Why don't Christians Kill their Children?

lmaopml · 14-12-2009 04:13PM

I would defo question my sanity Liam if I had a 'vision' of someone telling me to do something that is not consistent with my Christian God. That would be the bar we set ourselves that we understand the nature of God by his will...

If they weren't consistent with the Christian God, then they are not my God....and yes, defo I would need a shrink...and a new pair of knickers.

I know judging by the lovely pic that flamed diver put up that you think it is all sown up in a nutshell in a few sentences....Unfortunately, there is far more thought and learning goes into having faith in God, and understanding all the events between those lines...

...but I understand this is the AA forum.

I hope I've helped somewhat anyway

As always, I enjoyed chatting, now I have to go feed and wash my children like pretty much every other Christian does :rolleyes:

Flamed Diving · 14-12-2009 04:14PM

PDN wrote: »

I didn't watch the video because I rarely watch online videos, and because I don't need to watch the video to answer Malty's question.

Christian don't kill their children because that would be murder, and muder is a sin and, to most of us, unthinkable. The issue of whether the murdered person goes to heaven or not is totally irrelevant to the issue of whether it is wrong to murder someone.

But as the videos author said, what if you were willing to commit sin and go to hell, just so you child could go to heaven? That would be his point. Perhaps you should just watch the thing, then read the discussion so far, and then comment.

Are you drunk?

Just kidding.

Flamed Diving · 14-12-2009 04:18PM

lmaopml wrote: »

I know judging by the lovely pic that flamed diver put up that you think it is all sown up in a nutshell in a few sentences....Unfortunately, there is far more thought and learning goes into having faith in God, and understanding all the events between those lines...

I think much of the "stuff in-between" merely serves to cloud what could be otherwise read concisely, if one didn't want it all to be true so very badly.

Sam Vimes · 14-12-2009 04:22PM

lmaopml wrote: »

I would defo question my sanity Liam if I had a 'vision' of someone telling me to do something that is not consistent with my Christian God.

God ordered Abraham to kill his son, ordered the Israelites to kill many a child and made a deal with someone that he would provide military victory if the guy sacrificed the first thing to come out of his house when he arrived back from battle, knowing full well that it would be his daughter. If there's one thing that's consistent with the god of the bible, it's instructions to kill children

PDN · 14-12-2009 04:23PM

Flamed Diving wrote: »

But as the videos author said, what if you were willing to commit sin and go to hell, just so you child could go to heaven? That would be his point. Perhaps you should just watch the thing, then read the discussion so far, and then comment.

Are you drunk?

Just kidding.

Why watch a video that is obviously crap? The question is stupid.

As a parent I have more ambition for my child than that she simply makes it to heaven. She has the potential to be a preacher and lead others to Christ, she has the potential to discover a cure for cancer or for AIDS. God put her on the face of this planet for a reason, and I would be doing her and God a great diservice, as well as proving that my Christianity is nothing but a sham, if I killed her.

Sam Vimes · 14-12-2009 04:27PM

PDN wrote: »

Why watch a video that is obviously crap? The question is stupid.

As a parent I have more ambition for my child than that she simply makes it to heaven. She has the potential to be a preacher and lead others to Christ, she has the potential to discover a cure for cancer or for AIDS. God put her on the face of this planet for a reason, and I would be doing her and God a great diservice, as well as proving that my Christianity is nothing but a sham, if I killed her.

But since everything is part of God's plan, if you kill her is that not part of god's plan?

PDN · 14-12-2009 04:31PM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

But since everything is part of God's plan, if you kill her is that not part of god's plan?

I think you're confusing Christianity with Islam. The Bible makes it clear that not everything that happens is parts of God's plan.

Best of wishes taking this to the Islam forum.

Sam Vimes · 14-12-2009 04:38PM

PDN wrote: »

I think you're confusing Christianity with Islam. The Bible makes it clear that not everything that happens is parts of God's plan.

Best of wishes taking this to the Islam forum.

Right so when I hear people say things like "everything happens for a reason" or asking why god would allow something bad to happen to them or generally talking about god's plan or using phrases like "god works in myterious ways" to explain things that appear horrific, it's not necessarily that this horrific event had some underlying greater purpose as part of god's plan, it might well just be a horrific thing that happened for no reason and that god had no intention of allowing to happen?

