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Erotic Vacations

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  • #32
    Altar_Ego_Boy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭Altar_Ego_Boy


    taconnol wrote: »
    The U.N. opposes sex tourism citing health, social and cultural consequences for both tourist home countries and destination countries, especially in situations exploiting gender, age, social and economic inequalities in sex tourism destinations.[1][2][3]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_tourism


    Oh yes so then it's OK


    How exactly?


    Yes because it's only women who see a problem with sex tourism.


    I can't tell you how depressing it is to hear that's the only reason you wouldn't do it.

    I dont think there is anything unethical about prostitution. If its consensual then theres nothing wrong with it.

    You, however, clearly have an ethical objection. I think the onus is on you to explain exactly why you think it is unethical. All you have come up with so far are questions.

    I would think that yes it is mostly women that have a problem with sex tourism or for that matter prostitution in general. Im not saying every man thinks differently.

    What you find depressing is your own subjective experience. However, if you think just because you take moral exception to something then that makes it absolutely wrong then perhaps you should do yourself a favour and not adhere to such a rigid code of ethics


  • #33
    cooperguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    Like alot of people here a prostitute just has no appeal to me at all!!


  • #34
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    I dont think there is anything unethical about prostitution. If its consensual then theres nothing wrong with it.
    Define consensual.
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    You, however, clearly have an ethical objection. I think the onus is on you to explain exactly why you think it is unethical. All you have come up with so far are questions.
    Yes, yes I do have a problem with it. The problems with sex tourism are many but focus a central point of exploitation. The people involved in prostitution in countries of sex tourism are mostly poor, vulnerable and often children.
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    I would think that yes it is mostly women that have a problem with sex tourism or for that matter prostitution in general. Im not saying every man thinks differently.
    And do you have any evidence that it's "mostly women" that have a problem with sex tourism? Do you see any difference in the rich American woman giving jewelry & money to the young Caribbean man when she's on holiday and a European man paying directly for sex with a young Thai girl?
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    What you find depressing is your own subjective experience.
    What exactly does that mean?
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    However, if you think just because you take moral exception to something then that makes it absolutely wrong then perhaps you should do yourself a favour and not adhere to such a rigid code of ethics
    So..your advice is that because I see that something causes suffering for others and find it depressing that other are willing to turn a blind eye and partake in that activity, that the solution is for me to stop caring? What crappy, crappy advice.


  • #35
    Altar_Ego_Boy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭Altar_Ego_Boy


    taconnol wrote: »
    Define consensual.


    Yes, yes I do have a problem with it. The problems with sex tourism are many but focus a central point of exploitation. The people involved in prostitution in countries of sex tourism are mostly poor, vulnerable and often children.


    And do you have any evidence that it's "mostly women" that have a problem with sex tourism? Do you see any difference in the rich American woman giving jewelry & money to the young Caribbean man when she's on holiday and a European man paying directly for sex with a young Thai girl?


    What exactly does that mean?


    So..your advice is that because I see that something causes suffering for others and find it depressing that other are willing to turn a blind eye and partake in that activity, that the solution is for me to stop caring? What crappy, crappy advice.


    Consensual is when the woman makes the independent decision to become a prostitute. If its the case that she is forced into it by a third party then I, like any other normal person, would have an objection. However, if she chooses independently to become a prostitute then I have no objection.

    Of course the people involved in prostitution are poor. The women who become prostitutes make more from that work than they could in other employment. Its an economic decision they make to become prostitutes.

    Im not saying you should stop caring about the poor people of the world. However, the women I interacted with when I was in Thailand chose to become prostitutes because they could make more income that way. They made the independent decision and they werent forced into it. Trying to wipe out prostitution in poor nations is unrealistic.


  • #36
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    taconnol wrote: »


    Yes, yes I do have a problem with it. The problems with sex tourism are many but focus a central point of exploitation. The people involved in prostitution in countries of sex tourism are mostly poor, vulnerable and often children.


    And do you have any evidence that it's "mostly women" that have a problem with sex tourism? Do you see any difference in the rich American woman giving jewelry & money to the young Caribbean man when she's on holiday and a European man paying directly for sex with a young Thai girl?

    If there's as many guys who take issue with it they're certainly not as vocal.

    What exactly does that mean?


    So..your advice is that because I see that something causes suffering for others and find it depressing that other are willing to turn a blind eye and partake in that activity, that the solution is for me to stop caring? What crappy, crappy advice.

