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DTT Mt Leinster, Ch45 blocking Presely in the South East

  • 19-11-2009 10:13AM
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭


    RTE Mt Leinster moved to ch42 last night ,making reception of a significant number of presely channels impossible.

    It's still on 42 this morning.


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Comments

  • #2
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    Deleted User wrote: »
    RTE Mt Leinster moved to ch42 last night ,making reception of a significant number of presely channels impossible.

    It's still on 42 this morning.

    Now that is interesting. It shows they are very rattled indeed by developments. They can't touch the Preseli PSB channels as these are not allocated under GE-06 for Mount Leinster. Mount Leinster is allocated 39, 42, 45, 49 and several others with 42, 45 and 49 cochannel with the Preseli COM muxes so now there is CCI on the SDN mux instead of the Arqiva A which is 45. Strategically they will be very worried with the free access to all the UK COM channels as the business case for Onevision is slipping away by the hour with the expanded DTT overspill and the elephant in the corner, Freesat. If Onevision never takes off they should switch to Channel 39: there will be no CCI interactions with Preseli at all and West Wales can receive Irish DTT with the Sagem box, BT Vision box or forthcoming DVB-T2 boxes. It is perhaps too much to expect RTENL to adopt a strategy of peaceful coexistence because increasingly the whole project looks like it is about to collapse with the failure of Onevision to commit, the inability of the Department to fund a DUK type operation, the poor state of the Irish economy and the defacto monopoly of pay-tv rights in the UK & Ireland held by Sky. End of story I think.

    In a related corker development Arfon DTT is now being received perfectly in South Down : details to follow.


  • #3
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    It would be fair to point out that Mount Leinster is supposed to have 42 in its 'bouquet' of allocated muxes .

    It would also be fair to point out that RTE would be sued rotten were this mux allocated as planned to a commercial DTT operator who subsequently discovered that no tests had been done vis a vis Preseli on 'their' mux .

    Can one use a highly directional aerial to 'ignore' the RTE signal and pick up Preseli only ...I do recommend you wait for dry weather first but if you can't wait then do be careful up there :)

    Channel Allocations Wales Facing Transmitters , data from here !

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59223138&postcount=3

    Main Transmitters .

    Dungarvan 55 59 62 65
    Kippure 54 58 61 64
    Mt Leinster 39 42 45 49
    Three Rock 54 58 61 64

    Secondaries .

    Greystones 52 56 66 68
    Suir Valley 52 56 66 68


  • #4
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I take the point that they have to test 42 in the light of preselys high power..
    However the effects are the same-anyone with a presely array won't receive anything on 42..just like the situation on ch45.

    I suppose now we do have sky news and sky 3 :rolleyes:

    I'd agree fully with Mr dtv though,that this is more likely to be a spoiler move.
    The fact that they can't touch the presely psb channels is good enough for me..Thats where I watch Eastenders anyway and not on RTE ;)

    Onevision is still doomed though-anyone can see that


  • #5
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    It would be fair to point out that Mount Leinster is supposed to have 42 in its 'bouquet' of allocated muxes .

    It would also be fair to point out that RTE would be sued rotten were this mux allocated as planned to a commercial DTT operator who subsequently discovered that no tests had been done vis a vis Preseli on 'their' mux .

    Can one use a highly directional aerial to 'ignore' the RTE signal and pick up Preseli only ...I do recommend you wait for dry weather first but if you can't wait then do be careful up there :)

    Channel Allocations Wales Facing Transmitters , data from here !

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59223138&postcount=3

    Main Transmitters .

    Dungarvan 55 59 62 65
    Kippure 54 58 61 64
    Mt Leinster 39 42 45 49
    Three Rock 54 58 61 64

    Secondaries .