Does god have a plan at all? The very idea that we can do things that go against god's plan seems to negate the idea that there is a plan. How can the plans of an omnipotent being not succeed? If god has a plan for your daughter how can you possibly kill her and if you can't kill her, do you have free will?

Flamed Diving · 14-12-2009 04:40PM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Right so when I hear people say things like "everything happens for a reason" or asking why god would allow something bad to happen to them or generally talking about god's plan or using phrases like "god works in myterious ways" to explain things that appear horrific, it's not necessarily that this horrific event had some underlying greater purpose as part of god's plan, it might well just be a horrific thing that happened for no reason and that god had no intention of allowing to happen?

Does god have a plan at all? The very idea that we can do things that go against god's plan seems to negate the idea that there is a plan. How can the plans of an omnipotent being not succeed? If god has a plan for your daughter how can you possibly kill her and if you can't kill her, do you have free will?

This reminds me of the often-quoted:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

PDN · 14-12-2009 04:45PM

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Right so when I hear people say things like "everything happens for a reason" or asking why god would allow something bad to happen to them or generally talking about god's plan or using phrases like "god works in myterious ways" to explain things that appear horrific, it's not necessarily that this horrific event had some underlying greater purpose as part of god's plan, it might well just be a horrific thing that happened for no reason and that god had no intention of allowing to happen?

Well, I can hardly be responsible for what people say, can I? People talk a load of crap all the time.

If someone's kids gets mown down by a drunken driver, then it might make them feel better to say it was all for a reason - but it is not a Christian perspective. Their child died because some selfish git chose to drink and drive and so inflicted misery on others.

Does god have a plan at all? The very idea that we can do things that go against god's plan seems to negate the idea that there is a plan. How can the plans of an omnipotent being not succeed? If god has a plan for your daughter how can you possibly kill her and if you can't kill her, do you have free will?

God gives us free will, and we can use that free will to make stuff happen that was never part of God's plan. That is a pretty basic tenet of both Judaism and Christianity. I doubt, however, if this discussion will go very far, since a lot of you chaps seem to have great difficulty with the concept of free will.

liamw · 14-12-2009 04:54PM

PDN wrote: »

I doubt, however, if this discussion will go very far, since a lot of you chaps seem to have great difficulty with the concept of free will.

The discussion usually doesn't go very far off becuase you delete the post and infract anybody that brings it up. You still haven't shown me how omniscience and free will are compatible? I guess we're all too dumb to understand it..

Sam Vimes · 14-12-2009 04:56PM

PDN wrote: »

Well, I can hardly be responsible for what people say, can I? People talk a load of crap all the time.

If someone's kids gets mown down by a drunken driver, then it might make them feel better to say it was all for a reason - but it is not a Christian perspective. Their child died because some selfish git chose to drink and drive and so inflicted misery on others.

God gives us free will, and we can use that free will to make stuff happen that was never part of God's plan. That is a pretty basic tenet of both Judaism and Christianity. I doubt, however, if this discussion will go very far, since a lot of you chaps seem to have great difficulty with the concept of free will.

Right so if we can do whatever we want and if people can kill others for whom god had plans and if disasters can happen which wipe out vast numbers of people for whom god had plans, in what way does god have a plan? How can something be a plan if you do nothing to ensure that it happens?

And god is in the unique position of knowing how the universe will play out from start to finish. Surely he knows in advance whether or not his plan for someone will succeed? Seems odd to make a plan knowing in advance with 100% certainty that it will fail?

Are natural disasters part of god's plan, as in is it just things humans do using their free will that can go against the plan?

How is this idea compatible with miracles? Seemingly god intervenes at certain intervals to change the course of events, presumably to cause his plans to succeed, why would he do it some times but not others? Are some of his plans more important than others? Or again is it only plans that have not been brought to the point of failure through the use of free will that he doesn't intervene in?

Turtwig · 14-12-2009 04:56PM

PDN wrote: »

Why watch a video that is obviously crap? The question is stupid.