    So what is the solution? Do you really think the odd person not taking part out of ethical reasons is going to make any difference to the sex trade? Its not really crappy crappy advice because you caring isn't going to make the slightest difference.


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  • #37
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    Consensual is when the woman makes the independent decision to become a prostitute. If its the case that she is forced into it by a third party then I, like any other normal person, would have an objection. However, if she chooses independently to become a prostitute then I have no objection.
    I have no objection if a person chooses independently either. But you don't seem to think that extreme poverty impacts any way on the objectivity of a person's decision to enter poverty.
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    Its an economic decision they make to become prostitutes.
    Firstly, there are many that are coerced into prostitution. Then there are the many children who are not capable of making that sort of decision and are therefore all coerced by definition into prostitution. Of course it's an economic decision to become a prostitute but one often borne out of a desperate financial situation with other factors to consider, including hours of work and child care. Often women simply cannot work the 14 hour days demanded in many factories because it would require leaving their children alone for that amount of time. Prostitution can offer some a way of reducing this time.
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    They made the independent decision and they werent forced into it..
    And how exactly do you know that?
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    Trying to wipe out prostitution in poor nations is unrealistic.
    I suppose we should stop worrying about AIDS and world hunger then as well.

    Of course it's going to be difficult but you seem to want to ignore the large role that demand plays in perpetuating sex tourism.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    If there's as many guys who take issue with it they're certainly not as vocal.
    And? I really don't see what your point is.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    So what is the solution? Do you really think the odd person not taking part out of ethical reasons is going to make any difference to the sex trade? Its not really crappy crappy advice because you caring isn't going to make the slightest difference.
    There are two issues with sex tourism: supply and demand. The demand problem is people like the previous poster who has convinced himself that women go into prostitution willingly. Research has shown that sex tourists often have very rigid attitudes towards male and female roles. Many enjoy the traditional dominance that men enjoy over women in sex tourism destinations. You can hear a sex tourist making that exact point on this video:

    http://contexts.org/socimages/2008/04/17/sex-tourism-in-thailand/

    Also, I love this story:

    The problem on the supply side is the serious poverty that many people experience in countries that serve as destinations for sex tourists. There are weak social welfare structures that leave the poor with few options and allow for the easy trafficking of people (especially children). The governments provide little support for helping people out of the industry as there is often a significant stigma attached to prostitution and they are really at the bottom of the list when money is being handed out.

    Jesus OF COURSE it's going to be difficult and I as an individual may not have a big impact but I am human and I don't just turn my empathy on and off like a lightswitch.


  • #38
    Altar_Ego_Boy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭Altar_Ego_Boy


    taconnol wrote: »
    I have no objection if a person chooses independently either. But you don't seem to think that extreme poverty impacts any way on the objectivity of a person's decision to enter poverty

    Im guessing you meant to say prostitution. Of course poverty forces a woman into prostitution. We've established that at this stage. Shes not gonna do it for any other reason. The point is that she has not been forced or coerced into doing it. Youre saying a woman shouldnt become a prostitute because it wasnt her first choice of career? In that case the answer to our problems is simple: lets outlaw poverty.

    taconnol wrote: »
    Firstly, there are many that are coerced into prostitution. Then there are the many children who are not capable of making that sort of decision and are therefore all coerced by definition into prostitution. Of course it's an economic decision to become a prostitute but one often borne out of a desperate financial situation with other factors to consider, including hours of work and child care. Often women simply cannot work the 14 hour days demanded in many factories because it would require leaving their children alone for that amount of time. Prostitution can offer some a way of reducing this time.

    Like any other normal person im against exploitation of children, child prostitution and human trafficking. But as you clearly typed above a woman makes the decision to become a prostitute because of her economic situation. She can earn more money in prostitution then she can by any other employment. Yes she had economic reasons for becoming a prostitute but the bottom line it was her decision. You think economic pressure (the market or the economy) is some malevolent third party that tricks a person into making decisions.

    Thats not the case. A woman who decides to be a prostitute in South East Asia does it for the same reason as a woman in Ireland or Europe: because it pays better.

    taconnol wrote: »
    And how exactly do you know that?

