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Civil Service vs. Public Service

  • 04-12-2009 06:50AM
    #1
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭


    Right this distinction needs to be made clear.

    The Civil Service is effectively the official bureaucracy. They are the Clerical Officers, Executive Officers etc who are attached directly to a Government Department. There are also civil servants in other areas like An Garda Síochána and similar but they are not typical workers in said organisations (i.e. not Gardaí etc).

    The Public Service is effectively everyone else in the Public Sector and pretty much the normal public servant for someone to meet or deal with. This includes Teachers, Doctors, Nurses, Gardaí, Librarians etc et al.


    Someone more familiar than I with the exact ins and outs of the Government Agencies (the CSO etc) about the average employee's exact designation (I think most/all CSO employees are Civil Servants but I could be wrong) but those are the rough outlines of the difference.


    This is particularly of interest with regard to the Comptroller & Auditor General report on sick leave that's been bounced around recently: http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/69_Managing_Sickness_Absences.pdf

    It's about the Civil Service not the Public Service!


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Nesf

    Yes you are generally correct

    The Civil Service is generally regarded as staff in the Central Departments (i.e. Justice, Education etc) as well as other State organisations like the CSO.

    There are also Civil Servants on secondment in many semi-state organisations and other such bodies.

    It generally makes up around 10% of the Public Service numbers wise.


  • #3
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    nesf wrote: »
    It's about the Civil Service not the Public Service!

    What exactly is about the Civil Service?

    The whole where cuts should be made debate or am I missing something?

    Because if it is I disagree.

    The debate is not about who should get cuts, what is fair or any other the other fluff that is put out there.

    The fundamental issue is this: The government is spending too much money, which they cannot sustain.


  • #4
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    What exactly is about the Civil Service?

    The whole where cuts should be made debate or am I missing something?

    Because if it is I disagree.

    The debate is not about who should get cuts, what is fair or any other the other fluff that is put out there.

    The fundamental issue is this: The government is spending too much money, which they cannot sustain.

    No, the CAG report on sick leave in the Civil Sector here: http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/69_Managing_Sickness_Absences.pdf

    It was taken by people to be a report on sick leave patterns in the public sector which is incorrect.


  • #5
    S.L.F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭S.L.F


    Basically the public service deals with the public and the civil service deals with the running of the city.
    external-content.duckduckgo.com.jpg




  • #6
    Ronando
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭Ronando


    Thanks for that - an important distinction that I was aware of but was not aware of in the context of this report, which has been blanketly (is that a word?) applied to the whole public sector.

    No, of course, if you believe the civil service sample to be a representative one of the whole public sector...


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  • #7
    fartmaster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 260 ✭✭fartmaster


    nesf wrote: »
    Right this distinction needs to be made clear.

    The Civil Service is effectively the official bureaucracy. They are the Clerical Officers, Executive Officers etc who are attached directly to a Government Department. There are also civil servants in other areas like An Garda Síochána and similar but they are not typical workers in said organisations (i.e. not Gardaí etc).

    The Public Service is effectively everyone else in the Public Sector and pretty much the normal public servant for someone to meet or deal with. This includes Teachers, Doctors, Nurses, Gardaí, Librarians etc et al.


    Someone more familiar than I with the exact ins and outs of the Government Agencies (the CSO etc) about the average employee's exact designation (I think most/all CSO employees are Civil Servants but I could be wrong) but those are the rough outlines of the difference.


    This is particularly of interest with regard to the Comptroller & Auditor General report on sick leave that's been bounced around recently: http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/69_Managing_Sickness_Absences.pdf

    It's about the Civil Service not the Public Service!

    What EXACTLY is the point of this thread?

    The Civil Service is directly linked to the Public Service one could not function without the other.


  • #8
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    fartmaster wrote: »
    What EXACTLY is the point of this thread?

    Surely getting things clarified is point enough. There has been considerable ignorance, misunderstanding, and wilful distortion in many discussions in this forum.
    The Civil Service is directly linked to the Public Service one could not function without the other.

    The private sector is linked to the public sector, and one could not function without the other. That does not mean that they are the same.


  • #9
    oldyouth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,754 ✭✭✭oldyouth


    S.L.F wrote: »
    Basically the public service deals with the public and the civil service deals with the running of the city.
    What City??


  • #10
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    fartmaster wrote: »
    What EXACTLY is the point of this thread?

    To clarify exactly what Civil Service means and what Public Service means. People were mixing up the two. Obviously you can't have one without the other.


  • #11
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,414 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Why a distinction - are we to have seperate public vs private and civil vs private arguments instead?


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  • #12
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Why a distinction - are we to have seperate public vs private and civil vs private arguments instead?

    Why not? It makes about as much sense as some of the other distinctions people have been making.


  • #13
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Why a distinction - are we to have seperate public vs private and civil vs private arguments instead?

    No. The reason is that some reports are made on just the Civil Service not the whole Public Service. People get things mixed up and apply the results of the report to all of the Public Service.


  • #14
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Why a distinction - are we to have seperate public vs private and civil vs private arguments instead?

    Well said, Jimmy. IMHO there is absolutely no need for this thread at all


  • #15
    peking97
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 884 ✭✭✭peking97


    Riskymove wrote: »
    Nesf

    Yes you are generally correct

    The Civil Service is generally regarded as staff in the Central Departments (i.e. Justice, Education etc) as well as other State organisations like the CSO.

