The 5/3/1 Discussion Thread

Catenaccio! · 17-11-2009 12:55PM

I tend to do the big but boring routine after my top set. So typically this is 5 sets of 10 reps at 40% of my 1RM. Obviously this moves up over time but you'd be surprised how much DOMS you'd get after all that. I never usually have time for lunges or anything like that so my squat day is basically all my warm up sets, my working sets and then the big but boring sets at the end.

Sangre · 24-11-2009 09:17PM

I'm currently in cycle 1 and the weights seem quite low for me. I'm doing about 20 reps in my last set in week 2. I wonder is it because I based my max on what it was when I came back from a 2 month break. If I had trained for 2/3 weeks it may have been a lot higher.

I guess I should resist temptation to increase it beyond the stated amount.

PeakOutput · 24-11-2009 10:52PM

for me at least i am liking the lighter weights as its leting me work on my form

i also like the fact im in and out in 30/40mins have time for a swim and still feel in bits the next day

the one day i have trouble with is the shoulder press day i just cant do anywhere near the prescribed reps on unassisted dips and chins and feel like im wasting my time when i crank up the assistance on the machine but i guess as its still straining me it must be doing its job and seen as id love to be able to do 10/15 unassisted chins its the right way to go

kevpants · 24-11-2009 11:10PM

Sangre wrote: »

I'm currently in cycle 1 and the weights seem quite low for me. I'm doing about 20 reps in my last set in week 2. I wonder is it because I based my max on what it was when I came back from a 2 month break. If I had trained for 2/3 weeks it may have been a lot higher.

I guess I should resist temptation to increase it beyond the stated amount.

Safe to say it's bit light if you're getting 20 reps on your 3 day. However if you are lifting a fairly light weight at that level for say squats, the 5kg increase per cycle is quite a lot so you should be fine. It can get hard quick so you're not in bad shape I'd say.

Sangre · 25-11-2009 08:54PM

Thats what I figure, 4 cycles is 20kg which is a decent addition. I'll see how I am after the next cycle and if its still light enough I'll add 7.5kg maybe. Workouts are fairly quick and painfree at the moment.

That said, 20 rep squat was very tough and makes me question the sanity of anyone who did the 20 squat programme.

Sangre · 25-11-2009 11:45PM

Back from the gym, week 3 starts tomorrow.

I think I'm going to skip the 'deload' week for just the first cycle. Anyone think its very bad?

Inspector Coptoor · 26-11-2009 12:57AM

the deload is important.
one of the first things wendler said about the programme is its writen in a very easy to follow manner so dont **** with it.
Do the deload and give yourself some time to recover.

you could always do the deload, test your maxes at the end of the deload and work from the new maxes then.

Dan@IPG · 26-11-2009 01:09AM

First of all, as a direct answer: yes, Jim Wendler thinks it is a bad idea to not do the deload week in 5/3/1. (Perhaps that is why he built it into the system?)

Let's look at your situation:

You cranked out 20 quality (I am assuming) reps on your final set. Let's take a step back and consider absolute loading. The third and final set of week 2 should be 90% of your training max, which is based on 90% of your absolute max, which calculates to an 81% (90% x 90%) absolute load.

In practice, here is a general # reps / %1RM table:
Reps / %1RM
1 - 100
2 - 95
3 - 90
4 - 88
5 - 86
6 - 83
7 - 80
8 - 78
9 - 76
10 - 75
11 - 72
12 - 70

You should have been able to crank out reps in the 3-10 range but most likely in the middle of that range ... around 6 or 7. Yet you did 20 reps, which is off of this table and lies somewhere near 50% 1RM. So instead of doing 90% of your training max (80% of your absolute max), you essentially did soemthing near 60% of your training max (50% of your absolute max).

Obviously you didn't calculate your training max. You are so far off from where you should be, that you are not even close to actually doing 5/3/1.

Since you aren't doing 5/3/1, you do not to deload. What you (and many others on this forum) do need is tons and tons of help. Start with actually reading the 5/3/1 book and learning elementary math.

And before anyone gets all defensive, understand that I am actually answering the question and helping. This place needs a hard dose of reality, or it's never going to get any better.

Inspector Coptoor · 26-11-2009 01:17AM

also, what Dan said

Sangre · 26-11-2009 10:52AM

Dan@IPG wrote: »

And before anyone gets all defensive, understand that I am actually answering the question and helping. This place needs a hard dose of reality, or it's never going to get any better.

Thanks for telling it like it is and keeping it real.

I think you're right, my numbers are too low to be comparing this to Wendler's programme, I am not actually using/adjusting/changing Wendler's system. It has eased me back into training/flexibility though. I thought I had calculated my 5 rep max after a week or two of being back training, obviously I had a fair bit more to go in terms regaining strength.

The best thing would probably be to workout my max properly again.

Dan@IPG · 26-11-2009 06:23PM

Sangre wrote: »

The best thing would probably be to workout my max properly again.

I suggest the following:

(A) Tomorrow (Friday), for each major movement, work up to a heavy "max" set of 3-5. Most people just aren't capable of performing a quality 1RM, but a quality triple (3RM) is hard to argue with. Then use Jim's formula in the book to calculate your real maxes. Calculate from those your training maxes. And start 5/3/1 on Monday.

or

(B) Perform that 3-5RM test next week across each the week in place of the 5/3/1 training. And start 5/3/1 the following week.