    I dont know exactly.They told me so and I believed them. Most of them had kids and needed the money.What I will say is that there are so many women working as prostitutes in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia (and Im guessing most other developing nations) that one has to conclude it is a global phenonemon and not something that can wiped out by simple changes in government policy. It will only go away when the economies of these countries improve.


    taconnol wrote: »
    There are two issues with sex tourism: supply and demand. The demand problem is people like the previous poster who has convinced himself that women go into prostitution willingly. Research has shown that sex tourists often have very rigid attitudes towards male and female roles. Many enjoy the traditional dominance that men enjoy over women in sex tourism destinations

    Research has shown that men have been paying for sex since biblical times (sorry i dont have any links to prove this), the demand has always been there (yes even before my time in SE Asia) and probably always will be.

    I think its clear that you just have personal problem with prostitution per se. I have utmost respect for activists like you who want improve the plight of developing nations. However, its unwise for you to cast sanctimonious moral judgments on others because not everyone is gonna share your moral outlook.

    Prostitution isnt wrong by any absolute moral code and the problems of exploitation (as real as they may be) are no more than incidental to it.


  • #39
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    Im guessing you meant to say prostitution. Of course poverty forces a woman into prostitution. We've established that at this stage. Shes not gonna do it for any other reason. The point is that she has not been forced or coerced into doing it. Youre saying a woman shouldnt become a prostitute because it wasnt her first choice of career? In that case the answer to our problems is simple: lets outlaw poverty.
    Either she's forced or she isn't. I don't see how you can just dismiss the economic causes of prostitution as somehow less important than the more violent or more physical causes.
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    You think economic pressure (the market or the economy) is some malevolent third party that tricks a person into making decisions.
    Yes, when it forces people into professions like prostitution. You think the market is some benevolent third party that has the best interests of people at heart?
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    Thats not the case. A woman who decides to be a prostitute in South East Asia does it for the same reason as a woman in Ireland or Europe: because it pays better.
    There are hundreds of reasons why a particular person (and let's not also generalise into assuming that all prostitutes are women) goes into prostitution. Economic reasons are a large one but there are other social, cultural and individual reasons why a person would end up a prostitute.
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    I dont know exactly.They told me so and I believed them.
    Ah right, so it must be the truth then. The only true line that was spoken that was spoken in the film "Pretty Woman" was when she said "I am whatever you want me to be".
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    What I will say is that there are so many women working as prostitutes in Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia (and Im guessing most other developing nations) that one has to conclude it is a global phenonemon and not something that can wiped out by simple changes in government policy. It will only go away when the economies of these countries improve.
    Of course. There is also the question of demand, of course.
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    I think its clear that you just have personal problem with prostitution per se.
    What exactly does a "personal problem" mean? Are you trying to insinuate that I am the only one who sees a problem with prostitution or that my problems with it are the result of some sort of irrational, personal point of view, rather than an ability to objectively look at the facts? Either way that's pretty dismissive and unfounded.
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    However, its unwise for you to cast sanctimonious moral judgments on others because not everyone is gonna share your moral outlook.
    What's sanctimonious? I can't say I'm surprised that you resorted to this defense though. It's a pretty standard one that basically boils down to "I don't like that fact that you're judging my actions", well tough. I'm a consequentialist and as such I look at the consequences of actions and see if they cause harm or good. There's no religious or other motivation behind my opinion of sex tourism, whatever you might like to think.
    Altar_Ego_Boy wrote: »
    Prostitution isnt wrong by any absolute moral code and the problems of exploitation (as real as they may be) are no more than incidental to it.
    Define "wrong". And did you just acknowledge that exploitation is a very "real" problem in prostitution and straight after dismiss it as "incidental"? You obviously aren't very bothered about exploitation in that case - you can't have it both ways.


  • #40
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    taconnol wrote: »

    I suppose we should stop worrying about AIDS and world hunger then as well.

    Probably yes with hunger, all western aid generally does with hunger stricken countries is create a bigger starving population a few years down the line.

    AIDS; there's selfish reasons to wipe it out. That aside it's much easier to wipe out than people's desire to part take in both sides of prostitution.
    Of course it's going to be difficult but you seem to want to ignore the large role that demand plays in perpetuating sex tourism.

    And you seem to want to believe that its possible to get rid of the reasons for demand.
    And? I really don't see what your point is.

