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Longford Cathedral on fire

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    #62
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    These things are relevant to every part of ireland, to every Church, to every Christian.

    So many ostriches around....

    The fall out of course affects us all.

    And thank God it does.

    NB Just checked the records and there was abuse in Longford, dealt with in the Ryan report; the Sisters of Mercy, who are under the control of the Bishop.
    garfieldsghost wrote: »
    What's that got to do with the fire itself and the effect it's had on Longford's community? That is, after all, what we're supposed to be discussing here. If you want to talk about the Murphy Reports and the fall out from it, go over to the Christianity section and talk about it in the relevant topic.


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    #63
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    The burning down of the cathedral in Longford is unfortunate but it does have to be seen in the context of what I believe (and hope) is the complete finishing of Church power in this country.

    For far too long, Irish people have been acting like brainwashed sheep on the issue of religion and really need to do a lot of growing up and be able to think for themselves.

    At the end of the day it's only a building - and thankfully no-one was killed but tens of thousands of children's lives were destroyed forever because of endemic sexual abuse within the Irish Catholic church.


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    #64
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Amen to this. Thank you.
    JupiterKid wrote: »
    The burning down of the cathederal in Longford is unfortunate but it does have to be seen in the context of what I believe (and hope) is the complete finishing of Church power in this country.

    For far too long, Irish people have been acting like brainwashed sheep on the issue of religion and need to do a lot of growing up and think for themselves.
    At the end of the day it's only a building - and thankfully no-one was killed but tends of thousands of children's lives were ruined for ever because of endemic sexual abuse in the Irish Catholic church.


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    #65
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    And the f***ing soap boxing continues.

    If ye want a theological debate then piss off to one of the religon and spirituality forums.

    Generations of people had their lives centered around the cathedral,they were baptised there,had their communion and confirmation there,got married there and were buried there so what the f**k business do any of you c***s have posting in this thread with the bull**** ye are spouting?

    Ye are sooooooo cool and controversial,bring down the church and blah blah blah

    Newsflash people,the church was here before ye and it will certainly outlive you sad bastards,thats the best f***k you of all to you bunch of pricks.

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.


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    #66
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Graces7: If you genuinely take the stance you do, I wonder why you are a member of the Roman Catholic Church at all. Surely there are opportunities to pursue the Gospel elsewhere.

    If I had that much distrust in the clergy, I probably if I were Roman Catholic have left by now.

    I can't help but think that it is sad to think that people are abusing the burning of a cathedral to pursue external agendas.


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    #67
    egan007
    Registered Users Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭egan007


    What does the destruction of a historic building have to do with feeling up kiddies.
    Jasus I've been passing that cathedral for 30years - it means nothing to me as a religous symbol but it's a really nice building and i'm sad to see it burn.

    As usual these threads go off in a completely tangent - relax.


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    #68
    MDFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭MDFM


    and i thought this thread was about the loss of our beautiful cathedral..where some of us have spent a huge portion of our lives thro the normal passages of life - births/marriages/funerals..communions/confirmations and so on..
    this is a huge huge personal loss to some of us and is so far removed from the abuse scandals..
    so many people i know are in despair at the loss of this beautiful part of longford and i'm in sympathy with them as i'm sharing their grief..its a huge shock to the community and i hope we can restore it to its former glory eventually.


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    #69
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    Graces7 wrote: »
    But you have no way of knowing if a priest is clean of abuse.


    True. Any wonder people stop going to mass.


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    #70
    g5fd6ow0hseima
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,787 ✭✭✭g5fd6ow0hseima


    I know little about the issue itself or the developments in the aftermath of the destruction of the building, but will the Church have the cheek to ask the public for money towards a restoration fund? Surely they'll just dip into their vast sums of wealth in order to rebuild the cathedral?


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    #71
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I'd be fairly certain they have some insurance on that building.


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    #72
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    Spencer Lively Villa wrote: »
    I know little about the issue itself or the developments in the aftermath of the destruction of the building, but will the Church have the cheek to ask the public for money towards a restoration fund? Surely they'll just dip into their vast sums of wealth in order to rebuild the cathedral?

    If any priest started begging for money I don't think anyone would give it. It would drive the few remaining faithfuls out of the place for good.