    Greystones 52 56 66 68
    Suir Valley 52 56 66 68

    Note that none of those allocations conflict with Preseli PSB muxes, LLanddona PSB + COM muxes, Arfon PSB muxes (no COM there..) and Dungarvan is too far away to interact with Winter Hill. In addition all channels north of 61 are going to have be changed as part of the EU wide 800Mhz clearance programme. Mount Leinster also has several other GE-O6 allocations IIRC. It has been understood for a long time that Mount Leinster would interact with Preseli COM muxes but I suspect RTENL is trying to introduce some viewer uncertainty because the more DTT boxes are bought the less and less attractive it becomes for Onevision and its investors.


  • #6
    bothyhead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭bothyhead


    Thanks, I was just going to post a query as to what happened to CH 42.


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  • #7
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Commercial DTT in Ireland is utterly doomed but an allocation is an allocation .

    I think they are simply testing international frequency co ordination between main transmitters and not spoiling .


  • #8
    SRB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    Have to agree with Sponge Bob - it's obviously just a test to see how DTT from Wales impacts on that Mux.


  • #9
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Commercial DTT in Ireland is utterly doomed but an allocation is an allocation .

    I think they are simply testing international frequency co ordination between main transmitters and not spoiling .

    Agreed re commercial DTT: I think Onevision will pull out very shortly. The full list of Mount Leinster GE-06 channels is 23, 26, 30, 34 and 39, 42, 45, 49. The last three as we have discussed are cochannel with the Preseli COM muxes but none of the Group A channels are cochannel with Blaen-Plwyf. Should commercial DTT be abandoned and only a one mux system transmitted then they could switch to E39 or one of the Group A channels.


  • #10
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    When commercial DTT is abandoned ( again in our case ) they should plan for 2 national FTA muxes between ( crudely) channels 30 and 50 and release the rest for lower powered and essential and reliable BB services that will not spill over , basically concentrate TV services between 560 and 695mhz ( roughly chs 30 - 50 )

    For the moment we have quarantined 300 mhz or so ....and for nothing , we need to release half that forthwith .

    Co ordination should be tested and signed off between ch40 to ch 50 in any event

    FTA satellite has killed the Commercial DTT model in Ireland . Over half of all Irish homes can receive FTA satellite of whom the great majority also pay Uncle Rupert at least €20 a month for extra channels.

    Time to move on and find more productive uses for the spectrum instead of pretending to have a plan and a business model as has been the case more or less continually since about 1997 :( . If the upper part of the band ( above) 700mhz is auctioned then reserve maybe the first €20m for RTE Networks for the hassle and as a thank you for buggering off quietly out of the way .


  • #11
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    When commercial DTT is abandoned ( again in our case ) they should plan for 2 national FTA muxes between ( crudely) channels 30 and 50 and release the rest for lower powered and essential and reliable BB services that will not spill over , basically concentrate TV services between 560 and 695mhz ( roughly chs 30 - 50 )

    For the moment we have quarantined 300 mhz or so ....and for nothing , we need to release half that forthwith .

    Co ordination should be tested and signed off between ch40 to ch 50 in any event

    FTA satellite has killed the Commercial DTT model in Ireland . Over half of all Irish homes can receive FTA satellite of whom the great majority also pay Uncle Rupert at least €20 a month for extra channels.

    Time to move on and find more productive uses for the spectrum instead of pretending to have a plan and a business model as has been the case more or less continually since about 1997 :( . If the upper part of the band ( above) 700mhz is auctioned then reserve maybe the first €20m for RTE Networks for the hassle and as a thank you for buggering off quietly out of the way .

    I am beginning to wonder when consumer and business realism will set in. Use of channels is governed by the GE-06 allocations and this determines the sets that can be used at each site. The 800Mhz band will be auctioned off to mobile broadband operators. Two FTA DTT multiplexes can be operated in the existing allocations quite easily and the question then becomes a) which services b) which picture definition and c) which standard? They would have saved themselves a lot of grief if they had aligned technically with the UK ten years ago and learnt from the failures of commercial DTT elsewhere. There may well be merit in aligning with the UK at this time but I suspect more time will be wasted. It comes with the territory alas!