    You wanted evidence that women have a bigger problem with the sex industry. Anyone living on planet earth knows that statement doesn't require evidence.
    There are two issues with sex tourism: supply and demand. The demand problem is people like the previous poster who has convinced himself that women go into prostitution willingly. Research has shown that sex tourists often have very rigid attitudes towards male and female roles. Many enjoy the traditional dominance that men enjoy over women in sex tourism destinations. You can hear a sex tourist making that exact point on this video:

    http://contexts.org/socimages/2008/04/17/sex-tourism-in-thailand/

    Also, I love this story:

    The problem on the supply side is the serious poverty that many people experience in countries that serve as destinations for sex tourists. There are weak social welfare structures that leave the poor with few options and allow for the easy trafficking of people (especially children). The governments provide little support for helping people out of the industry as there is often a significant stigma attached to prostitution and they are really at the bottom of the list when money is being handed out.

    Jesus OF COURSE it's going to be difficult and I as an individual may not have a big impact but I am human and I don't just turn my empathy on and off like a lightswitch.

    Ok, aside from the last few lines you appear to be just listing bad things about prostitution. Not relevant - the issue won't go away.
    Research has shown that sex tourists often have very rigid attitudes towards male and female roles. Many enjoy the traditional dominance that men enjoy over women in sex tourism destinations. You can hear a sex tourist making that exact point on this video:

    http://contexts.org/socimages/2008/04/17/sex-tourism-in-thailand

    What's your point here? Are you talking about the guys from minute 18 on? Those guys aren't using prostitutes they're married to thai women.


  • #41
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Probably yes with hunger, all western aid generally does with hunger stricken countries is create a bigger starving population a few years down the line.
    All you're complaining about is the method with which the West has been tackling hunger. That isn't an argument for not trying at all.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    AIDS; there's selfish reasons to wipe it out. That aside it's much easier to wipe out than people's desire to part take in both sides of prostitution.
    You still haven't provided a decent argument for not wanting to bother tackling prostitution. The fact that it will be difficult is really not a valid argument.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    And you seem to want to believe that its possible to get rid of the reasons for demand.
    Where did I say that it would be possible to get rid of the reasons for demand?
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    You wanted evidence that women have a bigger problem with the sex industry. Anyone living on planet earth knows that statement doesn't require evidence.
    Will if it's so blindingly obvious, you'll be happy to provide some evidence. Spouting "just so" logic will not get you very far in any debate.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Ok, aside from the last few lines you appear to be just listing bad things about prostitution. Not relevant - the issue won't go away.
    Er...so in a discussion about sex tourism the damage that it causes are not relevant? Just lovely.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    What's your point here? Are you talking about the guys from minute 18 on? Those guys aren't using prostitutes they're married to thai women.
    I was talking about a general attitude expressed by the Western men in the video towards Western women vs Asian women. They don't like the assertive attitude of Western women and so go to countries like Thailand where women are more submissive and they can take advantage of social norms in that country and find a "relationship" with a woman who is more "willing" to play the submissive woman. For me the line between these kinds of marriages and prostitution is very blurred. THAT'S my point.


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  • #42
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    taconnol wrote: »
    All you're complaining about is the method with which the West has been tackling hunger. That isn't an argument for not trying at all.

    Fair enough, hunger/prostitution is apples/oranges

    You still haven't provided a decent argument for not wanting to bother tackling prostitution. The fact that it will be difficult is really not a valid argument.

    Not difficult, impossible from the approach of trying to stop men from doing it for ethical reasons. It was a response to one of your previous points.
    Where did I say that it would be possible to get rid of the reasons for demand?

    You implied it, intentionally or otherwise, when you said "Of course it's going to be difficult but you seem to want to ignore the large role that demand plays in perpetuating sex tourism.
    "     to alter ego boy. Mentioning that role in that context implies prostitution could be stopped through a change of attitudes. That is unrealistic which is the point you were responding to.

    Will if it's so blindingly obvious, you'll be happy to provide some evidence. Spouting "just so" logic will not get you very far in any debate.

    I don't care if you agree with that or not, speaking to people I know a much higher percentage of women have a problem with it. It was in response to something you said to alter ego boy and its not relevant to stopping prostitution. And to be clear I'm not suggesting your opinion is less valid because you're female, just in case that's what you're thinking.
    Er...so in a discussion about sex tourism the damage that it causes are not relevant? Just lovely.