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    #73
    lumpynomore
    Registered Users Posts: 13 ✭lumpynomore


    To be honest, all I see from some posters in this thread is an oppertunity to bash the church and clergy. I'm not a practising catholic but I have cherised memories of St.Mel's and however it burned down, I'm upset at it's loss.


    I don't condone abuse of any child, be it at the hands of the clergy. a stranger or a so-called loved one. So when you supporting those touched by the horror of abuse don't confine it to one sector or use it to "big yourself up" on a forum.

    Religion like everything else is a choice, no-one can dictate to another. Some use buildings to worship, others don't need more than a quiet moment in the day.

    My sympathy to all, who like myself, mourn a beautiful cherished part of Longford town. Not a life, or major loss to some, but a loss nonetheless.


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    #74
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    What a complete non sequitur this is.. ..... Are you saying that we should approve and condone abuse of children or any other crime committed by clergy ; yes I am Catholic; yet I deplore and am disgusted at rhe present corruption in the Irish Church; as is Archbishop Martin, the Holy Father and every other true Catholic.

    Are you defending crime and sin?

    We seek a purity in Holy Mother Church; for her to be cleansed of this rot and evil now.

    And how can anyone take Communion from hands filthy with this?

    "Some people don't like accepting this, but secular child abuse in Ireland was also hugely appalling. Pointing the finger at the Roman Catholic Church is much easier though isn't it?"

    This too is very suspect indeed; the pot calling the kettle black .. Passing the buck...Can you really not see that is is far, far worse for a Catholic Priest to abuse than for a secular person? And that also many of the seculars who abuse were themselves abused by our clergy?

    If we who profess the gospel live impure lives and condone sin?

    If priests speak words they act against? Vowed celibates raping children.

    How we wound the heart of Jesus then.

    And no, it is heartbreaking, as again ArchbishopMartin and the Holy Father himself are saying, over and over again, to have to face what has gone on.

    Some of us wept for days when the Ryan report came out.

    We who face and speak of this are the true Catholics.

    Faithful to the Catechism and to Jesus



    quote=Jakkass;63665325]Graces7: If you genuinely take the stance you do, I wonder why you are a member of the Roman Catholic Church at all. Surely there are opportunities to pursue the Gospel elsewhere.

    If I had that much distrust in the clergy, I probably if I were Roman Catholic have left by now.

    I can't help but think that it is sad to think that people are abusing the burning of a cathedral to pursue external agendas.[/quote]


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    #75
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    lumpynomore wrote: »
    To be honest, all I see from some posters in this thread is an oppertunity to bash the church and clergy. I'm not a practising catholic but I have cherised memories of St.Mel's and however it burned down, I'm upset at it's loss.


    I don't condone abuse of any child, be it at the hands of the clergy. a stranger or a so-called loved one. So when you supporting those touched by the horror of abuse don't confine it to one sector or use it to "big yourself up" on a forum.

    Religion like everything else is a choice, no-one can dictate to another. Some use buildings to worship, others don't need more than a quiet moment in the day.

    My sympathy to all, who like myself, mourn a beautiful cherished part of Longford town. Not a life, or major loss to some, but a loss nonetheless.


    I thought it was a beautiful building as well. Nice statues and stones.


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    #76
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'd be fairly certain they have some insurance on that building.

    I was thinking it could have been an insurance scam and that the priest forgot to blow out some of the candles resulting in the "accidental" burning of the beautiful building.


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    #77
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Someone mentioned today that by law that Church, like any other, was heavily insured.

    More than enough to rebuild.

    So if they ask for money now - and there are addresses online already and money pouring in?

    Yet another scam? This needs addressing.

    Sadly as you will see if you read back, many will give..

    Very recently the Galway Poor Clares appealed for money to the public to renovate their reception area; and it poured in.. even though the Order is dying out.

    Because people think they are giving to God when they give to the Church.

    More brainwashing sadly.


    Johnny Giles wrote: »
    If any priest started begging for money I don't think anyone would give it. It would drive the few remaining faithfuls out of the place for good.


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    #78
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    They are already doing so and this is what they always do.

    Money and power have corrupted them.

    They never dip into their funds - period.

    The worst example is re Mother Teresa, which is why the beatification process has stalled.

    http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/

    Ask google also and youtube.

    And remember what the true Church is; not the abuses therein, and fight to regain that purity and integrity if you truly love Holy Mother Church.