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  • #12
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    mrdtv wrote: »
    It comes with the territory alas!
    It comes with the succession of ( generally) utter morons who have been responsible for policy in this country since DTT was conceived , starting with the corrupt Lowry and getting progressively worse thereafter with one exception .

    The current incumbent , Eamon Ryan , is on balance the most stupid and myopic of them all :(


  • #13
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RTE are also broadcasting a now blank carrier at full power on ch45 so their jamming of presely will be complete when they power up ch49... :rolleyes:


  • #14
    marclt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 858 ✭✭✭marclt


    Anyone able to discover at what power these RTE tests are broadcasting at?

    I think they are pretty low power, but probably powerful enough to cover the footprint effectively - ESPECIALLY if the viewer only has one UHF aerial pointing to Mt. Leinster.

    If you were to take any Presely set up out of the equation then coverage on channel 42 would probably suffice except in extreme lift conditions for the majority of people.

    Llandonna reception will be near on impossible in the south east.. The signal will be blocked out to the south west by the hills on the Llyn. So perhaps Blaenplwyf will give the stable coverage we're expecting it too!

    But, the one thing that will stump people is having boxes that flick between strongest transmitters... Could lead to more trouble than it is worth.


  • #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I've actually lost all presely today for the first time in months..
    There is a near hurricane howling outside and very heavy rain which must have 40ft waves on the irish sea...never a good thing when you are just above earth curvature when pointing at presely.

    I do have 60% strength and 100% quality from mt leinster though :rolleyes:

    I'm wondering if new 42 is strong enough to affect presely 43?
    45 never affected 46 but I seem to have only 20% strength on ch43 now and zero quality...whereas ch49 is at 40% strength and 10% quality ...highly unusual...given it's at 10kw and ch43 is at 20 and in a better place in the b band


  • #16
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've actually lost all presely today for the first time in months..
    There is a near hurricane howling outside and very heavy rain which must have 40ft waves on the irish sea...never a good thing when you are just above earth curvature when pointing at presely.

    I do have 60% strength and 100% quality from mt leinster though :rolleyes:

    I'm wondering if new 42 is strong enough to affect presely 43?
    45 never affected 46 but I seem to have only 20% strength on ch43 now and zero quality...whereas ch49 is at 40% strength and 10% quality ...highly unusual...given it's at 10kw and ch43 is at 20 and in a better place in the b band

    Adjacent channels are never a problem in DTT. The severe weather conditions will cause distant signals to fail (and satellite too.) and the quality will be all over the place: it will probably return later on when the storms pass.

    RTENL are rather like King Canute trying to hold back the tide (its going to drown them via Freesat mixing metaphors!): the powering up of blank carriers is possibly to demonstrate to investors but is otherwise a complete waste of electricity costs if you are not operating a service. Can you spell Titanic...


  • #17
    bothyhead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭bothyhead


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've actually lost all presely today for the first time in months..
    There is a near hurricane howling outside and very heavy rain which must have 40ft waves on the irish sea...never a good thing when you are just above earth curvature when pointing at presely.

    I do have 60% strength and 100% quality from mt leinster though :rolleyes:

    I'm wondering if new 42 is strong enough to affect presely 43?
    45 never affected 46 but I seem to have only 20% strength on ch43 now and zero quality...whereas ch49 is at 40% strength and 10% quality ...highly unusual...given it's at 10kw and ch43 is at 20 and in a better place in the b band

    I've just checked: 43 and 46 are fine for me today (Gorey)


  • #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bothyhead wrote: »
    I've just checked: 43 and 46 are fine for me today (Gorey)
    Interesting...
    I think the twins have moved in the storm-they are certainly bopping about like crazy up there :(

    whats 49 like?


  • #19
    PyeContinental
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭PyeContinental


    Just checked now, the channels are all being broadcast on Ch42 (642MHz) as well as Ch45 (666MHz).