    I wanted you to answer on a specific part of the discussion, not just list facts about the general topic. That kind of suggests you had no answer
    I was talking about a general attitude expressed by the Western men in the video towards Western women vs Asian women. They don't like the assertive attitude of Western women and so go to countries like Thailand where women are more submissive and they can take advantage of social norms in that country and find a "relationship" with a woman who is more "willing" to play the submissive woman. For me the line between these kinds of marriages and prostitution is very blurred. THAT'S my point.

    That's pretty offensive to those women, and if two of my half asian friend's mothers are anything to go by its utter bullsh*t. I asked you what difference a few people not using prostitutes for ethical reasons would make and you responded by showing a link with guys were married to women in thailand and called them sex tourists. Not relevant.


  • #43
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Not difficult, impossible from the approach of trying to stop men from doing it for ethical reasons. It was a response to one of your previous points.
    Yes you're right, it's a difficult issue because it requires efforts in a huge range of areas. Attitudes, culture, economics, etc. Again, I don't see why this is an reason not to try.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    You implied it, intentionally or otherwise, when you said "Of course it's going to be difficult but you seem to want to ignore the large role that demand plays in perpetuating sex tourism.
    "     to alter ego boy. Mentioning that role in that context implies prostitution could be stopped through a change of attitudes. That is unrealistic which is the point you were responding to.
    I didn't imply it, intentionally or otherwise, and it would be nice if you stopped simply taking what you want out of what I write
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I don't care if you agree with that or not, speaking to people I know a much higher percentage of women have a problem with it.
    Well I will wait until you prove it with something other than anecdotal evidence. If I believed everything that was claimed on Boards on the foot of anecdotal evidence I would believe everything and anything.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    And to be clear I'm not suggesting your opinion is less valid because you're female, just in case that's what you're thinking.
    I should certainly hope not.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I wanted you to answer on a specific part of the discussion, not just list facts about the general topic. That kind of suggests you had no answer
    No, you're trying to leave a central part of the discussion, ie the negative impact of sex tourism out of this debate. We are already having a discussion on the difficulties of eradicating sex tourism so your "suggestion" that I have no answers is nonsense. It should be possible to discuss ALL relevant aspects of a debate, not just the parts that one person feels may damage their argument.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    That's pretty offensive to those women, and if two of my half asian friend's mothers are anything to go by its utter bullsh*t.
    It would be really nice if you stopped reading into my posts just what you want to. In this case, you have taken my opinion on a particular type of relationship between Western men and Asian women to apply to ALL relationships between these two groups.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I asked you what difference a few people not using prostitutes for ethical reasons would make and you responded by showing a link with guys were married to women in thailand and called them sex tourists. Not relevant.
    A reduction in the number of sex tourists will result in a reduction in the industry in the destination countries. Is appealing to their higher nature the most effective way to combat sex tourism? No, that's why we have laws and penalties. Is it important to those people that might be removed or never enter into the industry in the first place? Most definitely. Is it the ONLY measure that should be taken? Of course not but there are far, far too many people who wilfully believe the "happy hooker" myth because it suits them and this false reality should most definitely be challenged.

    Also, please stop dismissing aspects of my post as "not relevant" - it's very offputting. I could do the same to large sections of your posts but out of manners, I don't.


  • #44
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    taconnol wrote: »
    Yes you're right, it's a difficult issue because it requires efforts in a huge range of areas. Attitudes, culture, economics, etc. Again, I don't see why this is an reason not to try.

    Its a reason not to try because its utterly ineffective.

    I didn't imply it, intentionally or otherwise, and it would be nice if you stopped simply taking what you want out of what I write

    Yes you did, unintentionally it appears.

    Well I will wait until you prove it with something other than anecdotal evidence. If I believed everything that was claimed on Boards on the foot of anecdotal evidence I would believe everything and anything.

    What men and women think of prostitutes isn't relevent to stopping it. I think if you're honest you'll admit more women you know than men have more of a problem with prostitution.

    I should certainly hope not.

    Yes, that's what I just said.

    No, you're trying to leave a central part of the discussion, ie the negative impact of sex tourism out of this debate. We are already having a discussion on the difficulties of eradicating sex tourism so your "suggestion" that I have no answers is nonsense. It should be possible to discuss ALL relevant aspects of a debate, not just the parts that one person feels may damage their argument.

    Well discuss them in another part of your post, instead of when i asked a question about a specific issue.

