Steroid use in MMA No allegations, just discussion

Killme00 · 24-12-2009 11:24am #1

How prevalent is steroid use in MMA in general and Irish MMA in particular? I was reading a thread on the sherdog grappling forum where it is claimed that many top competitors use steroids. With a few UFC and former Pride fighters testing positive recently it obviously goes on but do you think it is widespread? With MMA still relatively young in Ireland, does it happen here?

Here's the sherdog thread

Im looking for the Stephen Kesting newsletter now.

irishdownhiller · 24-12-2009 12:54pm

id say the chances of it happening are pretty high, not sure how thorogh the tests are but i dont think they test as much as say for cyclists of athletics, look at mayweather v pacqiou this week, pac man wont take blood test a month before, maybe hes on the juice, uses that time to get it out of his system. its sad reailty but most professional sportsmen/women are on it

Chris89 · 24-12-2009 1:03pm

I would be very surprised if there was anyone in the top flight in mma, or any other professional sport for that matter, who isnt taking performance enhancing drugs.

I haven't a clue about them myself, but from what i have read, as there is so many different drugs etc, and because of how expensive the testing is, oftentimes the test will actually be for substances used to mask other substances.

Theres so many ways of beating the system, i wont comment on Irish MMA but looking at pretty much everyone in the UFC especially the HW divison, its pretty obvious that there's no "natural" fighters.

rovert · 24-12-2009 2:04pm

This is dodgy ground if previous threads are anything to go by. From the outset you need to make the distinction between steroids and HGH when you speak about this.

But yeah of course it is extremely prevalent just look at how successful the advent of out of competition testing has been this year. As others have pointed out it is more concentrated at the top of the card as they have more money to spend on the designer drugs (HGH) which are the least detectable. In PRIDE it was pretty much part of course for fighters and it still it seems to be in MMA in Japan.

*mentions no names*

dunkamania · 24-12-2009 2:18pm

I strongly suggest posters read the forum charter relating to steroid abuse allegations before posting in this thread.

Killme00 · 24-12-2009 3:14pm

rovert wrote: »

From the outset you need to make the distinction between steroids and HGH when you speak about this

Just steroids. I also dont see the problem in having a discussion relating to steroid use in MMA as long as it doesnt get dragged down by accusations or trolling.

In my opinion the technology (performance enhancing) available to competitiors is superior to the tesing used is most sports, and testing will always lag behind the advances made in new steroids.

Some questions:
Is it possible to train full time without steroids?
Would you take steroids if you knew you opponent had been using them?
Does anyone think steroids are used in Irish MMA?

Chris89 · 24-12-2009 3:32pm

Killme00 wrote: »

Is it possible to train full time without steroids?
Would you take steroids if you knew you opponent had been using them?
Does anyone think steroids are used in Irish MMA?

1. Obviously yes
2. To fight Irish MMA? no, if i was fighting for a bigger purse.. yes.
3. Yes

rovert · 24-12-2009 3:35pm

Killme00 wrote: »

Would you take steroids if you knew you opponent had been using them?

Im not a fighter but it is just the Prisoners Dilemma from Game Theory isnt it?

Like in all discussions along these lines Bigger, Stronger, Faster is required viewing.

Turbo_diesel · 24-12-2009 4:06pm

For those fighters who use performance enhancing drugs wonder how much more an advantage does it give them? It must purely provide them with greater strength & endurance? Would like to think that the better fighter would always come out on top regardless of which one was on juice. Would also like to think that best fighters out there are clean but then again Im probably being dilliusional:(

Link for the flick Rovert talks about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8nOKJTL6Tg&feature=related

Martin Walker · 24-12-2009 4:18pm

Steroids are used in many ways by many different sports people.

In Ireland i think that some people on the circuit are using steroids. However i dont think they are using them to make them have the edge in MMA. The people i think are using steroids i think were using them before they got into MMA. Most guys i know useing steroids use them for personal reasons not to be the best at a sport. Just to get bigger faster and to "look the part" if you will. I dont think its a massive problem in the sport in the country but for the users health its not worth it.

Top level MMA however is different. The people using steroids in top flight MMA do so to get that edge. At the end of the day there just cheating to be better. Its not the same as local fighters at all. But steroids are widely available so people will use them.
Hope that makes sense.

markfightie · 24-12-2009 5:14pm

Are we talking just about anabolic steroids or other drugs that are often given the steroid banner but are no more a steroid than a glass of milk

ie: im sure there are lots of competitors in irish mma and worldwide using a variety of drugs when cutting weight, clenbuterol, t3, ephedrine etc... do we class these as steroid users?