    It would be fantastic if they ultimately decided to broadcast on Ch39 (618MHz) only. Would RTE consider an overspill into Wales for our TV stations an advantage? People in Wales have listened to Irish FM radio for many years. I remember the Welsh band, The Stereophonics once said in an interview that they grew up listening to Dave Fanning. Do RTE consider the positive effect that our broadcasts reaching the UK can have, irrespective of any extra figures for advertising?

    Just read this on wikipedia, by the way: "[UHF] channels 31-40 and 63-68 to be released and may be made available for other uses by Ofcom. Public consultation due December 2006)" So what might they use these channels for, if not TV?


  • #20
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Interesting...
    I think the twins have moved in the storm-they are certainly bopping about like crazy up there :(

    whats 49 like?

    Don't do anything in the storm. I have seen quite a lot of aerials downed recently even some quite big high gain installations (pole snapped.) If it settles down after the storm its just the weather, if not its a misalignment. Patience...


  • #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    @mrdtv
    It's definitely moved.
    The wind is gusting to 70mph at the moment and howling loudly.
    The twins horizontally polarized are much more of a wind catcher than vertical.
    They were up there never moving,for nearly 15 years for many a worse storm than this including 1 storm that downed over 40 electricity poles locally and left us without power for nearly a week.

    No one has any intention of climbing that today ..don't worry :D


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  • #22
    SRB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    mrdtv wrote: »

    RTENL are rather like King Canute trying to hold back the tide (its going to drown them via Freesat mixing metaphors!): the powering up of blank carriers is possibly to demonstrate to investors but is otherwise a complete waste of electricity costs if you are not operating a service. Can you spell Titanic...

    That's a bit unfair - they have powered up other muxes on and off over the last 9 months, Kippure 58 and 64 for example, if they were doing it with the sole aim of jamming the UK signals there would be an outcry which would cause them more harm than good.


  • #23
    PyeContinental
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭PyeContinental


    Yeah I suppose you'd have to expect that trying different broadcast frequencies during testing would be a normal thing to do.

    Suppose they did eventually settle on Ch39 though, what would happen in 2012?
    From http://www.ukfree.tv/mapsofsignal_max.php?c=39
    "Channel 39 is to be designated for non TV use by 2012"


  • #24
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    SRB wrote: »
    That's a bit unfair - they have powered up other muxes on and off over the last 9 months, Kippure 58 and 64 for example, if they were doing it with the sole aim of jamming the UK signals there would be an outcry which would cause them more harm than good.

    The timing is not coincidental with DSO Phase 2 in NW Wales yesterday, the very shaky nature of the Irish DTT 'project', and the fact that people are rushing out to buy Freeview boxes in SE Ireland. The aim is obviously to try and destabilise the putative DTT viewer but the main UK channels are not affected as the PSB Preseli muxes are not affected, only the commercial muxes.

    BTW 54, 58 and 61 are cochannel with the new Winter Hill DSO on December 2nd so it would not surprise me if neither Kippure, Three Rock or Winter Hill could be received in East and South Down on those channels after that!


  • #25
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Funny that because when 'other' uses for the UHF band were being discussed Ireland was fully prepared ( as late as 2006) to allow channels 21 - 23, 39 - 41 and 65 - 69 to be designated for 'other' purposes .

    I think Comreg had a headfart about DVB-H around then .


  • #26
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Funny that because when 'other' uses for the UHF band were being discussed Ireland was fully prepared ( as late as 2006) to allow channels 21 - 23, 39 - 41 and 65 - 69 to be designated for 'other' purposes .

    I think Comreg had a headfart about DVB-H around then .

    Funny also that DVB-H now looks a goner in France as well as Germany and there is no interest in the UK. With high power DTT the likes of LG are now bringing out DTT in phones and it works, so dedicated DVB-H nets are not needed and unaffordable. Incidentally Ch21 will be used by Divis & Blaen-Plwyf post UK DSO.