    There are also Civil Servants on secondment in many semi-state organisations and other such bodies.

    It generally makes up around 10% of the Public Service numbers wise.

    I think the important point to consider is how their salaries and pensions are funded.

    Civil Service - salaries and pensions paid from Central Funds.

    Public Service (Gardaí, Nurses etc) - also from Central Funds.

    Public Sector (RTÉ, ESB, etc) - not from Central Funds


  • #16
    S.L.F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭S.L.F


    oldyouth wrote: »
    What City??

    City...Why Dublin of course:D!!!

    I meant they are the ones who keeps the organisations (Ireland) running.

    They are the grease that keep the cogs running smoothly.

    Doubtless there are better ways to expressing it but it's the best I can think of
    external-content.duckduckgo.com.jpg




  • #17
    joolsveer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭joolsveer


    The civil service has nothing to do with the running of Dublin city. Dublin City Council is the local aurthority which looks after public administration in Dublin.


  • #18
    granturismo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,976 ✭✭✭granturismo


    Kristopherus wrote: »
    Well said, Jimmy. IMHO there is absolutely no need for this thread at all

    Agreed, this is a waste of a sticky.

    Civil Service - revenue, dept of Ag etc
    Public Service - teachers, emergency services, local authorities etc
    Semi State - ESB etc

    The CSO link to sick leave in the OP relate to Civil Servants only - fair point. In most threads 'PS' is used when referring to Public and Civil servants and I think most people understand this.


  • #19
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    A lot of posts seem to use Public and Civil service interchangably. But they are not the same thing.


  • #20
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,414 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Sinn Fein became Sinn Fein/IRA
    Public Service now the Civil/Public Service

    Is this where we are going ....?


  • #21
    moceri
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 460 ✭✭moceri


    I was quite surprised that 113,000 Public sector workers employed before 1995 will still continue to pay a reduced PRSI rate of 0.9% whilst those of us in the Private sector have to stump up at the 4% Rate.

    Why not level the playing field.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/surviving-the-recession/113000-public-servants-will-escape-prsi-hike-1962365.html


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  • #22
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    moceri wrote: »
    I was quite surprised that 113,000 Public sector workers employed before 1995 will still continue to pay a reduced PRSI rate of 0.9% whilst those of us in the Private sector have to stump up at the 4% Rate.

    Why not level the playing field.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/surviving-the-recession/113000-public-servants-will-escape-prsi-hike-1962365.html

    There's Indo journalism for you.

    Public servants who pay the lower rate of PRSI are paid a lower salary, which effectively levels the playing field. That fact is not mentioned, because it would undermine the outraged-on-behalf-of-the-public stance that makes for lurid red-top headlines. [The giveaway should have been the mentioning of "senior higher paid civil servants"; it wouldn't have the same resonance if the comment had been made about middle-aged hospital porters.]


  • #23
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,090 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    moceri wrote: »
    those of us in the Private sector have to stump up at the 4% Rate.

    Why not level the playing field.
    Your 4% entitles you to a lot more than those of us on the D1.


  • #24
    moceri
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 460 ✭✭moceri


    This evening's Six-One News bulletin: (6:40)
    View Patricia Mc Dermott, a Public Sector Worker wingeing about having to forego this year's Foreign Holiday and unable to afford Private Health Insurance this year.

    Welcome to Planet Reality!!!!!!!

    Some people would be grateful to be in your position. They are struggling to put food on their Table and heat their Homes.


  • #25
    nico90
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭nico90


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Why a distinction - are we to have seperate public vs private and civil vs private arguments instead?

    Divide & Conquer!


  • #26
    ghost_ie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 545 ✭✭✭ghost_ie


    moceri wrote: »
    I was quite surprised that 113,000 Public sector workers employed before 1995 will still continue to pay a reduced PRSI rate of 0.9% whilst those of us in the Private sector have to stump up at the 4% Rate.

    Why not level the playing field.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/surviving-the-recession/113000-public-servants-will-escape-prsi-hike-1962365.html

    Before 1995 certain sectors of the Public Service paid a reduced rate of PRSI but they weren't given any choice in the matter, and they found their entitlements were reduced. I know of two individuals, one of whom worked in the signal engineers' department in CIE and the other was a biochemist in Guinnesses. Both took early retirement in the 80's. The latter was entitled to claim social welfare on top of his pension whilst the former wasn't as he had not paid the full PRSI. The CIE employee was never given a choice as to whether he paid the full PRSI or not - if he had been given the choice he would have paid the full stamp but was not allowed to do so.


  • #27
    S.L.F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 533 ✭✭✭S.L.F


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    There's Indo journalism for you.

    Whatever it is it's not journalism.
    external-content.duckduckgo.com.jpg




  • #28
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    S.L.F wrote: »
    Whatever it is it's not journalism.

    I like to use oxymorons.


  • #29
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,414 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    nico90 wrote: »
    Divide & Conquer!

    So we are agreed now. The civil service is the one that both private sector and public will rant against. It will be difficult seeing as they are, well, so civil....


  • #30
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,233 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63588072&postcount=118

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



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  • #31
    freefromgov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭freefromgov


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    So we are agreed now. The civil service is the one that both private sector and public will rant against. It will be difficult seeing as they are, well, so civil....

    :mad::(:eek::o


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