since 2002 State has paid out €1bn to Traveller projects (mod warning post 207)

population · 04-01-2010 01:51AM

Regardless of whether the money went to the travellers or got swallowed up through beaurocracy is irrelevant. The fact remains that huge funds were set aside from the tax take to subsidise a lifestyle that is detrimental to both settled communities and indeed to the travellers themselves.

AlekSmart · 04-01-2010 02:51AM

Its perhaps a wee bit insensitive to some,but here goes anyway.

...Does anybody consider the Sunday World front page (03/01/10) re Rathkeale and it`s Christmas visitors is in any way relevant to the debate ?

jimmycrackcorm · 04-01-2010 03:25AM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Its perhaps a wee bit insensitive to some,but here goes anyway.

...Does anybody consider the Sunday World front page (03/01/10) re Rathkeale and it`s Christmas visitors is in any way relevant to the debate ?

Nope - they're English. Getting a free HSE clinic is a bummer though when it's clear thay are not the poor.

jimmycrackcorm · 04-01-2010 03:31AM

murphaph wrote: »

<awaits do-gooder responses to justify this sort of money>. It's high time it was made attractive to be a middle class middle income earner in Ireland. As for travellers, well, when you opt out of society (that's what you'd all call it if I as a middle class joe soap decided to quit my job and live in a caravan, often on land I don't own nor have any right to be on) then I think society should let you do your own thing, sans support.

The germans have an interesting verb-noun usage. When I alight a train, bus etc. the verb is aussteigen. A person who opts out of society is called an Aussteiger. If people don't want to be part of society by conforming to basic rules such as respect for the property of others etc. then why should society as a whole support such people? Not all travellers fall into this category, some work and don't dump their sh!t all over the place but the ones that do should be cut loose by society.

Travelers didn't opt out - they didn't start by living normal house bound people and then move out into caravans. They were born into the life they have.

Not trying to justify anything, but if you are going to make a point then at least try to be correct.

SLUSK · 04-01-2010 03:54AM

The lifestyle some travellers have is really strange, during my time in Dublin I have seen horses in some gardens and horses in roundabouts. Why should taxpayers subsidize that kind of lifestyle?

04-01-2010 04:28AM

cavedave wrote: »

and remember Irish people for years were inbreeding probably at a rate of about 20%.

I doubt it. I seem to recall that special permission was required even for third cousins to marry.

brianthebard · 04-01-2010 06:07AM

gnxx wrote: »

It should be stated that the figure is what the government departments stated they spent on traveller related projects when questioned by the UN.

The money wasn't given directly to members of the travelling community to spend to cushions and throws for their caravans. More likely, it was wasted by various government departments on reports and consultant fees.

Welease wrote: »

Its a sensationalist report which highlights nothing more than the usual wastage within the PS and government.. yet in this particular case everyone wants to blame the travellers.

Agree with both of you, its neither the traveller community nor the traveller focus groups which have called for these sums but it is those groups that are being blamed for this situation.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I agree. There appears to be gaping double standards, at play.

Yes if a community were from abroad it would be considered ethnophobic but since travellers are from Ireland its ok to be disgustingly discriminatory towards the traveller community as a whole.

SLUSK · 04-01-2010 06:10AM

brianthebard wrote: »

Agree with both of you, its neither the traveller community nor the traveller focus groups which have called for these sums but it is those groups that are being blamed for this situation.

Yes if a community were from abroad it would be considered ethnophobic but since travellers are from Ireland its ok to be disgustingly discriminatory towards the traveller community as a whole.

It can't be the actions of a lot of these so called travellers that cause this attitude towards travellers could it? In the news you always read about traveller riots and feuds. Go on youtube and look up king of the tinkers. That's all I need to know about these people.

cavedave · 04-01-2010 10:16AM

Sand

My, what a wonderful leap in logic and reasoning. Now, sorry, what?