    It would be really nice if you stopped reading into my posts just what you want to. In this case, you have taken my opinion on a particular type of relationship between Western men and Asian women to apply to ALL relationships between these two groups.

    I did nothing of the sort. The examples I used were the exact type of relationship you claimed blurred with prostitution.

    A reduction in the number of sex tourists will result in a reduction in the industry in the destination countries. Is appealing to their higher nature the most effective way to combat sex tourism? No, that's why we have laws and penalties. Is it important to those people that might be removed or never enter into the industry in the first place? Most definitely. Is it the ONLY measure that should be taken? Of course not but there are far, far too many people who wilfully believe the "happy hooker" myth because it suits them and this false reality should most definitely be challenged.

    Men don't care if the woman is happy or not, they'll still use prostitutes. Everyone knows the vast majority of non-slave prostitutes enter the field doing something they don't want to do, to make much more money than they could otherwise. Just as drug traffickers do. That's not condoning it, its just pointing out a reality.
    Myself I wouldn't use prostitutes for health reasons. If I somehow knew(which is hypothetical because its impossible) they were clean would I stop and think "am I forcing these women to demean themselves"? No I wouldn't because there's millions more men who will use them and me taking a stand won't make any difference. I can't see why you'd believe appealing to people's higher nature is anything but fut futile
    Also, please stop dismissing aspects of my post as "not relevant" - it's very offputting. I could do the same to large sections of your posts but out of manners, I don't.

    If your arguments aren't relevent to a question I'm going to point that out. There's nothing unmannerly about that and I'd invite you to do the same.


  • #45
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Its a reason not to try because its utterly ineffective.
    So now we've gone from difficult to utterly ineffective.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Yes you did, unintentionally it appears.
    Seriously. If you're going to keep up the strawmans, we'll just call it a day.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    What men and women think of prostitutes isn't relevent to stopping it. I think if you're honest you'll admit more women you know than men have more of a problem with prostitution.
    Again, I'll wait until you come up with something better than "if you're honest you'll admit" blah blah.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Well discuss them in another part of your post, instead of when i asked a question about a specific issue.
    :rolleyes:
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I did nothing of the sort. The examples I used were the exact type of relationship you claimed blurred with prostitution.
    No they weren't. Not at all. It's clear you don't understand the type of relationship I was referring to. And the only type of relationship you referred to was one with a Western man and Asian women, hence your generalisation - not mine.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Men don't care if the woman is happy or not, they'll still use prostitutes. Everyone knows the vast majority of non-slave prostitutes enter the field doing something they don't want to do, to make much more money than they could otherwise. Just as drug traffickers do. That's not condoning it, its just pointing out a reality.
    What you wrote is probably true for the most part. But I don't think that clients of prostitutes should be allowed any chance to fool themselves on this topic. It looks like you're taking your own personal view, that you would be perfectly happy to use prostitutes but you have a selfish worry about your own health and are generalising this attitude out to the rest of mankind. Moreover, how can you prove that more men wouldn't use prostitutes if they felt that the prostitutes were perfectly happy (as I'm sure some prostitutes are).
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Myself I wouldn't use prostitutes for health reasons. If I somehow knew(which is hypothetical because its impossible) they were clean would I stop and think "am I forcing these women to demean themselves"? No I wouldn't because there's millions more men who will use them and me taking a stand won't make any difference. I can't see why you'd believe appealing to people's higher nature is anything but fut futile
    Well that's an excuse for not bothering to stop and think about the impact of anything you do. Why recycle? Millions don't. Why be nice to anyone? Millions aren't.

    Again you have moved from difficult to "futile" within a few posts. I'd like to know where you get your evidence from for that? Do you know anyone that helps get people out of prostitution or read any studies on the issue? Because so far all you've done is state what you believe to be true and demand that I take it as gospel or so obvious that there's no need for you to actually back up what you say with any modicum of evidence.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    If your arguments aren't relevent to a question I'm going to point that out. There's nothing unmannerly about that and I'd invite you to do the same.
    It would help if your claims of irrelevance were in any way unjustified. I mean we're talking about sex tourism and you try to dismiss a video about sex tourism in Thailand as irrelevant? The point of video was to explore an attitude towards men and women's traditional roles that is prevalent among many male sex tourists. And we're discussing demand and what to do about it. And it isn't relevant? Right.


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