Pride Fighter · 24-12-2009 5:39pm

There is not testing for steroids so it is easy to get away with. In the US where there is testing random tests are infrequent and very rare. I have seen products that can flush out steroids within 5 days. The human body expels any trace after 28 days so it gives an edge. Generally the fighter with the skill will win. But if you are a competent MMA fighter and uber strong from roids you can win. Just look at the former UFC champ Sean Sherk, just held his opponents down.

I'd say roid abuse is prevalent in MMA. Unless there is a proper global body or affiliation with WADA it will continue.

Chris89 · 24-12-2009 6:05pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is not testing for steroids so it is easy to get away with. In the US where there is testing random tests are infrequent and very rare. I have seen products that can flush out steroids within 5 days. The human body expels any trace after 28 days so it gives an edge. Generally the fighter with the skill will win. But if you are a competent MMA fighter and uber strong from roids you can win. Just look at the former UFC champ Sean Sherk, just held his opponents down.

I'd say roid abuse is prevalent in MMA. Unless there is a proper global body or affiliation with WADA it will continue.

Yeah, sherks wrestling had nothing to do with that. just all them protein shakes and fish oils he was taking. yeah. yeah. hmm.

Tim_Murphy · 26-12-2009 10:50am

If there is no testing and there are no specific rules against it then is taking steroids (or whatever else) actually cheating at all?

I'd be surprised if nobody in Irish MMA had ever taken steroids but I'd doubt it is prevalent either.

AARRRGH · 26-12-2009 5:02pm

Chris89 wrote: »

I would be very surprised if there was anyone in the top flight in mma, or any other professional sport for that matter, who isnt taking performance enhancing drugs.

I agree. All you had to do is frequent the streroids forums to see how popular they really are at all levels of sport.

It's also pretty easy to get away with taking them. You have to **** up to get caught.

If you watch the documentary "Bigger, stronger, faster" they had some Olympics people talking about how some of the very famous athletes who never got caught did in fact take steroids.

Anyway, they've been proven to be safe (if you have a doctor monitor your usage) so I don't personally have a problem with them.

Chris89 · 26-12-2009 5:52pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I agree. All you had to do is frequent the streroids forums to see how popular they really are at all levels of sport.

It's also pretty easy to get away with taking them. You have to **** up to get caught.

If you watch the documentary "Bigger, stronger, faster" they had some Olympics people talking about how some of the very famous athletes who never got caught did in fact take steroids.

Anyway, they've been proven to be safe (if you have a doctor monitor your usage) so I don't personally have a problem with them.

Yeah, a weightlifting forum i post on has a steroids section which i read every now and then out of interest, a lot of the posters are athletes of some description, mostly collegiate but a few pros.

Greg Glassman, the crossfit coach said at a seminar once that EVERY professional athlete is taking, or has taken PED's of some description.

I agree with this, i think anyone who disagrees is naive.

Menace2Society · 27-12-2009 11:27pm

markfightie wrote: »

ie: im sure there are lots of competitors in irish mma and worldwide using a variety of drugs when cutting weight, clenbuterol, t3, ephedrine etc... do we class these as steroid users?

And what do these do?

I can put my hand on my heart and say I've never taken gear! And I've never took any of these sorts of things either, I took a testosterone booster once and it made me go crazy, I felt different, like you could have put Wandy in with me & fought have stood toe 2 toe, so I decided that probably wasn't good for me. I would take diahoralite to help rehydrate but that's it.

So to answer the questions above - can you train full time without gear - yes!
Would I take it if I knew my opponents where on it - No
people in Irish mma on it - YES!

I don't see why everyone get scared on mma forums when someone mentions steroids. It has & will be part of the sport until regular drug testing is availble throught the sport, in all countries.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 27-12-2009 11:55pm

markfightie wrote: »

Are we talking just about anabolic steroids or other drugs that are often given the steroid banner but are no more a steroid than a glass of milk

ie: im sure there are lots of competitors in irish mma and worldwide using a variety of drugs when cutting weight, clenbuterol, t3, ephedrine etc... do we class these as steroid users?

That will most likely have gone over most people's heads.

I'd say unless an athlete has a background in bodybuilding then Clen or T3 won't mean a whole lot, and besides using T3 therapy only works effectively with testo.

Ephedrine is a whole different kettle of fish, I'd dare say its enhances athletic performance in the very short term most so than AAS, and most user's will be ignorant of any side effects so will use it if its readily available.