Sorry I was tarring you with the sentiments expressed in this post

maxximus

A similar problem existed in Canada some years ago where compulsory abortion and sterilisation was enforced by the authorities when an indigenous tribe was inbreeding and populating extensively , imagine that happening here.

994

I doubt it. I seem to recall that special permission was required even for third cousins to marry.

Historically Ireland has had high inbreeding rates historically. It is a small island and for years you married people living within about 5 miles of you usually less.

Surely travellers require the same special permission?

Welease · 04-01-2010 10:31AM

Why do people keep saying that travellers "opt-out"?

Opt-out from what?

The extreme levels unemployment are generally accepted as a result of descrimination/education. So what do they opt-out from?

Unemployed people/Single Mum's in the country get access to social housing.. Yet, people in this thread are amazed the same is being offered to unemployed travellers. That is descrimination.

Specialist additional education programs are offered to special needs, adults, religious schools, foreign speaking immegrants etc in this country. Yet, people in this thread are complaining about the same being offered to travellers. That is descriminiation.

People complain about them living in caravans. but then complain when the council spend money on housing for them...

Lets put it this way, how does an unemployed traveller afford to purchase land without government assistance, and if you feel it is possible then surely the same case can be made for every other unemployed/welfare person in this state.

So in essence is every welfare receipient in this country an opt-out sponger?

Welease · 04-01-2010 10:41AM

SLUSK wrote: »

It can't be the actions of a lot of these so called travellers that cause this attitude towards travellers could it? In the news you always read about traveller riots and feuds. Go on youtube and look up king of the tinkers. That's all I need to know about these people.

Actually 99% of the time I see the news it's a white non-traveller gang which are murdering people.. Are you trying to blame all the shootings in Dublin and Limerick on travellers? Check out youtube and look up Limerick Gangs.

Can we now stop all welfare benefits being given to white Irish non traveller people now?

Taxipete29 · 04-01-2010 11:39AM

SLUSK wrote: »

It can't be the actions of a lot of these so called travellers that cause this attitude towards travellers could it? In the news you always read about traveller riots and feuds. Go on youtube and look up king of the tinkers. That's all I need to know about these people.

In the news you also read about drug dealers from Drimnagh, Crumlin, Tallaght, Finglas, Inner city, Limierick etc killing each other, killing innocent people. Are we to tar everyone from those areas with the same brush??.

Bare-knuckle fighting affects settled people in what way exactly?? I dont agree with it, but at the end of the day its 2 consenting adults participating in a fight. Its not a free-for-all. Its not a riot. Its a fight between 2 men who agree to take part.

I have to say, for someone who advocates anarchy and removal of Govts. I would of thought that people who live their lives outside the system would be right up your alley??

SLUSK · 04-01-2010 12:08PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

In the news you also read about drug dealers from Drimnagh, Crumlin, Tallaght, Finglas, Inner city, Limierick etc killing each other, killing innocent people. Are we to tar everyone from those areas with the same brush??.

Bare-knuckle fighting affects settled people in what way exactly?? I dont agree with it, but at the end of the day its 2 consenting adults participating in a fight. Its not a free-for-all. Its not a riot. Its a fight between 2 men who agree to take part.

I have to say, for someone who advocates anarchy and removal of Govts. I would of thought that people who live their lives outside the system would be right up your alley??

I would not want to subsidize their lifestyle.

LookingFor · 04-01-2010 12:13PM

Increasingly disillusioned by the way we run ourselves.

Don't want to come across as bitter, but, I work crazy hours trying to establish a business that is export-driven (software services, primarily to people abroad). It's exactly the kind of business this country needs, generating 'fresh' money, new cash.

It's still at an early stage though, and it's hard. I have to live at home with my parents. I have an absolute minimum of disposable income. And I mean a minimum...such a minimum that I'd be embarassed to specify. I have to put things like doctor's visits on the long finger because I just can't afford to go every time I need to.