That's quite a statement, you didn't even watch the video and have dismissed it offhand for being crap.

PDN, I wouldn't have posted the video if I thought it was crap (which was similar to my initial dismissive reaction but because I'd seen other videos by the poster I showed a little faith in his absurd question and decided to watch it). Please watch it before dismissing it.

Naz_st · 14-12-2009 05:00PM

PDN wrote: »

God gives us free will, and we can use that free will to make stuff happen that was never part of God's plan.

So God has a plan, but is powerless to stop us mere mortals from fecking it up? Seems a far cry from the all-powerful God most religious people refer to?

Turtwig · 14-12-2009 05:01PM

PDN wrote: »

She has the potential to be a preacher and lead others to Christ

She also has the potential to take people away from Christ.

Flamed Diving · 14-12-2009 05:02PM

liamw wrote: »

The discussion usually doesn't go very far off becuase you delete the post and infract anybody that brings it up. You still haven't shown me how omniscience and free will are compatible? I guess we're all too dumb to understand it..

as was said earlier:

Sophistry... *mumble mumble*... exegesis... *something or other* hermeneutics... *so on and so forth*... ergo, my understanding of the Bible is correct. You can't prove that my God isn't real.

Turtwig · 14-12-2009 05:04PM

Guys can we leave "free will" out, unless it is directly related to a point made in the video's argument.

InReality · 14-12-2009 05:04PM

I think there is no logical reason why they don't.

If you take that kids will go straight to heaven if you kill them, then that logically has to be better than the chance that they will not go to heaven when they are grown up.

Its the same basic logic which was actually used to kill people during the spanish inqusition.

Sam Vimes · 14-12-2009 05:09PM

InReality wrote: »

I think there is no logical reason why they don't.

If you take that kids will go straight to heaven if you kill them, then that logically has to be better than the chance that they will not go to heaven when they are grown up.

Its the same basic logic which was actually used to kill people during the spanish inqusition.

And at the Salem witch trials afaik

Joey the lips · 14-12-2009 05:12PM

Watched the video have to say am facinated. I honestly dont have an answer. I never considered this aspect tbh but then again i am off the belief that life is purgatory and death is salvation:rolleyes:

So i really will have to this of this....

sink · 14-12-2009 05:14PM

God is an omnipotent being that created the universe and everything in it, has a plan for humanity, but in order for it to accomplish it he must suspend his omnipotence and grant us humans free will.

Surely if he can't accomplish his plan without granting humans free will he is not omnipotent? (serious question)

dan_d · 14-12-2009 05:14PM

Because that would be murder and regardless of religion, murder is wrong.

No offense, but that's a silly question.It's an argument for the sake of an argument. I haven't and won't watch the video - it's time from my life I won't get back.

Do you question the Koran, or the beliefs of the Hindus in the same way? Out of simple curiousity.I'm not a fervent Christian, but I do think that I'm entitled to my beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is entitled to their beliefs - as long as they don't start interfering with everyone else as a result (there's where I run into trouble)

Sam Vimes · 14-12-2009 05:18PM

dan_d wrote: »

Because that would be murder and regardless of religion, murder is wrong.

Even murder to achieve a greater good, such as ensuring a place in heaven for your children?

dan_d wrote: »

Do you question the Koran, or the beliefs of the Hindus in the same way? Out of simple curiousity.

We don't live in countries where those are the majority beliefs but yes we do question them. You are entitled to your beliefs but that doesn't mean you are entitled to have nobody point out to you where they may be flawed or inconsistent.

Turtwig · 14-12-2009 05:20PM

dan_d wrote: »

Because that would be murder and regardless of religion, murder is wrong.

No offense, but that's a silly question.It's an argument for the sake of an argument. I haven't and won't watch the video - it's time from my life I won't get back.

Do you question the Koran, or the beliefs of the Hindus in the same way? Out of simple curiousity.I'm not a fervent Christian, but I do think that I'm entitled to my beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, everyone is entitled to their beliefs - as long as they don't start interfering with everyone else as a result (there's where I run into trouble)

The same argument can be made at Islam.
Don't know enough about hinduism.

