An Irish identity

metrovelvet · 02-12-2009 1:03pm

Notorious wrote: »

Some Irish people still have a chip on their shoulder due to our entangled history.

You know what. I sort of get it but it doesnt make it right. Just like in the US there are african americans who have a chip on their shoulder about white oppression and slavery etc etc, and I have been on the receiving end of that, with the "irish are racist", the boston cops, blah blah blah, and how we should be paying for it. My response is "hey. my parents didnt even come to this country until the 1970s. We had nothing to do with any of that. And yet you want me to pay for the sins of a past that had nothing to do with me or my family." I see the Irish chip about the Brits similarly. Its not fair to take it out on people who had nothing to do with it. It just makes you a bigot.

schween · 02-12-2009 1:08pm

In Spain some people ask if I'm English (2 people have told me I've an English accent in the last few weeks!) and when I say I'm Irish they become apologetic and awkward. I tell them I don't care, relax!

Then I've had a good few people ask me if I hate the British...to which I reply no! Although sometimes I wind them up

Zulu · 02-12-2009 2:34pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

They get offended by it because they hate the British. Right.

Wrong. I don't get offended because I "hate the British".

What you are doing wrong there is picking a subsection, a minority, and judging the majority by that.

Nevyn · 02-12-2009 2:47pm

This funny how any of the gaelic nations react the same.

I an NOT english I am Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Cornish/Manx.

Each has it's own culture and each chaffes at being considered to be english,
even if to outsiders there appears to be bugger all difference. It is the way of tribal nations.

miec · 02-12-2009 4:26pm

I think Metrovelvet that you have purposefully been insulting by referring to Ireland as a secondary nation and generally coming out with some extremely insulting comments with the aim of riling people.

You have referred to Ireland as a secondary nation, although you have not stated categorically to whom? One is led to assume that you mean England.

Its still a derivative culture. It just adopted everything British, its political structure, etc and stuck Irish names on it.

First of all, prior to becoming a free state, British laws, language, culture and religion was forced upon the Irish, that is a fact. Once Ireland became a free state we modified many aspects of British culture and kept those aspects that work.

[FONT=&quot]Hating the english is part of what it means to be Irish? Isnt that letting your enemy define you? [/FONT]

That is a gross simplification and you know it. That does not define Irish identity, you are looking to goad people. Interestingly though, when England had colonised Ireland, it was the English who needed to define themselves against us, by making us to be inferior and subhuman, referring to us as either comical paddy like people or apes. Our post colonial culture has a lot more in common with Africa, India and other post colonial nations than England.

You bandied about the terms post colonialism but you do not define what it is or expand upon your arguement, you just throw out terms and statements to deliberately wind people up and sadly your posts come across as ill-informed and coming from a rather lunatic mind who knows very little about Irish history.

Whilst culture is fluid and adapts to new circumstances we have had our own culture for a long time, yes it harks back to the past but then so does British idenitity, they continue to use a monarchy, celebrate Chaucer and Shakespeare, are they not doing the same.

It is true whether we like it or not our identity is bound with England. Prior to colonisation, we each had our seperate cultures but when England colonised Ireland, we were forced to adapt many aspects of that culture whether we wanted to or not. Other factors helped to erode our language, ways of living and so forth such as the famine and mass emigration but most of it occurrred because one nation imposed itself upon another. Now why do you think it needs to do that? It says more about the oppressor than the oppressed nation.

Mass emigration created a diaspora class in America, the UK and other places so it is hard for those of us with dual nationalities to truly define what nationality we are, I have this difficulty because I was born in the UK of Irish parents, and raised in both countries. I am one of many.

Ireland has only had its freedom since 1921 and during that time we are trying to define and find out who we are as a nation, during that time we have had civil war and poverty for a large proportion of it, then the activities of the IRA and the Troubles in the North. It is only in recent times that we as a nation are developing some sort of confidence in ourselves, which may account for the prickiliness when people assume we are British. Ireland is a nation, like Seahorse points out, it is neither secondary or primary, it is a nation, simple as. On a personal note, and I think many will agree with me, that we do not take kindly to jumped up, nasty, ill informed comments that seek to bring down that newly developed confidence.