These are choices I've made of course. I could have settled into a 9-5 but I decided I wanted to try for something more. And I'm happy to keep trying and working my ass off to make it happen.

But what bothers me is the absolute absence of any support for people in my position. I went to my local community welfare officer about a year ago on the advice of my brother, who believed I should qualify for minimum income support. However I was met by rather snotty surprise that I would ask for this. I was told that it was my choice to be self employed and it wasn't the government's job to help me out. That if they did help people 'like me' out everyone would just give up their jobs and set up their own business. So basically if you can't or won't do anything productive, you get all the help in the world. If you try to be enterprising? None. None I've yet found at least.

Sorry if I'm resentful, but it amazes me what the government subsidises while neglecting or pilfering the pockets of the people who behave in a way that they should be encouraging.

If - if - I ever do hit that success I'm aiming for, if I ever were to become sufficiently wealthy, I will gladly become a tax exile. This country needs a reboot to be perfectly honest.

Welease · 04-01-2010 12:29PM

LookingFor wrote: »

Increasingly disillusioned by the way we run ourselves.

Don't want to come across as bitter, but, I work crazy hours trying to establish a business that is export-driven (software services, primarily to people abroad). It's exactly the kind of business this country needs, generating 'fresh' money, new cash.

It's still at an early stage though, and it's hard. I have to live at home with my parents. I have an absolute minimum of disposable income. And I mean a minimum...such a minimum that I'd be embarassed to specify. I have to put things like doctor's visits on the long finger because I just can't afford to go every time I need to.

These are choices I've made of course. I could have settled into a 9-5 but I decided I wanted to try for something more. And I'm happy to keep trying and working my ass off to make it happen.

But what bothers me is the absolute absence of any support for people in my position. I went to my local community welfare officer about a year ago on the advice of my brother, who believed I should qualify for minimum income support. However I was met by rather snotty surprise that I would ask for this. I was told that it was my choice to be self employed and it wasn't the government's job to help me out. That if they did help people 'like me' out everyone would just give up their jobs and set up their own business. So basically if you can't or won't do anything productive, you get all the help in the world. If you try to be enterprising? None. None I've yet found at least.

Sorry if I'm resentful, but it amazes me what the government subsidises while neglecting or pilfering the pockets of the people who behave in a way that they should be encouraging.

If - if - I ever do hit that success I'm aiming for, if I ever were to become sufficiently wealthy, I will gladly become a tax exile. This country needs a reboot to be perfectly honest.

Don't Enterprise Ireland deal with grants/help etc for new businesses?

Taxipete29 · 04-01-2010 12:32PM

SLUSK wrote: »

I would not want to subsidize their lifestyle.

Neither do I.

I dont think travellers should be scapegoated for wasteful Govt spending. The amount of money is not the problem. If it is being targetted properly then it will make a difference and surely we all want that. If it is not being used properly( which I suspect it isnt) then thats what needs to be looked at. Either way, demonising people is not going to solve the problems they have.

LookingFor · 04-01-2010 12:38PM

Welease wrote: »

Don't Enterprise Ireland deal with grants/help etc for new businesses?

I'm looking into this. But it's not unqualified and is used to offset expenses your business incurs. So you might spend x euros on something and you'll get y euros toward it from EI. It's useful, for certain expenditure it basically means you get more for your money. But there is no such thing as 'free money' or consistent support here as in social welfare. There's no personal support, that I am aware of, for anyone running a business with low income.

(Also, AFAIK, it's also not 'universal'...I don't think a business is entitled to it by law in the same way social welfare is an entitlement. You apply for it and cross your fingers. I know with the Dublin City Enterprise board, there are rounds of grants..you apply, and if you get it, great, but if not, tough luck. They have a limited pool of money to work with.)

What got to me though was the attitude, that I thought was pretty priceless. We can't go encouraging people to be enterprising...but if you want to stay at home and have babies while pretending to look for work? Please, do sit down, let me wire some money to your bank account. Your a traveller? Better still!

