »

Lets agree to disagree. Think he works hard alright, he's had to, doesn't have the natural ability or any of the style or excellant hands for example the Carberry's were blessed with, rides lots of winners from lots of good runners, hes a bit like the Dunnes stores of race riding, nothing too fancy but value for money.

That analogy made me giggle a bit, but I dont think Dunnes stores could ever be classed as the best at anything.

Its funny how many people automatically say McCoy is the best even scoff at those who dont think so, but then say he doesnt have the ability of some other jockeys. McCoy isnt that far behind them or anything and has probably done most with the ability he was given. He is an astounding example to any young jockey.

RichieLawlor

redorblack wrote: »

Paul Townend would ride more winners than McCoy if he got the choice of the best horses in Mullins and Nicholls yards. Anybody with eyes connected to some sort of brain voted McCoy.

tbh i think Townend is a bit overrated. People talk like hes the second coming. A lot of young jockeys could be the same given his firepower. Im not knocking him, he is a wonderful talent but hes not there yet

redorblack

RichieLawlor wrote: »

tbh i think Townend is a bit overrated. People talk like hes the second coming. A lot of young jockeys could be the same given his firepower. Im not knocking him, he is a wonderful talent but hes not there yet

That was why I mentioned Paul Townend, a lot of other jockeys could do exactly the same as Ruby if given the same rides.

Morgans

Yeah. There is definitely a grain of truth in that. Geraghty has been transformed by the dose of confidence that Henderson's winners has given him. Jockeys dont lose many races that they should win, most will ride the percentage call race, but every so often the jockey's skill will win the race. Its about consistency over time.

Not sure why Townend has been specified, but one thing is for sure. Willie Mullins with Townend riding didnt miss Ruby last year nearly as much as Nicholls did who had Sam Thomas replacing him.

Those at the top of the game generally deserve their position.

convert

Ok guys, please remember to attack the post, not the poster. Next person who does this will be banned. Final warning.

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

Yeah. There is definitely a grain of truth in that. Geraghty has been transformed by the dose of confidence that Henderson's winners has given him. Jockeys dont lose many races that they should win, most will ride the percentage call race, but every so often the jockey's skill will win the race. Its about consistency over time.

Not sure why Townend has been specified, but one thing is for sure. Willie Mullins with Townend riding didnt miss Ruby last year nearly as much as Nicholls did who had Sam Thomas replacing him.

Those at the top of the game generally deserve their position.

Sam was horribly unlucky last year, he proved the year before that he is quality, its unfair to totally blame him. He made Big Bucks what he is today;)

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Sam was horribly unlucky last year, he proved the year before that he is quality, its unfair to totally blame him. He made Big Bucks what he is today;)

Unlucky enough to be jocked off Master Minded in the Tingle Creek, and it looks like he wont be back on board Denman in the Gold Cup. When the opportunities appear, you have to take them.

Knowing what we know now about Big Bucks, what price would he be in that Hennessey off those weights? Sam falling off him maybe did make up Nicholls' mind to put him hurdling.

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

Unlucky enough to be jocked off Master Minded in the Tingle Creek, and it looks like he wont be back on board Denman in the Gold Cup. When the opportunities appear, you have to take them.

Knowing what we know now about Big Bucks, what price would he be in that Hennessey off those weights? Sam falling off him maybe did make up Nicholls' mind to put him hurdling.

Knowing what we know about BB i wouldnt back him with your money to win a hennessy

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Knowing what we know about BB i wouldnt back him with your money to win a hennessy

Why would this be?

Off 150, he would be a 4/7 shot. Would be a question of Ruby not falling off him, like Sam.

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

Why would this be?

Off 150, he would be a 4/7 shot. Would be a question of Ruby not falling off him, like Sam.

in Rubys own words, he doesnt like fences. Nicholls also said this. You wont see BB over fences again imo.

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

in Rubys own words, he doesnt like fences. Nicholls also said this. You wont see BB over fences again imo.