Zulu · 02-12-2009 4:33pm

miec wrote: »

I think Metrovelvet that you have purposefully been insulting by referring to Ireland as a secondary nation and generally coming out with some extremely insulting comments with the aim of riling people.

You have referred to Ireland as a secondary nation, although you have not stated categorically to whom? One is led to assume that you mean England.

First of all, prior to becoming a free state, British laws, language, culture and religion was forced upon the Irish, that is a fact. Once Ireland became a free state we modified many aspects of British culture and kept those aspects that work.

That is a gross simplification and you know it. That does not define Irish identity, you are looking to goad people. Interestingly though, when England had colonised Ireland, it was the English who needed to define themselves against us, by making us to be inferior and subhuman, referring to us as either comical paddy like people or apes. Our post colonial culture has a lot more in common with Africa, India and other post colonial nations than England.

You bandied about the terms post colonialism but you do not define what it is or expand upon your arguement, you just throw out terms and statements to deliberately wind people up and sadly your posts come across as ill-informed and coming from a rather lunatic mind who knows very little about Irish history.

Whilst culture is fluid and adapts to new circumstances we have had our own culture for a long time, yes it harks back to the past but then so does British idenitity, they continue to use a monarchy, celebrate Chaucer and Shakespeare, are they not doing the same.

It is true whether we like it or not our identity is bound with England. Prior to colonisation, we each had our seperate cultures but when England colonised Ireland, we were forced to adapt many aspects of that culture whether we wanted to or not. Other factors helped to erode our language, ways of living and so forth such as the famine and mass emigration but most of it occurrred because one nation imposed itself upon another. Now why do you think it needs to do that? It says more about the oppressor than the oppressed nation.

Mass emigration created a diaspora class in America, the UK and other places so it is hard for those of us with dual nationalities to truly define what nationality we are, I have this difficulty because I was born in the UK of Irish parents, and raised in both countries. I am one of many.

Ireland has only had its freedom since 1921 and during that time we are trying to define and find out who we are as a nation, during that time we have had civil war and poverty for a large proportion of it, then the activities of the IRA and the Troubles in the North. It is only in recent times that we as a nation are developing some sort of confidence in ourselves, which may account for the prickiliness when people assume we are British. Ireland is a nation, like Seahorse points out, it is neither secondary or primary, it is a nation, simple as. On a personal note, and I think many will agree with me, that we do not take kindly to jumped up, nasty, ill informed comments that seek to bring down that newly developed confidence.

Excellent post.

#15 · 02-12-2009 8:39pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

They get offended by it because they hate the British. Right. So it points to their own bigotry.

Hold on, have you read my opening post at all?

I don't hate Britain or the British at all.

How does that fit with your thesis that only bigots would get offended?

#15 · 02-12-2009 8:49pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

What I dont get is why Irish people get offended by being mistaken for British.

If you don't get it then why are you commenting so extensively on it?

I know why some Irish people get offended.

But I started the thread because I am not sure why I got offended when that German girl asked me the question.

I was not offended on any historical basis, I have studied Irish history extensively (formally and informally). I have no hang-ups in that regard. I don't subscribe to the ''we were viciously oppressed'' theory. I'm aware of the Irish role in the British Empire too.

After reading this thread, I think I was offended (for lack of a better word) because the girl assumed I was British when she heard me speaking English.

To be fair to her though, if I heard someone speaking German, I would probably assume they were from Germany. Even though they may come from Austria.

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 10:33am

Someone had pointed to imstrongerhtan you;s post as an example of the attitiude that some Irish have against the British. I was responding to that,not your own reaction of getting offended.

When you post these things in humanities, there is an allowance for these things to become abstracted and topical. If you want people to respond only to your experience then that is what PI is for.

Why did you get offended? Would you have gotten offended if you were mistaken for American or Canadian?

ChocolateSauce · 03-12-2009 12:43pm

Zulu wrote: »

It's also worth considering that people tend to get annoyed answering the same question time and again.