In Ireland I'd say there's a tiny minority who'll juice, and I'd say the same people were juicing before getting into MMA.

cowzerp · 28-12-2009 12:15pm

In Ireland there is no money in MMA so i doubt anyone would take steroids for mma competition as there expensive, in saying that I'm sure some mma fighters do them but they probably would even if not competing in MMA..

Vanity more than performance id guess.

Raze_them_all · 28-12-2009 3:59pm

cowzerp wrote: »

In Ireland there is no money in MMA so i doubt anyone would take steroids for mma competition as there expensive, in saying that I'm sure some mma fighters do them but they probably would even if not competing in MMA..

Vanity more than performance id guess.

Not true, You can get them for dirt cheap these days,steroids are only as expensive as yer willing to pay, in the last few months I've been offered stuff some was mad expensive and some was dirt cheap.

Personally I don't see the appeal of steroids, for me it'd cheapen any results you achieve. That being said I do think a very very small minority in Ireland are on/were on steroids at some point.

I could be wrong though.

Roper · 28-12-2009 11:22pm

Chris89 wrote: »

Greg Glassman, the crossfit coach said at a seminar once that EVERY professional athlete is taking, or has taken PED's of some description.

I agree with this, i think anyone who disagrees is naive.

Greg Glassman knows as much about the PED taking habits of professional athletes as I do about the migratory patterns of south american snails, and I'm no David Attenborough.

As in all of these cases, you have to look at risk versus reward. The rewards of professional contracts are massive, multi million dollar contracts. The risks are getting caught are being banned for three to six months. Now that neither says yay or nay to steroid use, but given the ease of masking, the ease of cycling off before fights, the amount of time between fights to cycle your intake and the fact that there is so much at stake, I'd have to come right out and say that professional top tier fighters would be in a very good position to use steroids. That's my political answer.

I'm quite straightforward about this. If you are competing in a tested sport and you use PEDs, you are a cheat. But to take away the simplicity for a moment, if you were say, a heavyweight whose contract, sponsorship and essentally your living depended on you fighting and winning in that division, and you suddenly found yourself underweight and outgunned, what would you do? Slide into obscurity or go on a relatively benign course?

Menace2Society · 29-12-2009 1:13am

Roper wrote: »

Greg Glassman knows as much about the PED taking habits of professional athletes as I do about the migratory patterns of south american snails, and I'm no David Attenborough.

Lol.

You do have a good point tho with the rest of the post. But I agree any drugs, are cheating!

Killme00 · 29-12-2009 10:44am

Menace2Society wrote: »

Lol.

You do have a good point tho with the rest of the post. But I agree any drugs, are cheating!

From what i read, he didnt say that. He said "in sports where they are banned". I dont think the use of PED's are banned in MMA, its the actual athlethic commisions (Nevada etc) that ban them for use in their domain.

Chris89 · 29-12-2009 11:52am

Roper wrote: »

Greg Glassman knows as much about the PED taking habits of professional athletes as I do about the migratory patterns of south american snails, and I'm no David Attenborough.

i'll give you that.

I think he may know more than us though, certainly more than me.

Theres some huge lads in the nfl.

Whether its cheating or not, i still think its naive to deny it.

Roper · 30-12-2009 12:31pm

Chris89 wrote: »

i'll give you that.

I think he may know more than us though, certainly more than me.

Theres some huge lads in the nfl.

Whether its cheating or not, i still think its naive to deny it.

He's a hopelessly deluded fool with an overinflated sense of self worth. I wouldn't take any of what he says as anything other than self promoting horse****.

Leaving aside the moral cheating/non-cheating aspect of using during a training period, given that fighters can go anything up to a year between fights, is it still cheating if a guy cycles off before his competitive period, say when he's training for a fight?

Just playing Devil's advocate. This issue isn't black and white.

cowzerp · 30-12-2009 12:35pm

In my mind its cheating if the aim is for it make you a better competitor, your using an illegal substance to reach your goal so not plainy on a level playing field as the fighters who are playing by the legal rules.

Roper wrote: »

Leaving aside the moral cheating/non-cheating aspect of using during a training period, given that fighters can go anything up to a year between fights, is it still cheating if a guy cycles off before his competitive period, say when he's training for a fight?

Just playing Devil's advocate. This issue isn't black and white.

Roper · 30-12-2009 12:55pm

Devil's Advocate again:

So if a guy decides he'd like to look better naked by putting on some muscle, goes on a course and ends up bigger and stronger, then decides he'd like to return to MMA, by your rationale that's okay because he wasn't taking them to improve performance? Even though it does in the end help him to improve performance, since his original intention was just to pull more women he's not a cheat?