The point of the video is not committing murder. It'd whether a Christian would kill their offspring if they knew that meant they were guaranteed save haven for all eternity. Heck the video asks why don't they kill their neighbour's children too, that way saving they'd also save their neighbour from the awful act of committing murder increasing his/her chances of salvation - one person makes a sacrifice to save many.

I'm considering asking the mods to delete post that didn't watch the video...just not yet though.
Because I'm sorry but some posters here have responded to the strawman. Please at least understand the argument before replying off intuition to it.

robindch · 14-12-2009 05:55PM

PDN wrote: »

God gives us free will, and we can use that free will to make stuff happen that was never part of God's plan. That is a pretty basic tenet of both Judaism and Christianity. I doubt, however, if this discussion will go very far, since a lot of you chaps seem to have great difficulty with the concept of free will.

The principal difficulty -- if not impossibility -- lies in getting a religious person to produce a definition that doesn't flatly contradict some other fanciful religious proposition.

PDN wrote: »

God put her on the face of this planet for a reason, and I would be doing her and God a great diservice, as well as proving that my Christianity is nothing but a sham, if I killed her.

Yes, but what if it's part of god's plan for you to kill her?

In the OT, there are plenty of stories of people being killed, and one must assume that god is happy to have humans do his killing for him.

I'm asking because, recently, I read Under the Banner of Heaven, an excellent book which investigated (a) the gruesome murder of a woman and her infant daughter by a man who believed that he was carrying out god's plan for him and (b) the (frankly, much more interesting) story of the early history of Mormonism.

Zombrex · 14-12-2009 06:08PM

These questions always get the backs of Christians up because they highlight an obvious moral flaw in the notion of a better life after death

The question is really Would you sin to ensure eternal life for your children

Zombrex · 14-12-2009 06:14PM

PDN wrote: »

Christian don't kill their children because that would be murder, and muder is a sin and, to most of us, unthinkable. The issue of whether the murdered person goes to heaven or not is totally irrelevant to the issue of whether it is wrong to murder someone.

Yes but that isn't the issue. Everyone has already agreed that the parent has committed a sin and thus will wind up in hell.

The issue is why would you not do this if it meant you ensured eternal life for your children in heaven, particularly since the only person you harm in all this is God (an immortal being who can't be harmed).

The parent is sacrificing their place in heaven for their children's, which would seem like a courageous thing to do for your children.

If she was pushing her child out of the way of an on coming bus would people be saying Nope, you need to let your children lead their own lives and make their own decisions?

Would you curse God's name (insert any other sin against God here) if it made sure your child went to heaven?

Joey the lips · 14-12-2009 06:16PM

Wicknight wrote: »

These questions always get the backs of Christians up because they highlight an obvious moral flaw in the notion of a better life after death

The question is really Would you sin to ensure eternal life for your children

This is a poor notion after all jesus died on the cross to clense us of our sin.... So on a technacality he gave his life for us already. The bible also teaches us to preserve life.

This is always a problem for me. Many christians( Catholics prod etc) run around and preach the bible. Athiests are very critical of this. The funny thing is athiests generally behave about there "Non faith" the way a christian behaves about his faith. "Preserving and protecting" instead of opening the mind!

Christian logic. There is a god

Athiest god. There is no god!

Peace makers logic. Hi god if your there forgive me for my lack of understanding. Perhaps a fishes and loves inspired event my help!

God: I can only move so many statutes before I break my back

Turtwig · 14-12-2009 06:17PM

Wicknight wrote: »

These questions always get the backs of Christians up because they highlight an obvious moral flaw in the notion of a better life after death

The question is really Would you sin to ensure eternal life for your children

No actually it's closer to:
Why wouldn't you sin if it would ensure eternal life for your children (and other peoples' children).

CodeMonkey · 14-12-2009 06:21PM

Most Christians are just following the teachings and actions of their immediate leaders like the local parish priest. They're happy with someone else's interpretation of gods will and would go along with the teachings if it doesn't conflict with the sense of morality ingrained in them from the society they live in.

I'd think a significant number of christians would kill their chrildren if the society they live in has no problems with taking a life and that their religious leaders tells them it's gods will.

Why don't Christians Kill their Children?

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