Riskymove · 04-01-2010 12:42PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Neither do I.

I dont think travellers should be scapegoated for wasteful Govt spending. The amount of money is not the problem. If it is being targetted properly then it will make a difference and surely we all want that. If it is not being used properly( which I suspect it isnt) then thats what needs to be looked at. Either way, demonising people is not going to solve the problems they have.

Thank the Indo and its ongoing standard of "Journalism" for the demonising

I am sure we could find all sorts of "Causes" given a lot of money over the last few years that would wind people up. The State runs all sorts of projects, schemes etc and we cannot all give personal approval to them; thats why we have Government to begin with

Don't Enterprise Ireland deal with grants/help etc for new businesses?

Yes they help new indigenous companies get off the ground ....or at least thats the idea

There are also lots of tax breaks etc for companies to avail of etc...to suggest that there is no help for new businesses is off the mark

Taxipete29 · 04-01-2010 12:43PM

LookingFor wrote: »

Increasingly disillusioned by the way we run ourselves.

Don't want to come across as bitter, but, I work crazy hours trying to establish a business that is export-driven (software services, primarily to people abroad). It's exactly the kind of business this country needs, generating 'fresh' money, new cash.

It's still at an early stage though, and it's hard. I have to live at home with my parents. I have an absolute minimum of disposable income. And I mean a minimum...such a minimum that I'd be embarassed to specify. I have to put things like doctor's visits on the long finger because I just can't afford to go every time I need to.

These are choices I've made of course. I could have settled into a 9-5 but I decided I wanted to try for something more. And I'm happy to keep trying and working my ass off to make it happen.

But what bothers me is the absolute absence of any support for people in my position. I went to my local community welfare officer about a year ago on the advice of my brother, who believed I should qualify for minimum income support. However I was met by rather snotty surprise that I would ask for this. I was told that it was my choice to be self employed and it wasn't the government's job to help me out. That if they did help people 'like me' out everyone would just give up their jobs and set up their own business. So basically if you can't or won't do anything productive, you get all the help in the world. If you try to be enterprising? None. None I've yet found at least.

Sorry if I'm resentful, but it amazes me what the government subsidises while neglecting or pilfering the pockets of the people who behave in a way that they should be encouraging.

If - if - I ever do hit that success I'm aiming for, if I ever were to become sufficiently wealthy, I will gladly become a tax exile. This country needs a reboot to be perfectly honest.

So you want to own your own business, hopefully make alot of money in the long run and yet you want the Govt to give you money so you can socialise in the mean time??? Get real.

Disposable Income is income after all your living expenses are deducted. Many people who work very hard have little or no disposable income.

LookingFor · 04-01-2010 12:46PM

Riskymove wrote: »

There are also lots of tax breaks etc for companies to avail of etc...to suggest that there is no help for new businesses is off the mark

Tax breaks are only helpful when you have sufficient income to start with...when you're paying sufficient tax to offset against in the first place.

My point is there is no personal support for those starting a company during those early days when a business is at its most vulnerable and when there isn't a huge expenditure capacity. Any help from the government I have sofar seen is tied to your expenditure capacity or your tax spend...it's the cheapest way for them to offer support.

Riskymove · 04-01-2010 12:48PM

LookingFor wrote: »

Tax breaks are only helpful when you have sufficient income to start with...when you're paying sufficient tax to offset against in the first place.

My point is there is no personal support for those starting a company during those early days when a business is at its most vulnerable and when there isn't a huge expenditure capacity. Any help from the government I have sofar seen is tied to your expenditure capacity or your tax spend...it's the cheapest way for them to offer support.

what exactly would you like to see the Government doing?

Barname · 04-01-2010 12:49PM

Time for a cull . . .

LookingFor · 04-01-2010 12:51PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

So you want to own your own business, hopefully make alot of money in the long run and yet you want the Govt to give you money so you can socialise in the mean time??? Get real.