I'm not saying what you're saying isn't true, I'm just trying to highlight the fact that this isn't a black and white issue of cheat/not a cheat. This is the trouble every sport is having the world over.

juijitsu black · 30-12-2009 2:22pm

Its a discrace if any1 takes roids to compete in Irish MMA, Its the same (well similar as taking them to compete in the Mosney games in dublin) .......... Its an Amature sport here! At the end of the day, most roids in Ireland are fake! Just cooking oil! And the silly people who take them arent getting any benifit at all. But some guys in the know are on real gear and it aint fair, But what can we do? Unless we get rid off every club in Ireland trying to hold shows and saying they are the best this problem wont stop. I was involved in a couple of shows a few year ago and we set up a big organisation but only a few clus wer interested so the whole thing fell threw. I think every1 wants to be number 1, the top dog, and this holds everyone else back from becoming part off a proffesional sport in Ireland.:mad:

cowzerp · 30-12-2009 3:19pm

Roper wrote: »

Devil's Advocate again:

So if a guy decides he'd like to look better naked by putting on some muscle, goes on a course and ends up bigger and stronger, then decides he'd like to return to MMA, by your rationale that's okay because he wasn't taking them to improve performance? Even though it does in the end help him to improve performance, since his original intention was just to pull more women he's not a cheat?

I'm not saying what you're saying isn't true, I'm just trying to highlight the fact that this isn't a black and white issue of cheat/not a cheat. This is the trouble every sport is having the world over.

No, the intention to cheat would not be there, thats all im saying.
but there still cheating themselves imo

Chris89 · 30-12-2009 3:24pm

juijitsu black wrote: »

Its a discrace if any1 takes roids to compete in Irish MMA, Its the same (well similar as taking them to compete in the Mosney games in dublin) .......... Its an Amature sport here! At the end of the day, most roids in Ireland are fake! Just cooking oil! And the silly people who take them arent getting any benifit at all. But some guys in the know are on real gear and it aint fair, But what can we do? Unless we get rid off every club in Ireland trying to hold shows and saying they are the best this problem wont stop. I was involved in a couple of shows a few year ago and we set up a big organisation but only a few clus wer interested so the whole thing fell threw. I think every1 wants to be number 1, the top dog, and this holds everyone else back from becoming part off a proffesional sport in Ireland.:mad:

roper, ill think of a witty rebuttle to your post in a minute.

But jesus christ almighty on a unicycle... what is this ****e even meant to mean?? Cooking oil?? Im actually lost for words, what do you even mean by any of this muck?

How exactly were you involved in shows? Paying in doesnt count as being involved.

I think every1 wants to be number 1, the top dog, and this holds everyone else back from becoming part off a proffesional sport in Ireland

..... yeah like that makes perfect sense, what we should do, is take away the competive aspect of the sport and really give it the chance to flourish.

Thats what they did with soccer in the early 1900's, just told everybody to stop wanting to win, stop wanting to be number 1, and now its a professional sport.

Im upset that you are even allowed to have a computer.

Chris89 · 30-12-2009 3:29pm

Roper wrote: »

He's a hopelessly deluded fool with an overinflated sense of self worth. I wouldn't take any of what he says as anything other than self promoting horse****.

Leaving aside the moral cheating/non-cheating aspect of using during a training period, given that fighters can go anything up to a year between fights, is it still cheating if a guy cycles off before his competitive period, say when he's training for a fight?

Just playing Devil's advocate. This issue isn't black and white.

I dont know, I do agree with the self promoting part, but like.. hes pretty good at making people little fits and little strongs.

I have no real opinion on whether it's cheating or not. I would just like to argue that a huge number of professional athletes have taken,are taking or will take some sort of PED at some stage in their career.

even if it is cooking oil.

John Ferguson · 30-12-2009 3:45pm

Chris89 wrote: »

even if it is cooking oil.

Lol

NG-DOC · 30-12-2009 4:35pm

Chris89 wrote: »

Im upset that you are even allowed to have a computer.

Chris89 you obviously don't even know that he's a jiujitsublack

RustyBeanTin · 30-12-2009 6:10pm

cowzerp wrote: »

In Ireland there is no money in MMA so i doubt anyone would take steroids for mma competition as there expensive, in saying that I'm sure some mma fighters do them but they probably would even if not competing in MMA..