    This Christmas fire is deeply symbolic; the Church crashing and burning.
    Spencer Lively Villa wrote: »
    I know little about the issue itself or the developments in the aftermath of the destruction of the building, but will the Church have the cheek to ask the public for money towards a restoration fund? Surely they'll just dip into their vast sums of wealth in order to rebuild the cathedral?


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    #79
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    This is so hard to read; read the book of Nehemiah.

    How can any cathedral be "far removed" from this issue?

    We feel for the loss; but it has happened. Ireland is full of the ruins of Churches where all these things happened.

    Why despair if the Faith is the Catholic faith in Jesus?

    That is a most unhealthy thing, to despair over a fire..
    MDFM wrote: »
    and i thought this thread was about the loss of our beautiful cathedral..where some of us have spent a huge portion of our lives thro the normal passages of life - births/marriages/funerals..communions/confirmations and so on..
    this is a huge huge personal loss to some of us and is so far removed from the abuse scandals..
    so many people i know are in despair at the loss of this beautiful part of longford and i'm in sympathy with them as i'm sharing their grief..its a huge shock to the community and i hope we can restore it to its former glory eventually.


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    #80
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Johnny Giles wrote: »
    I was thinking it could have been an insurance scam and that the priest forgot to blow out some of the candles resulting in the "accidental" burning of the beautiful building.

    What benefit would that have been? The Vatican has plenty of money.

    Perhaps using Ockham's Razor would be most pragmatic: Probably an electrical fault, and I'm awaiting the fire officers report and the Garda report.


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    #81
    egan007
    Registered Users Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭egan007


    Graces7 wrote: »
    This is so hard to read; read the book of Nehemiah.

    How can any cathedral be "far removed" from this issue?

    We feel for the loss; but it has happened. Ireland is full of the ruins of Churches where all these things happened.

    Why despair if the Faith is the Catholic faith in Jesus?

    That is a most unhealthy thing, to despair over a fire..

    Graces7 are you for real?

    Your comments are the most wack sh1t i've read i a long time - and i've just finished fear and loathing in las vegas.


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    #82
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Graces7 wrote: »
    What a complete non sequitur this is.. ..... Are you saying that we should approve and condone abuse of children or any other crime committed by clergy ; yes I am Catholic; yet I deplore and am disgusted at rhe present corruption in the Irish Church; as is Archbishop Martin, the Holy Father and every other true Catholic.

    I never said you should.

    If I was sure that there was only 1 member of clergy I could trust in my church (non-Catholic) I'd be reconsidering my options and finding a new way to express my Christianity. That's all I'm saying. Do you really believe there is only 1 member of clergy that wasn't involved in this abuse?
    Graces7 wrote: »
    Are you defending crime and sin?

    No. I'm actually saying that this burning if an arson is royally unacceptable. Likewise, child abuse is royally unacceptable, one wrong doesn't make the other acceptable.
    Graces7 wrote: »
    This too is very suspect indeed; the pot calling the kettle black .. Passing the buck...Can you really not see that is is far, far worse for a Catholic Priest to abuse than for a secular person? And that also many of the seculars who abuse were themselves abused by our clergy?

    I think it's especially wrong that any Christian irrespective of whether they were ordained do this. My point is that child abuse seems to be a societal problem in general rather than just a church problem.
    Graces7 wrote: »
    If we who profess the gospel live impure lives and condone sin?

    When have I argued for condoning sin?
    Graces7 wrote: »
    If priests speak words they act against? Vowed celibates raping children.

    Celibacy is one theological difficulty I have when assessing this. In both the Aaronite priesthood, and in the Pauline church it was acceptable for ministers to have wives.
    Graces7 wrote: »
    How we wound the heart of Jesus then.

    I agree. Does this make destroying a religious community a good thing?
    Graces7 wrote: »
    Faithful to the Catechism and to Jesus

    Good. I personally would like to see some reform, but how are people so certain that this is arson?


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    #83
    egan007
    Registered Users Posts: 2,934 ✭✭✭egan007


    Another wackjob.
    Dogma lovers should head over to the Christianity forum.
    This is not a religous discussion.

    It'a a burning bush Building


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    #84
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    egan007 wrote: »
    It'a a burning bush Building

    I agree with you. I think people should lay off attaching child abuse to it until we have evidence.

    I'd like it if you didn't refer to me as a wackjob though :)


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    #85
    truthisfree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭truthisfree


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Speaking here as a historian researching a book on this decade in the Irish Catholic Church with a lot of inside information..