  • #27
    marclt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 858 ✭✭✭marclt


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Interesting...
    I think the twins have moved in the storm-they are certainly bopping about like crazy up there :(

    whats 49 like?

    Isn't 49 still on it's pre DSO allocation of 1 or 2kw? Not due to be super-powered until 24th March 2010...

    it's the one that causes the most problems... be interesting to see if RTE try out that channel too?? Surely they'd be better looking at one with no allocation for miles...


  • #28
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    PyeContinental wrote: »
    Yeah I suppose you'd have to expect that trying different broadcast frequencies during testing would be a normal thing to do.

    Suppose they did eventually settle on Ch39 though, what would happen in 2012?
    From http://www.ukfree.tv/mapsofsignal_max.php?c=39
    "Channel 39 is to be designated for non TV use by 2012"

    Actually these channels are likely to be brought back for use for DTT as a swap for the loss of Ch 61-62 in the 800 Mhz clearance. That's the latest thinking anyway


  • #29
    SRB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    mrdtv wrote: »
    The timing is not coincidental with DSO Phase 2 in NW Wales yesterday

    Well, yes, but they couldn't really test to see what the result would be BEFORE switchover. DTT coverage maps are one thing, the real overlapping coverage issue, as is now being found in parts of England and Wales, is another.


  • #30
    mrdtv
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭mrdtv


    PyeContinental wrote: »
    Just checked now, the channels are all being broadcast on Ch42 (642MHz) as well as Ch45 (666MHz).

    It would be fantastic if they ultimately decided to broadcast on Ch39 (618MHz) only. Would RTE consider an overspill into Wales for our TV stations an advantage? People in Wales have listened to Irish FM radio for many years. I remember the Welsh band, The Stereophonics once said in an interview that they grew up listening to Dave Fanning. Do RTE consider the positive effect that our broadcasts reaching the UK can have, irrespective of any extra figures for advertising?

    Just read this on wikipedia, by the way: "[UHF] channels 31-40 and 63-68 to be released and may be made available for other uses by Ofcom. Public consultation due December 2006)" So what might they use these channels for, if not TV?

    Those allocations are changing; 39 and 40 are going to be used for DTT because 61 and 62 are going to be taken away from DTT EU wide. See all the 800 Mhz stuff by googling it.

    'Out-of-the box thinking', not currently evident in RTE, RTENL, BCI, Government etc would seek to cash in on 'network' synergies:

    a) Ditch the whole commercial DTT business model; its a DODO anyway.

    b) Launch a two mux FTA DTT system. You don't actually need the UK channels as they are available via DTT overspill or Freesat. Combo boxes solve the cost , rights, transmission and regulation issues. Get real RTE, BCI, and Comreg otherwise its over.

    c) ALIGN the allocations so that there are no UK interference issues. At Mount Leinster broadcast on Ch 39 and the Group A channels. Why make people choose: because otherwise they will go to Freesat and RTE will NOT ever be on that EPG: end of story.

    d) Technology. You can launch in MPEG4. Just make sure the T2 boxes can decode MPEG4 T1 (easy, peasy...). Then everybody buys T2 TVs or cheap T2 zapper boxes (DTG say today they won't be that much more expensive than T1 boxes.)

    e) Maximise the convenience for the consumer. The completely sterile debate in Ireland over the last eleven years has gone nowhere.

    What would Sky do if they were only a DTT broadcaster? There is the answer...

    If they give the consumer what they want then the public can have a DTT box doing UK DTT and ROI DTT and HDTV: this is not rocket science


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  • #31
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 22,785 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    marclt wrote: »
    Isn't 49 still on it's pre DSO allocation of 1 or 2kw? Not due to be super-powered until 24th March 2010...

    it's the one that causes the most problems... be interesting to see if RTE try out that channel too?? Surely they'd be better looking at one with no allocation for miles...
    Oh I thought it was on 10kw ?


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