Disposable Income is income after all your living expenses are deducted. Many people who work very hard have little or no disposable income.

Eh...disposable in my circumstances means any money I can afford to draw from the business for my own private expenditure.

It doesn't mean disposable in the sense of going to the cinema. It means my personal expenditure on the normal necessities.

My social life has been on life support for some time, believe you me.

I could easily lie to the cwo and claim to be looking for work and start drawing benefits. But my point is if you tell them your circumstances and then say you're self employed - whoosh...there goes your chances regardless of your financial situation. They actively discourage self employment.

Riskymove wrote: »

what exactly would you like to see the Government doing?

I would like to see more grants for promising - i.e. ones that are filtered, not just for all - early-stage businesses ,that don't have strings attached - or at least not ones that aren't tied to tax or expenditure.

I would like to see an income support scheme for self employed who submit accounts so that their income is 'topped up' to at least the level offered by the dole. Not going on into infinity, but for a certain period starting out, and for at least certain types of business (e.g. ones with potential to bring new money into the country). By all means filter these again to try and reduce fraud from people with 'pretend businesses'.

We offer financial subsidy to seemingly anyone in such circumstances except those working for themselves - the folks who we need to succeed to help dig ourselves out of the little hole we've made.

AlekSmart · 04-01-2010 12:56PM

Originally Posted by AlekSmart View Post
Its perhaps a wee bit insensitive to some,but here goes anyway.

...Does anybody consider the Sunday World front page (03/01/10) re Rathkeale and it`s Christmas visitors is in any way relevant to the debate ?

Nope - they're English. Getting a free HSE clinic is a bummer though when it's clear thay are not the poor.

So....there is SOME relevance then..is that what you`re saying..?

As a bare minimum,I would be seeking a full breakdown of the costs associated with this "Clinic Provision" and an explaination as to whether these costs will be recouped from the beneficiaries ?

TaxiPete: Bare-knuckle fighting affects settled people in what way exactly?? I dont agree with it, but at the end of the day its 2 consenting adults participating in a fight. Its not a free-for-all. Its not a riot. Its a fight between 2 men who agree to take part.

I`d have to disagree there.

The bare-knuckle stuff is but the visible example of a culture of wanton and indiscriminate physical violence which can be and is unleashed at will.

Individual BK bouts rarely end when the loser is carted from the square.
Instead the supporting factions tend to use an individual bout as a reason to continue the process,which usually ends up in brawls or even worse as was demonstrated just before Christmas in Tipperary :

http://www.emigrant.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=75684

The real purpose of BK bouts is to facilitate the movement of huge quantities of cash and other items through betting or associated business dealings.

It should not be overlooked either that what intelligence the Gardai do have indicates a growing involvement amongst the organized Irish Traveller family groups in Drug and Firearms trafficking with rapidly developing contacts to other "ethnic" groupings throughout the "New" EU.

The reluctance of the Authorities to monitor or become involved in policing such events is also a great benefit when there is "Business to be looked after".

We buffers (settled folk) usually just hope they stay well away from our contented little stress-filled lives,but when the inevitable spill-over occurs then we tend to buck at having to continually pay for the clean-up.

Welease · 04-01-2010 12:57PM

LookingFor wrote: »

I'm looking into this. But it's not unqualified and is used to offset expenses your business incurs. So you might spend x euros on something and you'll get y euros toward it from EI. It's useful, for certain expenditure it basically means you get more for your money. But there is no such thing as 'free money' or consistent support here as in social welfare. There's no personal support, that I am aware of, for anyone running a business with low income.

(Also, AFAIK, it's also not 'universal'...I don't think a business is entitled to it by law in the same way social welfare is an entitlement. You apply for it and cross your fingers. I know with the Dublin City Enterprise board, there are rounds of grants..you apply, and if you get it, great, but if not, tough luck. They have a limited pool of money to work with.)