    Also as a good Catholic... who seeks to follow the teachings of the Church and of course of Jesus Christ, our Founder.

    So far, it is only Dublin that has been investigated.

    There is no diocese in Ireland where there has been no abuse.

    All the Bishops always knew what was going on , as did almost all the priests.

    If the nationwide audit goes ahead, this will be seen

    What some of us are, along with Archbishop Martin in his Christmas homily, are trying to say is that we need in Ireland to take a close and honest look at our faith now.

    The phrase he and others use is that we need to return to Christian values.

    Nowhere does our Catechism advocate spending huge sums on buildings.

    It does advocate caring for the poor and hungry; because that is the teaching of Jesus; Who of course preached in the open and in the ruined temple at Jerusalem

    It seems thus ???? to know that in every city, there are homeless sleeping in the porticos of vast Churches.

    This year there have been dozens of Church renovations at huge cost. Items like new floors in two churches of African river stone; as if we don't have stone in Ireland and jobs needed here.

    What is happening is that somehow we are separating "Church" from the realities of life our people are facing.

    Many have of course been damaged by abuse, and damaged people do bad things.

    It is not right of course. But cause and effect.

    And at the end of the day, we each choose what we spend our money on. Your freedom

    Mine to pour every cent from book sales and all else I can raise to feed the homeless; see Matthew 18

    It is of course sad when a building like this burns.Not a good thing at all; but it has happened.

    Some years ago a large and famous church in Canada burned to the ground.

    There were, as there are here, many other churches nearby, but people said they did not want to go there.

    That church was rebuilt at a cost of many, many million $$$

    Then they wanted a new organ; another 5 million.

    Canada has as many homeless as America.

    Surely if we are truly Catholic or other Christian we will look closely at priorities, at the Catechism, at the teachings of Jesus?

    That we go to Mass matters; matters not where? Does that not then verge on idolatry?

    it is of course up to you

    But Jesus is more than a buidling?
    Loyalty is to Him above all

    And to call people names for quoting the teachings of Jesus makes one see what is happening here in Ireland.


    You have given me a whole new angle on my research; thank you! wahbe

    Good post and good luck with the book.


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    #86
    neaideabh
    Registered Users Posts: 534 ✭✭✭neaideabh


    So any word on how it started yet???


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    #87
    truthisfree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭truthisfree


    neaideabh wrote: »
    So any word on how it started yet???
    Apart from them knowing that it started at the boiler, no. I will have news tomorrow or day after at latest.


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    #88
    Shewhomustbe...
    Registered Users Posts: 484 ✭✭Shewhomustbe...


    I'm not long living in Longford, coming up to six years, so I wouldn't have the same memories or emotional connection to the building as people in the town/county, in fact I'd never even been in the building (not a Catholic, though if I'd known about the museum I'd have paid it a visit)

    Being truthful I suspected arson when I initially heard about the fire, especially considered how it desimated the entire building, it probably was something else that started it though.

    While I know it will be rebuilt I don't think it should be the people in the community that have to pay for it to be done. It was a building of worship and not someone's home (depending on how you look at that theory!) and since the Church is not short a penny or too, and of course with the fact it was insured, it was be utterly disgraceful for them to ask people struggling to put there hands in their pocket.


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    #89
    Johnny Giles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭Johnny Giles


    Shewhomustbe... wrote: »
    it was be utterly disgraceful for them to ask people struggling to put there hands in their pocket.

    It is. Why doesn't God reconstruct it with his magical powers eh?


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    #90
    MDFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭MDFM


    Graces7 wrote: »
    This is so hard to read; read the book of Nehemiah.

    How can any cathedral be "far removed" from this issue?

    We feel for the loss; but it has happened. Ireland is full of the ruins of Churches where all these things happened.

    Why despair if the Faith is the Catholic faith in Jesus?

    That is a most unhealthy thing, to despair over a fire..

    Because, and i find it unusual to have to explain this...the cathedral is a building, if u havent already noticed that is..
    Would u not despair if you home was burnt down..or would that also be unhealthy..?
    what a load of b..


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    #91
    MDFM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭MDFM


    egan007 wrote: »
    Graces7 are you for real?

    Your comments are the most wack sh1t i've read i a long time - and i've just finished fear and loathing in las vegas.[/quote]

    i 2nd that.


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