This may indeed be a factor. My accent is a very strange mix of American, British and Irish (particularly south Dublin and Donegal, thanks to the company I keep), but almost universally the first question I get from people who tend to hate immigrants and the English is "where are you from?". Considering I was born and raised in Dublin and have never lived anywhere else, it gets very annoying and I have sometimes unfairly snapped at people who didn't deserve it.

#15 · 03-12-2009 2:22pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Why did you get offended? Would you have gotten offended if you were mistaken for American or Canadian?

I don't think I was ''offended'', annoyed is probably the better word. I did say in my previous post

I think I was offended (for lack of a better word)

I think annoyed would be a better word. I didn't take offence, but I was momentarily annoyed at the girl.

Would you have gotten offended if you were mistaken for American or Canadian?

I don't know. I would like to think not. But I would always have said that I would not have been annoyed if someone mistakenly thought I was British.
And that didn't hold true for me. So maybe I would get annoyed if someone thought I was American or Canadian.

Obviously, in the cold light of day, its an easy mistake for a foreigner to make, so I'm not that bothered. But at the time I was.

How do you explain my reaction to the question from the German girl?

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 2:23pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

This funny how any of the gaelic nations react the same.

I an NOT english I am Irish/Welsh/Scottish/Cornish/Manx.

Each has it's own culture and each chaffes at being considered to be english,
even if to outsiders there appears to be bugger all difference. It is the way of tribal nations.

Yes but people from Wales, Scotland, Cornwall [dont know what Manx is], are British, they are not English, so they couldnt be offended by being called British.

OP was mistaken for British, not English.

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 2:25pm

#15 wrote: »

I don't think I was ''offended'', annoyed is probably the better word. I did say in my previous post

I think annoyed would be a better word. I didn't take offence, but I was momentarily annoyed at the girl.

I don't know. I would like to think not. But I would always have said that I would not have been annoyed if someone mistakenly thought I was British.
And that didn't hold true for me. So maybe I would get annoyed if someone thought I was American or Canadian.

Obviously, in the cold light of day, its an easy mistake for a foreigner to make, so I'm not that bothered. But at the time I was.

How do you explain my reaction to the question from the German girl?

The reason I was asking if you would be offended if being mistaken for American or Canadian was to see if your reaction was rooting in wanting the Irishness recognised or that if it was more about the whole British thing.

Lets face it, it would be very hard for any of us to hear someone speaking arabic, French, Spanish,or Hebrew and be able to pin point what nation they are from.

Zulu · 03-12-2009 2:49pm

What? If by "any of us" you mean Irish people (or people on Boards.ie), thats rubbish. Most Europeans would readily identify a French or Spanish person.

However, I appricate that, if by "us" you mean americans, you may be correct.

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 3:19pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

The reason I was asking if you would be offended if being mistaken for American or Canadian was to see if your reaction was rooting in wanting the Irishness recognised or that if it was more about the whole British thing.

Lets face it, it would be very hard for any of us to hear someone speaking arabic, French, Spanish,or Hebrew and be able to pin point what nation they are from.

Really. So you hear someone speaking French and you will know if they are from France, Belgium or Canada?

You hear someone speaking Spanish and you know if they are from Spain or one of the many nations of south america or possibily even from the US. And you can tell if someone speaking Hebrew is Israeli or Russian Jew or from another nation?

Zulu · 03-12-2009 3:43pm

You like to jump to conclusions, don't you? I never said anything about Russians, Israelis, or South Americans.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Really. So you hear someone speaking French...

I'll know a French person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.
And I'll know a Spanish person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.

Why do you feel the need to deliberately misinterpret my posts?*

* That’s a rhetorical question to highlight what you are continually doing. I don’t particularly care for your answer.

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 3:49pm

Zulu wrote: »

You like to jump to conclusions, don't you? I never said anything about Russians, Israelis, or South Americans.
I'll know a French person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.
And I'll know a Spanish person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.

Why do you feel the need to deliberately misinterpret my posts?*

* That’s a rhetorical question to highlight what you are continually doing. I don’t particularly care for your answer.