What got to me though was the attitude, that I thought was pretty priceless. We can't go encouraging people to be enterprising...but if you want to stay at home and have babies while pretending to look for work? Please, do sit down, let me wire some money to your bank account. Your a traveller? Better still!

Of course it's not unqualified, it's there to support a business giving it a better chance of success, not as a welfare system for companies. A huge amount of business's fail due to mismanagement, lack of/bad business plan or just simple because their is no market for what they are trying to do, this country does not have the money available to fund each and every doomed business ventures, it has to pick the ones it deems has the best chance of success. If you fail at that, then the welfare system is there to soften the fall, nothing more nothing less.

Whats your solution? cut the welfare on offer to those who have literally nothing, so we can fund every Tom, Dick and Harry trying to be entrepreneurs? There is no perfect solution (and wastage aside which urgently needs to be addressed) the welfare system is there to put food on the table of the poorest, and the enterprise councils (of which there are many) are there to support business's they deem have the most chance of success given the very limited resources.

I understand your annoyance, but your asking for free money and then telling us you have no intention of paying any taxes in this country if you become successful, while effectively calling welfare recipients spongers.

Without trying to make this personal, as I have every respect for somone who is attempting to run their own business and I have been in global software/IT for over 20 years, it sounds like you are screaming at the system but have done very little to investigate the funding opportunities available to you (of which there are many) before jumping on the traveller descrimination bandwagon.

Just my 2c. (no offence intended).

Taxipete29 · 04-01-2010 01:11PM

LookingFor wrote: »

Eh...disposable in my circumstances means any money I can afford to draw from the business for my own private expenditure.

It doesn't mean disposable in the sense of going to the cinema. It means my personal expenditure on the normal necessities.

My social life has been on life support for some time, believe you me.

I could easily lie to the cwo and claim to be looking for work and start drawing benefits. But my point is if you tell them your circumstances and then say you're self employed - whoosh...there goes your chances regardless of your financial situation. They actively discourage self employment..

No offence but thats not disposable income. Would it not of been more prudent to insure you had an adequate personal reserve to live off until you got your business off the ground??

Im not knocking your enterprise, but people who become self-employed know or should know the risks involved.

LookingFor · 04-01-2010 01:19PM

Welease wrote: »

Of course it's not unqualified, it's there to support a business giving it a better chance of success, not as a welfare system for companies. A huge amount of business's fail due to mismanagement, lack of/bad business plan or just simple because their is no market for what they are trying to do, this country does not have the money available to fund each and every doomed business ventures, it has to pick the ones it deems has the best chance of success. If you fail at that, then the welfare system is there to soften the fall, nothing more nothing less.

I agree, I'm not asking it to be entirely unqualified. I do think you need filtering. However filtering purely on tax or expenditure is missing a beat IMO.

Welease wrote: »

Whats your solution? cut the welfare on offer to those who have literally nothing, so we can fund every Tom, Dick and Harry trying to be entrepreneurs? There is no perfect solution (and wastage aside which urgently needs to be addressed) the welfare system is there to put food on the table of the poorest, and the enterprise councils (of which there are many) are there to support business's they deem have the most chance of success given the very limited resources.

I would say to cut the kind of expenditure this thread OP is claiming. I'm not saying to cut 'regular' welfare - which itself sees plenty of 'hopeless cases' benefit, and people making fraudulent claims...just as long as they claim to seek employment (vs self employment, the latter which we shold be encouraging).

It's the type of waste seen in the example in THIS thread that gets on my wick. Better to have 'wasted' a good deal of that money on a selection of the country's more enterprising citizens than in this manner. Would some of that money be forever lost? Probably. But your chances of getting it back over the longer term would probably have been quite a bit higher.

Welease wrote: »

I understand your annoyance, but your asking for free money and then telling us you have no intention of paying any taxes in this country if you become successful, while effectively calling welfare recipients spongers.