Vanity more than performance id guess.

steroids are as cheap as chips, a quick search on google will prove that, i personally would like to see them become more acceptable in certain sports such as mma, boxing etc like the way they are in bodybuilding, you could still have the drug tested side to the sport but i cant help but think that they would become even more exciting than they already are

Raze_them_all · 30-12-2009 8:39pm

RustyBeanTin wrote: »

steroids are as cheap as chips, a quick search on google will prove that, i personally would like to see them become more acceptable in certain sports such as mma, boxing etc like the way they are in bodybuilding, you could still have the drug tested side to the sport but i cant help but think that they would become even more exciting than they already are

You are clearly not someone who competes. Bodybuilding is to look good. MMA and boxing are a skilled sport.

vasch_ro · 02-01-2010 1:27pm

especially for Roper

Martin Walker · 02-01-2010 3:16pm

Chris89 wrote: »

roper, ill think of a witty rebuttle to your post in a minute.

But jesus christ almighty on a unicycle... what is this ****e even meant to mean?? Cooking oil?? Im actually lost for words, what do you even mean by any of this muck?

How exactly were you involved in shows? Paying in doesnt count as being involved.

I think every1 wants to be number 1, the top dog, and this holds everyone else back from becoming part off a proffesional sport in Ireland

..... yeah like that makes perfect sense, what we should do, is take away the competive aspect of the sport and really give it the chance to flourish.

Thats what they did with soccer in the early 1900's, just told everybody to stop wanting to win, stop wanting to be number 1, and now its a professional sport.

Im upset that you are even allowed to have a computer.

This is without a doubt the best post ive read on this board in a long time! Bravo:D

John Ferguson · 02-01-2010 4:45pm

Martin Walker wrote: »

This is without a doubt the best post ive read on this board in a long time! Bravo:D

Here here!!! Bravo

ScottStorm · 02-01-2010 5:42pm

juijitsu black wrote: »

Its a discrace if any1 takes roids to compete in Irish MMA, Its the same (well similar as taking them to compete in the Mosney games in dublin) .......... Its an Amature sport here! At the end of the day, most roids in Ireland are fake! Just cooking oil! And the silly people who take them arent getting any benifit at all. But some guys in the know are on real gear and it aint fair, But what can we do? Unless we get rid off every club in Ireland trying to hold shows and saying they are the best this problem wont stop. I was involved in a couple of shows a few year ago and we set up a big organisation but only a few clus wer interested so the whole thing fell threw. I think every1 wants to be number 1, the top dog, and this holds everyone else back from becoming part off a proffesional sport in Ireland.:mad:

People wanting to be the best they can be is preventing MMA from becoming a professional sport in Ireland? It has nothing to do with Ireland being a very small country then?
You mention most steroids in Ireland being cooking oil? do you mean synthol? If so the grotesque cosmetic benefits would be obvious to the user and they would be aware of no strength gains.

Oh and Mosney is in Meath not Dublin.

RustyBeanTin · 03-01-2010 2:50pm

Raze_them_all wrote: »

You are clearly not someone who competes. Bodybuilding is to look good. MMA and boxing are a skilled sport.

well if that is the case, then why are there so many cases of steroid abuse within MMA and so many other 'skilled' sports if they were only designed to make u look good

Roper · 03-01-2010 3:52pm

Raze_them_all wrote: »

You are clearly not someone who competes. Bodybuilding is to look good. MMA and boxing are a skilled sport.

I don't see why skills or appearance have any relevance to a steroids debate.

Sid_Justice · 03-01-2010 5:45pm

Using steroids and other PEDs that are banned in all regulated sports is cheating. There is just a technicality in MMA in which there is no organisation banning their usage in most jurisdictions.

But, I grow more and more indifferent to their usage. Some people would lead you to believe that any professional athlete, with sensible supervised usage (specialist doctor etc.) can only benefit from their usage. Ultimately making them less injury prone etc.

Others will tell you that without an outright ban and serious consequences for usage, naive athletes will abuse PEDs and **** them selves up in the short/long term.

I certainly don't know enough about the various performance enhancers to cast judgement on their legitimacy.

HammerHeadGym · 04-01-2010 8:30am

Menace2Society wrote: »

I can put my hand on my heart and say I've never taken gear... I took a testosterone booster once ...

What do you think steroids are mate?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 04-01-2010 8:32am

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

What do you think steroids are mate?

They are a synthetic testosterone, AAS suppresses your natural testo production it doesn't boost it.

juijitsu black · 05-01-2010 1:19pm

Oh and Mosney is in Meath not Dublin.[/quote]

Thanks for the geography lesson.;)

Oh and is sesamee seed oil ( obviovsly wrong spelling) not a type off cooking oil:eek::eek: As per usual I am correct!!! A quuick google search will confirm it.:cool: Oh yeah!!! And yup, the holy jesus on a bike thing was one off best comebacks I have read on this board, lol.

Steroid use in MMA **No allegations, just discussion**

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Steroid use in MMA No allegations, just discussion