Lastly, assuming you can maintain a high quality and always lift with good form, try the Boring But Big version for assistance work. Do not add anything else. All of those reps will rapidly get your strength restored to old levels and beyond.

You could even start the Boring But Big assistance program following the 3-5RM tests enxt week if you choose option (B) above. That would give you the opportunity to get a better handle on what loads to use. While you underestimated your primary 5/3/1 loading, people tend to overestimate their 5x10 loading for Boring But Big.

If it was me, I would choose option B and start delving in to Boring But Big along with it, probably just doing 3x10 instead of 5x10 next week.

newby.204 · 26-11-2009 07:29PM

was eleven stone last april, did rippitoes SS, then went on to 5/3/1 on my third cycle now, im up to (15st7oz)95.5kg now whiles theres no question some of it is fat, im going to hav to start running again after xmas for work(army) this is going to afect gains but i was wondering how badly, im still settin new PRs every session

Sangre · 26-11-2009 09:53PM

I'm going to try and see if I can work out some better 1rm this evening. I don't need it perfect though - just a lot higher. Debating whether doing one each day - I might try and get most of them tonigh - leaving squat and deadlift furthest apart.

Sangre · 26-11-2009 11:46PM

Spent today's session just trying to figure out my squat and OP 1rm.

Looks like I was at least 20kg off on my squat! 117.5kg@80kg (roughly - no scales in gym). I didn't feel comfortable going higher on my own and I didn't think I'd get much more today. OP was 42.5kg (fail at 45kg) - about 6.25kg off.

I've never tried a 1rm before so it was an interesting expeirence. I warmed up, then started 1 rep sets, increasing by 10,5 and finally 2.5. No idea if thats the right way to go about it.

At the time I thought it wasn't a tiring training session, however, now that I am home I'm absolutely sapped - not legs but overall.

Inspector Coptoor · 27-11-2009 09:59AM

thats what 1rm sessions do to you!
I'm testing all 4 of mine today and tomorrow and then gonna recalculate my numbers for cycle 6 of the 5/3/1

PeakOutput · 27-11-2009 03:49PM

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

thats what 1rm sessions do to you!
I'm testing all 4 of mine today and tomorrow and then gonna recalculate my numbers for cycle 6 of the 5/3/1

mind telling us your gains over those 24 weeks?

Sangre · 27-11-2009 05:35PM

Any particular reason you are recalculating? Are you not finding the extra 30kg heavy enough?

Doing dead and bench on Sunday - fun times!

I'm using DBs for the bench as WW never have a free bench.

Inspector Coptoor · 27-11-2009 05:57PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

mind telling us your gains over those 24 weeks?

its 20 weeks as i've 5 cycle completed at this stage and will start my 6th cycle on monday.

When i started the 5/3/1 5 months ago my 1rms were:

bench : 100kg
deadlift: 180kg
squat: 150kg
OH press: 65kg

On last test, 3 months ago for bench and OH press my 1rms were
bench: 107.5kg
OH press: 72.5kg

I test deadlift a month go before i started smolov junior and i got a big increase:
deadlift 200kg.
I havent tested 1rm in squat since march, will do so today or tomorrow.

I have done the following in the 5/3/1
Bench: 100kg x 7
Deadlift: 180kg x 5
Squat: 135kg x 8 and 140kg x 5
OH Press: 65kg x 4

I see real progress there and like the programme as i was repping what was my max only 5 months ago.

A big difference in my diet, especially in the last 3 months, was upping my milk intake to 4L a day (low fat milk)

Sangre wrote: »

Any particular reason you are recalculating? Are you not finding the extra 30kg heavy enough?

I'm recalculating my 1rms as i've just completed a smolov junior cycle in bench and deadlift and its recommended to test your 1rms a week after completion to see what you can do.
I havent tested my 1rm in the squat since march so wanna see what i can lift and seeing as im testing those three, i might as well test the OH press as well.

Sangre wrote: »

!
I'm using DBs for the bench as WW never have a free bench.

I;d ask to work in with someone.
although they train the same muscles, you can bench more with a BB than you can with DBs so in order to get an accurate 1rm on the BB bench, use a BB bench

Sangre · 27-11-2009 08:16PM

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

I;d ask to work in with someone.
although they train the same muscles, you can bench more with a BB than you can with DBs so in order to get an accurate 1rm on the BB bench, use a BB bench

I know, I know. I plan on using DBs exclusively though. The two benches seem to always taken, and usually by a pair. Not ideal using DB but WW seem to have a great range.

newby.204 · 28-11-2009 01:06AM

curently on standard 531, thinkin of changin to boring but big on he 5th cylce, or maybe the BB version not sure any thoughts??

Catenaccio! · 30-11-2009 01:15PM

Do you guys do the same assistance work on your deload week?

brianthebard · 30-11-2009 02:13PM

Yes but ususally halve it, for instance if doing BBB I'd only do 3 sets on deload week. you can do even less if you aren't feeling up to it, or try out new lifts that you might incorporate the following month.

Dan@IPG · 30-11-2009 02:16PM

Catenaccio! wrote: »

Do you guys do the same assistance work on your deload week?

It is better to "under deload," if that makes sense. And while the assistance work shouldn't make THAT much difference, cut it as well to be safe rather than sorry. I suggest cutting the assistance volume to the 25 to 50% range.

Example: rather than 5x10, do 2x10, or do a single set of 15 to 20.

You can think of it in terms of time as well - your deload session should take 25-50% as long as your regular session. So do as much as you want in half the time.

The 5/3/1 Discussion Thread

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