I would of course reconsider my attitude if there was better support here. But if there's not, and if my income is predominantly arriving from abroad, I see absolutely no reason to owe the government anything if they weren't there to help me or people like me. I wouldn't want 'actually new fresh money' being wasted on stuff like this while others in a situation similar to mine now are getting no support.

Welease wrote: »

Without trying to make this personal, as I have every respect for somone who is attempting to run their own business and I have been in global software/IT for over 20 years, it sounds like you are screaming at the system but have done very little to investigate the funding opportunities available to you (of which there are many) before jumping on the traveller descrimination bandwagon.

It's not about travellers. This is an inordinate waste whomever is involved. If I didn't hear about stuff like this I wouldn't be nearly as resentful of the state of welfare in the country...but as is, I find it hard to agree with how money is being spent when I read things like this. There's little or no reason to give Travellers - for example - this level of special treatment while leaving other groups out on their own to a fairly substantial degree (vs other government help...EI and the enterprise boards are nice and all that, but they're no reliable, universal support scheme in the way other schemes are).

LookingFor · 04-01-2010 01:26PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

No offence but thats not disposable income. Would it not of been more prudent to insure you had an adequate personal reserve to live off until you got your business off the ground??

Im not knocking your enterprise, but people who become self-employed know or should know the risks involved.

People who are employed by others should also know the risks involved. However we provide a safety net for them with few questions asked when things aren't going so well there.

Your post kinda perfectly highlights the attitude we have in this country about these things though about employment vs self-employment. When you really break them apart, neither path seems less deserving than the other of help, help for both is open to abuse and fraud, so why people view them differently, and view the responsibility for the risk involved with each differently...it's puzzling to me.

I'm not even asking for quite the same safety net for the self employed as I outlined above - but I am simply lamenting the type of waste of money seen here with an eye on the total lack of such support for other groups who choose another different kind of life to the norm...

Welease · 04-01-2010 01:34PM

LookingFor wrote: »

There's little or no reason to give Travellers - for example - this level of special treatment while leaving other groups out on their own to a fairly substantial degree (vs other government help...EI and the enterprise boards are nice and all that, but they're no reliable, universal support scheme in the way other schemes are).

So lets get specific.. what special treatment?

The articles talks about...
Education programs - there are education programs for all groups and walks of life... The are programs for special needs, adults, ethnic communities, rural communities, gaelic communities, religion communities.. the traveller programs are one such program where there is a clearly demonstrated need that "standard" education is not working.
Housing - Should travellers not be allowed the same rights to social housing as others?

Much as you continue to try and ignore it, there are many many enterprise boards available for companies.. You have plenty of help available right there.. You are getting your opportunity for as much special treatment as is commercially viable for this country. You don't seem to have made a concerted effort to even find out what is available and what the process involves, you just want a simple handout.

There will never be a universal support scheme available because its not necessary... Those schemes are there to help those who have no options essentially left.. You have options.. You are running a business and decided to do so. Universal handouts for companies would be a disaster.. I have met and listened to many Uni student who set up their own companies in software hoping to make a killing... What did they lack?.. IP/Patents, products, ideas and services that people wanted to buy, and they wanted to charge 10 times as much as it costs me to develop the same in India or China.. Should there be a universal plan to support those doomed enterprises?

In short, this country does not have the funds available to handhold every business.. If there is 0 financial support for a company from entrerprise boards, investors, other companies, banks, etc etc. they there is a big chance that company really doesn't have much to offer that isn't already available in a multitude of other places (for cheaper).

Your safety net is there.. if the business fail, you can collect welfare, this country does not have an exhaustable supply of cash to fund they majority of business (good and bad) on top of that. In a perfect world we would, but we dont..

LookingFor · 04-01-2010 02:01PM

Welease wrote: »

So lets get specific.. what special treatment?