I cant see any reason why he should be put back over fences. But it doesnt mean that he wouldnt be amazingly well handicapped if they persevered. Its strange, I cant think of another horse that Nicholls kept hurdling. But if Denman carried 11-12 to beat him off 10-00 in a Hennessy it would dwarf all his other achievements.

redorblack

I thought Diamond Harry could lower Big Bucks colors so it cost me to not question again BB, as the king of the stayers, no reason to put him back chasing.

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

I cant see any reason why he should be put back over fences. But it doesnt mean that he wouldnt be amazingly well handicapped if they persevered. Its strange, I cant think of another horse that Nicholls kept hurdling. But if Denman carried 11-12 to beat him off 10-00 in a Hennessy it would dwarf all his other achievements.

They interviewed him after the long walk and he said chasing wasnt on the agenda. He also said they bought him for chasing but he didnt take to it

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

They interviewed him after the long walk and he said chasing wasnt on the agenda. He also said they bought him for chasing but he didnt take to it

Yes. Again, I know this. Im asking what if? It deserves a new thread really, but if he was in any other stable, maybe a greater effort would be made. He really is made for chasing and there are very few that Nicholls doesnt develop into chasers.

Whyno

Anyone catch the Stewart interview on ATR earlier today. No plans for chasing in the future but they are planning an assault on the big summer hurdles in france after his successful defence of the world hurdle

tablets

AP is the best imo by a long way,ruby's a great jockey as well but i think if AP was on horses of equal ability to those of ruby or any other top jock he would win 9 out of 10 races,he will never be the most stylish but he'll always be the greatest!

Morgans

I think the very best would get to the top ok, but Ruby definitely had doors open for him. You still have to be good enough to take them. Joe Tizzard was once the preferred choice for the Nicholls yard. He failed despite having the opportunities. Sometimes the nepotism isnt always bad. Tommy Carberry has sired three of the best jockeys riding these days. He must have been giving them great advise when they were younger.

I think you aren't far wrong about Ruby's personality, other anecdotes that I've heard back up you impressions. Not that I would jump to conclusions on that.

fr wishy washy

Ruby's personality doesn't come into this argument imho,on ability to get a horse settled & jumping in a race he has no peers.I can't fault him in a finish either.The reason he rides so many good horses is because of his ability-simple as.Some Irish trainers have him on standby if available in the Grade 1's eg Paul Nolan.

fr wishy washy

fr wishy washy wrote: »

Ruby's personality doesn't come into this argument imho,on ability to get a horse settled & jumping in a race he has no peers.I can't fault him in a finish either.The reason he rides so many good horses is because of his ability-simple as.Some Irish trainers have him on standby if available in the Grade 1's eg Paul Nolan.

Of course the personality doesn't come into it, McCoy is better than Ruby overall though The reason he rides so many good horses has more to do with the dominance of Nicholls for the last few years really.

joconnor59

good horses make good jockeys if you getting the chances and doors are opened for you
you have a better chance of reaching the top its unfair to compair mccoy to ruby ..but in the last 20yrs mcoy has to be the best the winners he has rode he has done it all he has nothing to prove..alot of rubys winners are armchair rides.. there is alot of other jocks out there never got the chance to prove how good they were.. doors never opened for them its very unfair to compare jocks as each have a different style and hunger to win.. but the best they has been in the last 50 years nh jockeys are martin moloney pat taffee and tony mccoy..for determination and horsemanship...

UrbanSea

Morgans wrote: »

I think the very best would get to the top ok, but Ruby definitely had doors open for him. You still have to be good enough to take them. Joe Tizzard was once the preferred choice for the Nicholls yard. He failed despite having the opportunities. Sometimes the nepotism isnt always bad. Tommy Carberry has sired three of the best jockeys riding these days. He must have been giving them great advise when they were younger.

I think you aren't far wrong about Ruby's personality, other anecdotes that I've heard back up you impressions. Not that I would jump to conclusions on that.

Tommy is to stand at Coolmore's NH stud at the end of this year alongside Yeats and Vinnie Roe.
I can never answer this question. Whoever said AP needs to get out of John Joe's is right. How much money must JP be losing?