So you hear spanish and you know whether they are from spain or venezuela?

You hear portuguese and you know if they are from brazil or portugal?

You hear French and you know what country they are from?

Zulu · 03-12-2009 3:58pm

Zulu wrote: »

You like to jump to conclusions, don't you? I never said anything about Russians, Israelis, or South Americans.
I'll know a French person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.
And I'll know a Spanish person when I meet one. Most Europeans will.

Why do you feel the need to deliberately misinterpret my posts?*

* That’s a rhetorical question to highlight what you are continually doing. I don’t particularly care for your answer.

Note:

Zulu wrote: »

It's also worth considering that people tend to get annoyed answering the same question time and again.

This annoyance gets compounded when the question is founded in ignorance.

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 4:16pm

Would you know a french canadian when you met one?

Would you know an argetinian when you met one?

Instant Karma · 03-12-2009 4:27pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Would you know a french canadian when you met one?

Would you know an argetinian when you met one?

Congratulations for completely ignoring the post on the previous page that all but destroyed your arguments and still persevering with the thread.

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 4:32pm

Instant Karma wrote: »

Congratulations for completely ignoring the post on the previous page that all but destroyed your arguments and still persevering with the thread.

Ill take that as a no, you cant identity an ecuadorian or belgian when you meet them.

#15 · 03-12-2009 4:46pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

The reason I was asking if you would be offended if being mistaken for American or Canadian was to see if your reaction was rooting in wanting the Irishness recognised or that if it was more about the whole British thing.

I know the reason why you were asking. You were checking to see if I was a bigot.

It was condescending as well as insulting.

No need to explain the insult even further.

If you read my other posts, I have already said that I have no historical hang-ups.

Thats why I started the thread, I don't have any typical anti-British attitudes that would cause me to react in such a way. You have missed the point of the thread, which is basically, how can someone who is not really patriotic, get annoyed at being mistaken for a different nationality?

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 5:01pm

#15 wrote: »

I know the reason why you were asking. You were checking to see if I was a bigot.

It was condescending as well as insulting.

No need to explain the insult even further.

If you read my other posts, I have already said that I have no historical hang-ups.

Thats why I started the thread, I don't have any typical anti-British attitudes that would cause me to react in such a way. You have missed the point of the thread, which is basically, how can someone who is not really patriotic, get annoyed at being mistaken for a different nationality?

Because they want their nationhood recogised. Its like being latin american and people always calling you "spanish" just because you speak the language. I dont think they would get upset if mistaken for Phillipino. Its the bi product of living under the shadow of another country's legacy. WHich is what I said from the start. You dont need to be patriotic to feel this frustration, you dont need to be nationalistic to feel it, your nationhood is part of your identity.

Zulu · 03-12-2009 5:09pm

If you believe that "nationhood is part of your identity", wouldn't referring to someone’s nation as a "secondary nation" then be deliberately insulting? And provocative?

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 5:37pm

I want to add to my last post, that it is not really fair on the person mistaking your identity to be peeved or offended or even off put or even slightly disturbed because how the hell are they supposed to know where you are from?

No one hear admits it but I suspect it is true, if you heard someone speaking French you would assume they are French. I dont think most people would jump to the conclusion French Canadian or Belgian. Why is that? Because France is a more prominant culture - it is primary so it is more in the forefront of people's minds.

liah · 03-12-2009 5:43pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

I want to add to my last post, that it is not really fair on the person mistaking your identity to be peeved or offended or even off put or even slightly disturbed because how the hell are they supposed to know where you are from?

No one hear admits it but I suspect it is true, if you heard someone speaking French you would assume they are French. I dont think most people would jump to the conclusion French Canadian or Belgian. Why is that? Because France is a more prominant culture - it is primary so it is more in the forefront of people's minds.

Should be able to tell by the accent, in fairness-- though I guess the most french you'd here around here is french from France so I understand the mistake.

That said, you weren't speaking about foreign language countries. You were talking about English language countries, and it is fairly easy to tell an English accent from a Scottish one or an Irish one. It gets hazy with Welsh and some parts of England, Northern Ireland with some parts of Scotland, the south of Ireland with the far east coast of Canada, and border Canada with border United States. So a bit of leeway is allowed there. But in general, it's very hard to mistake English language accents if it is your native tongue unless you're particularly ignorant.