The articles talks about...
Education programs - there are education programs for all groups and walks of life... The are programs for special needs, adults, ethnic communities, rural communities, gaelic communities, religion communities.. the traveller programs are one such program where there is a clearly demonstrated need that "standard" education is not working.
Housing - Should travellers not be allowed the same rights to social housing as others?

Travellers should have the same education and housing access as everyone, of course.

However the article in the OP suggests this was added expenditure.

Things like that case of spending 3m on housing for 6 families - though a corner case I'm sure and not the fault of the traveller - still is enough on its own to annoy.

I think there's also the underlying suggestion that the way they choose to live is incurring extra expense for the state vs others.

Welease wrote: »

Much as you continue to try and ignore it, there are many many enterprise boards available for companies.. You have plenty of help available right there.. You are getting your opportunity for as much special treatment as is commercially viable for this country.

Well first of all there is 'one' enterprise board at your disposal. You can't seek financial assistance from multiple ones, or at least once you do get any assistance from one it precludes getting assistance from others.

And I've already outlined how I think that falls short.

But let's focus for a second on that last comment - commercially viable. Let's apply this to everything and everyone so.

We don't. We treat different groups differently. Commercial viability doesn't enter into the equation. You can be a completely hopeless case, from a productivity/'commercial' point of view, yet claim benefit with no strings attached.

Now don't conflate what I'm saying with an idea that I personally think said people shouldn't recieve benefit. What I'm doing is pointing out the disparity between the types of support available to people in different circumstances.

'Genuinely seeking work' = instant access to a predictable flow of money to keep you going with virtually no questions asked.

'Genuinely working for oneself' = nothing. Or the strict and highly discriminating support of EI/enterprise boards etc.

Welease wrote: »

You don't seem to have made a concerted effort to even find out what is available and what the process involves, you just want a simple handout.

I don't. As I already said, I'm happy to jump through many more hoops than my employment seeking brethern do. I'm simply saying I think the hoops as they currently are are too discriminating.

Welease wrote: »

There will never be a universal support scheme available because its not necessary... Those schemes are there to help those who have no options essentially left.. You have options.. You are running a business and decided to do so. Universal handouts for companies would be a disaster.. I have met and listened to many Uni student who set up their own companies in software hoping to make a killing... What did they lack?.. IP/Patents, products, ideas and services that people wanted to buy, and they wanted to charge 10 times as much as it costs me to develop the same in India or China.. Should there be a universal plan to support those doomed enterprises?

Again, don't conflate my pointing out of the difference in levels of support with advocating a universal, no-strings system. As I said, I would support heavy filtering, just not solely on the basis used currently.

Me saying 'we get Y while they get X!' doesn't mean I think we should get X or anyone should...just pointing out the difference in how we approach things here.

Welease wrote: »

In short, this country does not have the funds available to handhold every business.. If there is 0 financial support for a company from entrerprise boards, investors, other companies, banks, etc etc.

Investors and bank support are quite different from what we're talking about here. I'm talking about government support. I could equally say that if as a person seeking work no one will lend to you or no one will invest in you with an eye on taking a cut of your future salary then you don't have much to offer in terms of future potential so...you're on your own?

Welease wrote: »

Your safety net is there.. if the business fail, you can collect welfare

As I said, you can. If you effectively agree not to attempt to work for yourself and start seeking work from others. It's a different point from the ones above, subtley, but it's a big disincentive to entrepeneurism. You can, if you like, fail over and over in the world of employment, and enjoy government support in between times, but there's no such reassurance in self-employed land. But when you get down to it, everyone is working for themselves. When you go out to work for an employer, you are selling your time. It's fundamentally no different to a businessman selling things to a customer. Yet when it comes to state benefit, if you are seeking income from the latter rather than the former, it's the difference between getting something and getting absolutely nothing.

And maybe that's the right way to do it...but while it is, any percieved government waste can expect heavy and particular criticism from those of us on this side of the fence.

since 2002 State has paid out €1bn to Traveller projects (mod warning post 207)

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