Besides, it's not the accents people are getting upset about, I don't think. It's the assumption that Ireland is part of Britain, or that Canada and the US are the same thing, or that Ireland and Canada are living in the "shadows" of England and the US or are jealous or some other such crap. The offense comes in when you explain that you're Irish (or Canadian, in my case) and the person just fobs you off and goes "well sure they're basically the same thing anyway."

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 5:49pm

liah wrote: »

Should be able to tell by the accent, in fairness-- though I guess the most french you'd here around here is french from France so I understand the mistake.

That said, you weren't speaking about foreign language countries. You were talking about English language countries, and it is fairly easy to tell an English accent from a Scottish one or an Irish one. It gets hazy with Welsh and some parts of England, Northern Ireland with some parts of Scotland, the south of Ireland with the far east coast of Canada, and border Canada with border United States. So a bit of leeway is allowed there. But in general, it's very hard to mistake English language accents if it is your native tongue unless you're particularly ignorant.

Besides, it's not the accents people are getting upset about, I don't think. It's the assumption that Ireland is part of Britain, or that Canada and the US are the same thing, or that Ireland and Canada are living in the "shadows" of England and the US or are jealous or some other such crap. The offense comes in when you explain that you're Irish (or Canadian, in my case) and the person just fobs you off and goes "well sure they're basically the same thing anyway."

Right if its your native tongue. The girl in question was German.

And no its not always easy even in your native tongue. There are some Irish accents that do sound very anglo. And there are some accents in Canada that do sound like American ones.

I cant tell a northern irish accent from a scottish one. Not at all. And some of my mothers family who are Irish sound very English to me. If I didn't know them I probably would think they are English. [I bet your starting to think Im protestant now].

Why do you care if people think "ah sure its all the same." Who cares?

Kooli · 03-12-2009 6:00pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Yes but people from Wales, Scotland, Cornwall [dont know what Manx is], are British, they are not English, so they couldnt be offended by being called British.

OP was mistaken for British, not English.

Yes but as you said yourself this thread has grown to be about more than just the OP, so it's just as relevant as comparing the USA and Canada.

If we are proud of our culture and uniqueness (as are Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man etc.) then of course we are going to make sure people know that we are of that certain nationality.

The reason, I think, why I wouldn't be bothered if someone thought I was French, American or Australian is because
a) that rarely happens
b) it has no historical or political significance or meaning.

Whereas being called English or British does have other connotations brought about by our history.

For the Irish it's quite simple. THere was a time when we, as a nation, WERE British. We fought long and hard to change that. It changed. And that's a point of pride. Simple as that. No bigotry.

If one of the United States fought long and hard for independence from the States, don't you think that if someone said 'Are you American?' they would strongly say 'NO I'm X (and don't you forget it!)'

metrovelvet · 03-12-2009 6:06pm

Kooli wrote: »

Yes but as you said yourself this thread has grown to be about more than just the OP, so it's just as relevant as comparing the USA and Canada.

If we are proud of our culture and uniqueness (as are Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man etc.) then of course we are going to make sure people know that we are of that certain nationality.

The reason, I think, why I wouldn't be bothered if someone thought I was French, American or Australian is because
a) that rarely happens
b) it has no historical or political significance or meaning.

Whereas being called English or British does have other connotations brought about by our history.

For the Irish it's quite simple. THere was a time when we, as a nation, WERE British. We fought long and hard to change that. It changed. And that's a point of pride. Simple as that. No bigotry.

If one of the United States fought long and hard for independence from the States, don't you think that if someone said 'Are you American?' they would strongly say 'NO I'm X (and don't you forget it!)'

We were British once. I dont know of any Americans that get offended by that, but then it rarely happens.

#15 · 03-12-2009 6:22pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

We were British once. I dont know of any Americans that get offended by that, but then it rarely happens.

American and Irish situations are not really comaparable.

An Irish identity

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